Do not hijack this by asking about someone other than Katelyn Touhy or NC State. This all NC State, all the time. No other runners or teams should bother getting a mention.
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Wolves and Aggies wrote:
Slo-Jo wrote:
I don't know. I am sometimes on the fence about her. The tactic of having Katelyn pace everyone yesterday was smart, but it would have worked equally well last year having Ellie pace her team mates to nationals. If she had, Katelyn likely would have qualified. I have wondered if she might have had a lapse in objectivity and let Katelyn fall because Katelyn might have gone to nationals and beaten Ellie. You can tell from interviews that Laurie Henes wanted that mother/daughter 5K champion narrative badly. Just a different perspective.
Katelyn seems to be the workhorse of this team. During the workout Wednesday segment, it was Katelyn forcing the pace when Sam Bush tried to slow down. Watching them all yesterday I had the feeling that they are all just super comfortable zoning out and tucking in behind Katelyn. Notice that they don't tend to run as well in races that she is not also in (thinking Sam Bush in the ACC 800 and then in the regional 1500). Bush even said in an interview that it was more fun in the ACC 5K because she had her team mates, but it was also easier because she had Katelyn. They have all reached a new level of running since Katelyn came back this past fall at 100% (super talents rising out of nowhere). That could be seen as a healthy team dynamic, but my suspicion lies in that Henes did not have her daughter Ellie play this role last year.
My concern about this is that Katelyn Touhy, although smart, seems like a "good girl" who readily follows the directions of those in charge. She has been described as super coachable a lot over the years, and in interviews she would often say things that seemed like she was parroting what her adults had told her. I hope she does not go into the final feeling obligated to take care of her team mates to the detriment of her own performance. She will have a lot to think about in that race, not the least of which is that her now fast enough team mates are going to also be gunning for her and have been trained to use her as their spring board to kicking time. The scenario that scares me, more than Nichols or Roe or Chalangnat, is that those 4 will work as a pack and take her down. I know that is a legit way the game is played, but if that happens I think it is worth examining the difference in approach when it is Katelyn leading versus Ellie. I also think that will really suck for her. This is just a different perspective based on podcasts and interviews and watching races over the past couple of years. I could be way off base, but I also know women, and all of the hearts and flowers of team love that they talk about kind of go out the window in 2 weeks. NC State has no chance of winning the team competition. This 5K is an individual race, and 5 competitive and talented girls are going for a win that they all want badly. Katelyn might be at a disadvantage here because they have been trained to use her. It will be those 4 versus her. She will be the one with no one to work off of.
I agree with FastTuohy on the first part of this. Katelyn was no where near Elly’s level last year. I do think it was a mistake to have KT double in the 1500/5k at Regionals last year. Not sure the reasoning behind that. Then there were reports some of the team including her were sick and that compromised things even more. Hmmm…Even with her leading the nation in both events right now they didn’t try that again this year. I think it’s curious they had Bush double though. Obviously it worked out well for her given what happened in the 1500 yesterday but it is curious to me. Hmmmm…That said, Slo-Jo brings up an interesting point about competition within a team especially a women’s team. Sometimes it is all puppies and rainbows on the outside and the reality is more cutthroat. Now I’m not an insider of any kind, just your basic track fan, but my gut feeling is KT is pretty savvy and knows the deal whatever it may be (puppies/rainbows or piranhas LOL) but I really think she is on a different level than her teammates in the 5k and this won’t be an issue at all. There are competitors from other teams of course. It is not likely to be a kickers race in that scenario and even if that happens, who is to say KT isn’t the best kicker at this point? Worst case scenario? If it plays out real ugly as Slo-Jo describes then there is this option going forward: Transfer Portal. I don’t see it happening like that at all but if it did, teams would be lined up to bring her on board.
