UPenn swimmer comes out as trans / switches to women's team after competing on men's team for 3 years and is dominating NCAA

I really want to see a big D1 school actively and publicly recruit only trans women. Could you image how unstoppable a basketball, soccer, or lacrosse team would be if the coach only fielded trans women and not a single cis woman?

I would 100% pay to see that. A program like Ucon or Tennesee for basketball or UNC for soccer come out and very publicly state they are only interested in giving scholarships to trans women. Bonus points if they actual state it is ok if the trans women are faking it just for the free education.

Hormone treatments worked almost perfectly in evening the playing field for Eastwood but I agree that won't always be the case and certainly not for Thomas.

However, that isn't the entire issue. This is from the judge's decision when the transgender athlete issue was litigated in 1977 (Plaintiff was Renee Richards and defendants was Women's Tennis Association):

"As indicated, this court finds defendants and each of them in violation of plaintiff's rights under the Human Rights Law and, accordingly, pursuant to subdivision 9 of section 297 thereof, plaintiff's application for a preliminary injunction is granted in all respects."

I don't know if other judges would have the same opinion but an occasional (only 1 in 10 years so far) championship level transgender athlete won't be enough to have the decision challenged.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

"The society as a whole has not figured out how to incorporate trans people into sports, and I think it will take a lot of trial and error before we settle down with sustainable arrangement."

What trial and error? The rules are already in place and society as a whole has nothing to do with it. Who are the parties to your "sustainable agreement"? If transgender athletes are to be banned from women's sports, it's going to happen through the courts.

Rules are already in place? No, they are changing constantly. IOC lifted the SRS requirement in 2015 (which might have been an error in hindsight) that opened the gate for many athletes who were not eligible before. IAAF (WA) cut the upper limit of testosterone by half. Now that we have seen Laurel Hubbard, IWF is likely to change their rule, but that will not affect other sports. World Rugby currently does not allow trans women in women's games, and some other sports may follow their model.

The parties in "sustainable arrangement" involves the sports governing bodies and athlete representatives. And the arrangement is sustainable when it can withstand legal challenges from both sides. Any attempt to ban all trans women from all women's sports is not likely to survive the CAS decision. Neither is attempt to allow every trans woman in women's sports solely based on self-identification. So those two arrangements are not sustainable under the current envioronment.

lasdjfodifj wrote:

I really want to see a big D1 school actively and publicly recruit only trans women. Could you image how unstoppable a basketball, soccer, or lacrosse team would be if the coach only fielded trans women and not a single cis woman?

I would 100% pay to see that. A program like Ucon or Tennesee for basketball or UNC for soccer come out and very publicly state they are only interested in giving scholarships to trans women. Bonus points if they actual state it is ok if the trans women are faking it just for the free education.

Yep, this.

The rules haven't changed for either the NCAA, USATF or other professional sports in the U.S.

I'm not sure what you mean by "self-indentification". Cheaters? There is no middle ground between banning transgender athletes or letting them compete. It would be like an agreement between pro-choice and pro-life.

jamb innnnn wrote:

lasdjfodifj wrote:

I really want to see a big D1 school actively and publicly recruit only trans women. Could you image how unstoppable a basketball, soccer, or lacrosse team would be if the coach only fielded trans women and not a single cis woman?

I would 100% pay to see that. A program like Ucon or Tennesee for basketball or UNC for soccer come out and very publicly state they are only interested in giving scholarships to trans women. Bonus points if they actual state it is ok if the trans women are faking it just for the free education.

Yep, this.

They could recruit 24/7 for months and still be lucky to find even one transgender athlete that could help their teams.

the world turned upside down wrote:

Would have scored 50 points in the Championships last year. As a team, Penn scored zero last year.

I'm sure the coaching is so much better. ;)

God this is sickening and such an egotistical display by Ms. Thomas. What selfishness.

What were her times as a man? Is she slowing down at all?

jamb innnnn wrote:

lasdjfodifj wrote:

I really want to see a big D1 school actively and publicly recruit only trans women. Could you image how unstoppable a basketball, soccer, or lacrosse team would be if the coach only fielded trans women and not a single cis woman?

I would 100% pay to see that. A program like Ucon or Tennesee for basketball or UNC for soccer come out and very publicly state they are only interested in giving scholarships to trans women. Bonus points if they actual state it is ok if the trans women are faking it just for the free education.

Yep, this.

That would be perfectly fine with the current ACLU. In fact, it seems a women's team consisting entirely of males would be the ACLU's ultimate dream team, one they'd consider a big win for "civil rights."

rojo wrote:

What were her times as a man? Is she slowing down at all?

200 Free … 1:39.31

500 Free … 4:18.72

1,000 Free … 8:55.75

1,650 Free … 14:54.76

200 IM … 1:56.51

400 IM … 4:32.55

RunRagged wrote:

jamb innnnn wrote:

Yep, this.