I am certainly not on the inside of anything either. Just taking what I have seen and heard and wondering. If I was Steelman or Bush I would think I had a chance to win because, not doubling. If I was Starliper I would think 16:01 to 15:37 to maybe an NCAA title. Her interviews and blog posts suggest she is a dreamer, and it is not that far fetched. I get the impression that a bit of confidence goes a long way with her, and she definitely got that yesterday. I agree that KT seems to be on a different level to some extent, but the other four have the same training and just ran amazing and seem to be peaking at the right time. IF they decided to work together, that could bridge the gap. The ACC 5000 is why I think Touhy might not have the best kick. If her team mates can work together to stay as close as possible, one of them (Bush?) could outkick her. Who knows, but a wolfpack of 4 on stalking her is another factor that KT needs to seriously consider in her race plan. They know her weaknesses, and I don't think any of them are going in to do anything but win.
Maybe I have watched too much Survivor, but my understanding of human nature, at this point in my life, leads me to think the next 2 weeks at NC State might be tense. 5 talented runners training together to win an XC team title has got to be a very different feeling than 5 talented runners training together to race against each other in a cut throat race where only 1 person can win, and they all want it badly. How in the world does that work? What is the atmosphere like these next 2 weeks? I can't even imagine that. If anyone on here has experience with this and could shed light that would be cool.
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WA Covid report wrote:
Do not hijack this by asking about someone other than Katelyn Touhy or NC State. This all NC State, all the time. No other runners or teams should bother getting a mention.
Who are you to put rules in this thread?
AFAIK Anass is in the NCAA thing
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Dude you watch too much TV... It's not like that... I mean sure the vibe might be a little different than cross-country season but still... The only one who could have a decent shot too beat kaitlin would be bush if she has a great day and Tuohy doesnt... Obviously anything can happen n some of the other runners will certainly try to win might have a feeling that they have a shot ... but I'm just saying I don't think it's as cutthroat as you imply and I don't think they are like thinking they have to win or it's All or nothing.... a lot of them are happy probably just to have a shot to be all American and enjoy competing
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Also, my original statement was about Henes being a great coach. I recognize that the tactic used yesterday was smart for the program. My questioning is that if she coached those girls to use Katelyn as their pacer to get to nationals, and then those girls work together and one of them beats Katelyn for the title, from Katelyn's perspective Henes might suck.
I know runners use each other in a race. If her team mates did this on their own, that is just how it is. But Henes coached them to use Katelyn. If that turns out bad for Katelyn one could argue that Katelyn would have reason to feel ill used. And if that tactic is so smart, why didn't Ellie get tasked with pacing her team mates to nationals. Katelyn was not farther behind Ellie than these four girls were behind Katelyn. It seems off to me that suddenly when Henes is not thinking like a mother it's team first. Ellie ran regionals and nationals very much as an individual and pacing Katelyn did not seem to be part of the plan. Again, I could be wrong and overly cynical about fellow humans, but my gut feeling after the race yesterday was "yikes".
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Ezrun wrote:
Dude you watch too much TV... It's not like that... I mean sure the vibe might be a little different than cross-country season but still... The only one who could have a decent shot too beat kaitlin would be bush if she has a great day and Tuohy doesnt... Obviously anything can happen n some of the other runners will certainly try to win might have a feeling that they have a shot ... but I'm just saying I don't think it's as cutthroat as you imply and I don't think they are like thinking they have to win or it's All or nothing.... a lot of them are happy probably just to have a shot to be all American and enjoy competing
I am not claiming to be sitting on any inside information here. You might be right. I just don't think after yesterday Starliper thinks she can't win. Or Bush. I just am curious about how it is to be training alongside four other girls who are gunning for the same prize that you are. That just seems complicated. I don't think it is safe to assume they are all happy and chummy and carefree these next 2 weeks. Several of them could win, and they probably want it bad. Everything points to things being more tense than usual, and I wonder how that might affect them. That has to be difficult to manage.
And I am not a dude. :)
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Tuohy bush valby mercy NC state runner Nichols roe top 7!
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Bon jour.
Your man qualified for the final in 2 weeks. He was either 1 or 2 in his heat. He just missed advancing to nationals indoor.
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Slo-Jo wrote:
I am certainly not on the inside of anything either. Just taking what I have seen and heard and wondering. If I was Steelman or Bush I would think I had a chance to win because, not doubling. If I was Starliper I would think 16:01 to 15:37 to maybe an NCAA title. Her interviews and blog posts suggest she is a dreamer, and it is not that far fetched. I get the impression that a bit of confidence goes a long way with her, and she definitely got that yesterday. I agree that KT seems to be on a different level to some extent, but the other four have the same training and just ran amazing and seem to be peaking at the right time. IF they decided to work together, that could bridge the gap. The ACC 5000 is why I think Touhy might not have the best kick. If her team mates can work together to stay as close as possible, one of them (Bush?) could outkick her. Who knows, but a wolfpack of 4 on stalking her is another factor that KT needs to seriously consider in her race plan. They know her weaknesses, and I don't think any of them are going in to do anything but win.
Maybe I have watched too much Survivor, but my understanding of human nature, at this point in my life, leads me to think the next 2 weeks at NC State might be tense. 5 talented runners training together to win an XC team title has got to be a very different feeling than 5 talented runners training together to race against each other in a cut throat race where only 1 person can win, and they all want it badly. How in the world does that work? What is the atmosphere like these next 2 weeks? I can't even imagine that. If anyone on here has experience with this and could shed light that would be cool.
This part about the Wolfpack of 4 stalking KT is really freaking me out (Semihaze: please send for help!) I can see each athlete doing their best to win individually - sure but what kind of dynamic on a team would cause them to work together to defeat her? If that were really true then yikes!! Transfer Portal it is! Arkansas, BYU, Stanford, and even some of the teams that contend for Track championships but not necessarily XC like Florida, Texas. An all out NIL death match to get KT on their team - LOL!!
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Katelyn paced her teammates to Nationals, actually she could have made the race slow and just qualified without worrying about if others would qualify but she did not, because she's katelyn, she always thinks about her team~ Katelyn makes everyone around her better, very evident after she arrived at nc state, the entire program kept progressing as katelyn was progressing
Katelyn Tuohy is now becoming the leader for the wolfpack, even though shes the youngest in them right now~ she leads by example, she calls up huddles and group hugs after every race, comforts and picks up her teammates.
based on photos and clips:
shaw finished her best 5k race, bended and dropped on the ground, hannah finished and bended, looked up the scoreboard and she cried, katelyn comforted her and hugged her, and then sam bush finished and went to hannah to comfort her too, all three hugged then marlee starliper finished and dropped to the ground, katelyn and the staff picked marlee up and she hugged marlee, then marlee hugged sam, katelyn congratulated valby ... moments later katelyn called her wolfpack for a group hug and hannah was still crying (😭😭it means so much for her🥺)
idk about last year, it had different circumstances and maybe elly was not having a good day to pace her wolfpack or it wasnt even the plan or idk
all i know is that katelyn is very team-oriented and would do everything for her team, her teammates were thankful, and they all were liking my insta posts and stories~ 💕
katelyn viewed my ig stories too ☺️
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What the actual **** wrote:
Slo-Jo wrote:
I am certainly not on the inside of anything either. Just taking what I have seen and heard and wondering. If I was Steelman or Bush I would think I had a chance to win because, not doubling. If I was Starliper I would think 16:01 to 15:37 to maybe an NCAA title. Her interviews and blog posts suggest she is a dreamer, and it is not that far fetched. I get the impression that a bit of confidence goes a long way with her, and she definitely got that yesterday. I agree that KT seems to be on a different level to some extent, but the other four have the same training and just ran amazing and seem to be peaking at the right time. IF they decided to work together, that could bridge the gap. The ACC 5000 is why I think Touhy might not have the best kick. If her team mates can work together to stay as close as possible, one of them (Bush?) could outkick her. Who knows, but a wolfpack of 4 on stalking her is another factor that KT needs to seriously consider in her race plan. They know her weaknesses, and I don't think any of them are going in to do anything but win.
Maybe I have watched too much Survivor, but my understanding of human nature, at this point in my life, leads me to think the next 2 weeks at NC State might be tense. 5 talented runners training together to win an XC team title has got to be a very different feeling than 5 talented runners training together to race against each other in a cut throat race where only 1 person can win, and they all want it badly. How in the world does that work? What is the atmosphere like these next 2 weeks? I can't even imagine that. If anyone on here has experience with this and could shed light that would be cool.
This part about the Wolfpack of 4 stalking KT is really freaking me out (Semihaze: please send for help!) I can see each athlete doing their best to win individually - sure but what kind of dynamic on a team would cause them to work together to defeat her? If that were really true then yikes!! Transfer Portal it is! Arkansas, BYU, Stanford, and even some of the teams that contend for Track championships but not necessarily XC like Florida, Texas. An all out NIL death match to get KT on their team - LOL!!
Can everyone please stop! lol!!!! You all are watching to much tv or CNN Russia conspiracy theories that are not true. You all are making something that is nothing close to what is going on or is going to happen. It is very entertaining though!
Listen, I’m a Starliper fan, and there is no hope after two years of injury and her first season of racing at NC State and battling illness that she can beat KT right now. If she stays healthy this year, then you can worry. The only NC State runner that has a chance is Bush, but that is only if the race is slow, and that will not happen because the only chance Nicholls, Roe, or Mercy has is if they can run the kick out of Tuohy, which I don’t think will happen. It is kT’s race to win or lose. My money is she wins!
The reason this paranoia is so crazy is because you don’t understand the culture and why everyone is going and transferring to NC State. It is a family culture there, just ask the alumni!!!! Why do you think the two top distance recruits of 2020 went to NC State, and why Steelman, Hays, and Now Seymour transferred there? TEAM CULTURE!!!!!
When Starliper took the lead at ACC’s it’s because her teammates (KT, Bush, and Shaw) were exhausted from their prior races. She knew she was not going to win but they are trained to pack run and help each other. Now don’t be surprised if Starliper goes sub 15:30 and if she does it will only be good enough for maybe 4th or 5th. Tuohy will be gunning for the win and not worried about her teammates and her teammates are not plotting against her!!! And even if they were (and they are not), they are not good enough to pull it off right now.
Now everyone stop trying to break up and divide the Wolfpack like the media does to our great country! Peace ✌️
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Last year the whole team was off at regionals. Supposedly an illness was involved. Henes only had the eigth fastest time in the 5000m. Steeleman and Chmiel did not qualify. Katelyn ran a minute slower than her season best. Pacing was not the issue. Just a really bad day.
The dynamic will be the same as Indoor where Katelyn had two teammates in the 5000m and three in the 3000m. They are all going to try to run their best race. Katelyn will likeky pace it fast and what happens will happen. If she is on a good day then the red shirt senior Nichols is the only one I see going with her. Maybe it was four dimensional chess but Roe did not look great yesterday even running a 15:53. If the pace is slower and it comes down to a final kick in the last lap then Bush has a chance. But I think Katelyn's kick is going to be excellent. None of the others has her 1500 speed and I don't think we have seen her full 5000m kick yet.
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What the actual **** wrote:
Slo-Jo wrote:
I am certainly not on the inside of anything either. Just taking what I have seen and heard and wondering. If I was Steelman or Bush I would think I had a chance to win because, not doubling. If I was Starliper I would think 16:01 to 15:37 to maybe an NCAA title. Her interviews and blog posts suggest she is a dreamer, and it is not that far fetched. I get the impression that a bit of confidence goes a long way with her, and she definitely got that yesterday. I agree that KT seems to be on a different level to some extent, but the other four have the same training and just ran amazing and seem to be peaking at the right time. IF they decided to work together, that could bridge the gap. The ACC 5000 is why I think Touhy might not have the best kick. If her team mates can work together to stay as close as possible, one of them (Bush?) could outkick her. Who knows, but a wolfpack of 4 on stalking her is another factor that KT needs to seriously consider in her race plan. They know her weaknesses, and I don't think any of them are going in to do anything but win.
Maybe I have watched too much Survivor, but my understanding of human nature, at this point in my life, leads me to think the next 2 weeks at NC State might be tense. 5 talented runners training together to win an XC team title has got to be a very different feeling than 5 talented runners training together to race against each other in a cut throat race where only 1 person can win, and they all want it badly. How in the world does that work? What is the atmosphere like these next 2 weeks? I can't even imagine that. If anyone on here has experience with this and could shed light that would be cool.
This part about the Wolfpack of 4 stalking KT is really freaking me out (Semihaze: please send for help!) I can see each athlete doing their best to win individually - sure but what kind of dynamic on a team would cause them to work together to defeat her? If that were really true then yikes!! Transfer Portal it is! Arkansas, BYU, Stanford, and even some of the teams that contend for Track championships but not necessarily XC like Florida, Texas. An all out NIL death match to get KT on their team - LOL!!
I'm not saying it's personal. It is a good strategy for them. But I don't see how that won't generate hard feelings. Just saying. I have lived as a moderately competitive female on this planet for 4 decades. From my experience when a group of competitive women are going for the same individual goal (only one can win), and they say that it's "so not competitive" and they are really really rooting for each other - that rarely turns out to be the case. I cannot think of one single time in my life that has turned out to be entirely true. I just don't buy that they are happily training these next 2 weeks with no thoughts of taking each other down or no extra tension. If any of the other 4 are in striking distance of Touhy they will go for her because it's a high stakes competition. My whole point was that if they work together and one of them beats her, her coach encouraged her to help it happen and she would be justified in feeling a little upset (I think hitting the transfer portal would be extreme). I just see how track season could be a tough time for the "team first" mantra that NC State women talk of. There is no team competition here. It's every woman for herself, but the 5 of them have to train together to compete against each other and that seems complicated. Maybe it's not.
I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'm sorry.
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Slo-Jo wrote:
What the actual **** wrote:
This part about the Wolfpack of 4 stalking KT is really freaking me out (Semihaze: please send for help!) I can see each athlete doing their best to win individually - sure but what kind of dynamic on a team would cause them to work together to defeat her? If that were really true then yikes!! Transfer Portal it is! Arkansas, BYU, Stanford, and even some of the teams that contend for Track championships but not necessarily XC like Florida, Texas. An all out NIL death match to get KT on their team - LOL!!
I'm not saying it's personal. It is a good strategy for them. But I don't see how that won't generate hard feelings. Just saying. I have lived as a moderately competitive female on this planet for 4 decades. From my experience when a group of competitive women are going for the same individual goal (only one can win), and they say that it's "so not competitive" and they are really really rooting for each other - that rarely turns out to be the case. I cannot think of one single time in my life that has turned out to be entirely true. I just don't buy that they are happily training these next 2 weeks with no thoughts of taking each other down or no extra tension. If any of the other 4 are in striking distance of Touhy they will go for her because it's a high stakes competition. My whole point was that if they work together and one of them beats her, her coach encouraged her to help it happen and she would be justified in feeling a little upset (I think hitting the transfer portal would be extreme). I just see how track season could be a tough time for the "team first" mantra that NC State women talk of. There is no team competition here. It's every woman for herself, but the 5 of them have to train together to compete against each other and that seems complicated. Maybe it's not.
I didn't mean to hijack the thread. I'm sorry.
track indeed is a an individual sport, yes they do train together but prefer to train with each other and not against each other, races only has one winner yes you are correct, but it also depends on what is at stake and what race they are running, regionals are for qualifying and not really about winning a title but at a national meet, main goal is to win a title
this coming nationals katelyn and each of them will now be thinking of themselves and that is okay, and normal... i mean, the same thing went for the indoor nationals, there were four of them in the nationals, and ran their own race to win it or place as high as they can... this time its five
theres competition inside the team, its normal, sam bush has put somewhat a healthy competition against katelyn, and katelyn knows that, shes not numb, that is why katelyn developed a kick, a healthy competition inside a team is what makes everyone better, sam bush recently shared about how katelyn and kelsey's work ethic inspired her to be better in her interview, everyone on that team has said the same thing but it doesnt mean everyone will just stay behind them, of course they will try to beat them and thats normal and okay
did u know that sam bush and katelyn are basically classmates, katelyn is academically a junior student, same with sam bush and they are both business majors, they just finished their junior year
competition inside a team is normal, its the same thing in the pro ranks, btc, nb boston, on, adidas squads all have runners who compete against each other for a living but also training and living with each other .. idk why you are making a big deal out of this, its a normal thing that everyone experiences
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watching the race again and i may have let out a laugh or two every time valby tries to take the lead and katelyn was just chillin in the rail and was prob like "uh, stay in your lane.. this is my race and i will be the one pacing my wolfpack 😅"
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I think I should have used the sarcasm emoji.
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"can i come with you guys too" - seymour to nc state runners
hahah cant wait for the official confirmation of this transfer
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semihaze wrote:
"can i come with you guys too" - seymour to nc state runners
hahah cant wait for the official confirmation of this transfer
who's beating them next fall?
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katelyn was not joking when she said her instagram is an nc state fanpage, she posts more about the team than herself
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Slo-Jo wrote:
I don't know. I am sometimes on the fence about her. The tactic of having Katelyn pace everyone yesterday was smart, but it would have worked equally well last year having Ellie pace her team mates to nationals. If she had, Katelyn likely would have qualified. I have wondered if she might have had a lapse in objectivity and let Katelyn fall because Katelyn might have gone to nationals and beaten Ellie. You can tell from interviews that Laurie Henes wanted that mother/daughter 5K champion narrative badly. Just a different perspective.
Katelyn seems to be the workhorse of this team. During the workout Wednesday segment, it was Katelyn forcing the pace when Sam Bush tried to slow down. Watching them all yesterday I had the feeling that they are all just super comfortable zoning out and tucking in behind Katelyn. Notice that they don't tend to run as well in races that she is not also in (thinking Sam Bush in the ACC 800 and then in the regional 1500). Bush even said in an interview that it was more fun in the ACC 5K because she had her team mates, but it was also easier because she had Katelyn. They have all reached a new level of running since Katelyn came back this past fall at 100% (super talents rising out of nowhere). That could be seen as a healthy team dynamic, but my suspicion lies in that Henes did not have her daughter Ellie play this role last year.
My concern about this is that Katelyn Touhy, although smart, seems like a "good girl" who readily follows the directions of those in charge. She has been described as super coachable a lot over the years, and in interviews she would often say things that seemed like she was parroting what her adults had told her. I hope she does not go into the final feeling obligated to take care of her team mates to the detriment of her own performance. She will have a lot to think about in that race, not the least of which is that her now fast enough team mates are going to also be gunning for her and have been trained to use her as their spring board to kicking time. The scenario that scares me, more than Nichols or Roe or Chalangnat, is that those 4 will work as a pack and take her down. I know that is a legit way the game is played, but if that happens I think it is worth examining the difference in approach when it is Katelyn leading versus Ellie. I also think that will really suck for her. This is just a different perspective based on podcasts and interviews and watching races over the past couple of years. I could be way off base, but I also know women, and all of the hearts and flowers of team love that they talk about kind of go out the window in 2 weeks. NC State has no chance of winning the team competition. This 5K is an individual race, and 5 competitive and talented girls are going for a win that they all want badly. Katelyn might be at a disadvantage here because they have been trained to use her. It will be those 4 versus her. She will be the one with no one to work off of.
So are you intimating that perhaps Elly wasn’t good enough to win last year without being “set up” by mom? I have no doubt that Laurie wanted Elly to win and that may have been how the “narrative” looked, but Laurie would not have done that at the expense of her charges (the athletes including Tuohy) that she coached last year.
If anyone doubts the talents of Elly Henes, they only need to look at what she did this past weekend in Eugene. She was 6th in the 2 mile race won by Francine Niyonsaba. Elly finished in about 9:18. She was only about 4 seconds out of 2nd place which was claimed by Beatrice Chenet of Kenya. Elly’s time is one of the top 10 at 2 miles in US history. She is no slouch and will be one of the top US women in the upcoming years.
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