That would be perfectly fine with the current ACLU. In fact, it seems a women's team consisting entirely of males would be the ACLU's ultimate dream team, one they'd consider a big win for "civil rights."

https://youtu.be/ypn__RtqihI

That video says a team of all MtF athletes. "MtF" means "Male-to-female"

It would be an all-female team.

You need to learn how to read.

Could you imagine an all white male team winning the women’s ncaa women’s basketball championships? At that point when race is involved would people begin to realize the injustice of this?

UberTruth OnceAgain wrote:

Kind of a maven wrote:

Please do not refer to this troubled young man with any feminine pronouns. We should not perpetuate his self-delusion.

Agree completely. I would only add that, as obviously troubled as this young man is, he is not as mentally and/or emotionally disturbed as those in the NCAA who support this nonsense. What excuse do they have?

Troubled young man !!

Back to the 50’s again.

I suppose you think homosexuals can be cured.

rojo wrote:

the world turned upside down wrote:

Would have scored 50 points in the Championships last year. As a team, Penn scored zero last year.

I'm sure the coaching is so much better. ;)

God this is sickening and such an egotistical display by Ms. Thomas. What selfishness.

What were her times as a man? Is she slowing down at all?

Will Thomas. Lia Thomas

TOP TIMES

200 Free … 1:39.31. 1:41.93

500 Free … 4:18.72. 4:34

1,000 Free … 8:55.75

1,650 Free … 14:54.76. 15:59

200 IM … 1:56.51

400 IM … 4:32.55

Genesis 1:27 says

"So God created mankind in his own image,

in the image of God he created them;

male and female he created them."

Male and female distinction is a God made distinction. People cannot change genders. They are male or female from creation.

This Penn swimmer is a male by gender and by sex, because sex and gender are the same. Any Christian who says otherwise is speaking heresy.

If non-Christians believe that boys can be girls or whatever they want to be that can be their belief, but they are wrong and we should not accept their false worldview.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

The rules haven't changed for either the NCAA, USATF or other professional sports in the U.S.

I'm not sure what you mean by "self-indentification". Cheaters? There is no middle ground between banning transgender athletes or letting them compete. It would be like an agreement between pro-choice and pro-life.

The rules have changed for USATF. They follow the IAAF/WA rules. If some one is not eligible under the WA rule, that person will not be eligible for any USATF event. See the Telfer case at the Olympic Trial this year.

"Self-identification" means that a trans person can compete in the category of their choice without any medication or even medical diagnosis. Currently, a trans athlete in high school who does not need to take any medication still has to submit doctor's note to verify gender dysphoria. If you waive this requirement, you are likely to invite imposters.

There is no middle ground? That's like saying there is no middle ground in abortion. It's either total ban on abortion or abortion on demand, and nothing else is possible. You might want to become familiar with the current law.

Let's be more specific. What would be a possible compromise as to whether a transgender athlete can compete in NCAA sports?

Is anyone arguing there shouldn't be a medical sign-off for a HS transgender athlete. It's a very reasonable requirement. Regardless, there won't be imposters. Doing so would ruin their lives.

I don't follow your thoughts on abortion. Isn't there a now a big push for Roe v Wade to be overturned by the Supreme Court?

I don't think it would ruin their lives. They would obviously be faking it and most people would applaud the audacity. It isn't like anyone would believe they actually thought they were female. I mean, that is lunacy.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

Let's be more specific. What would be a possible compromise as to whether a transgender athlete can compete in NCAA sports?

Is anyone arguing there shouldn't be a medical sign-off for a HS transgender athlete. It's a very reasonable requirement. Regardless, there won't be imposters. Doing so would ruin their lives.

I don't follow your thoughts on abortion. Isn't there a now a big push for Roe v Wade to be overturned by the Supreme Court?

A possible compromise in NCAA sports could be what is currently in place for either WA or IOC. (i.e, requirement for suppressing the t-level below the max limit for extended period.) I don't think it is unreasonable to ask this. The school should be able to provide both the logistics of regular blood tests and the financial cost. Whether that is sufficient to level the playing field is uncertain. A step further would be to require sexual reassignment surgery. Technically, this shouldn't be a problem, either, since most NCAA athletes are 18 and over. The financial cost will be greater than blood tests, but the school can still pay for it.

My thought on abortion? While there are extreme people on both sides (who do not want any compromise with the other side), neither gets everything they want. Even the Mississippi law currently considered in the Supreme Court would allow abortion in the first 15 weeks. Even the Texas law, that is likely to be invalidated by the conservative Supreme Court, still allows abortion in the first six weeks. A complete ban on abortion under any circumstances has no chance of surviving legal challenge. Most of the hard core anti-abortion people know that, even if they don't like it.

And you are naive to think that elimination of medical sign-off will not invite imposters. There are many self-claimed "transgender" people who do not seem to have genuine gender dysphoria.

SDSU Aztec wrote:

There is no middle ground between banning transgender athletes or letting them compete. It would be like an agreement between pro-choice and pro-life.

Sure there's a middle ground. Other boys and men can make people like Lia Thomas, CeCe Telfer and June Eastwood feel welcome, at home and safe continuing to compete and share locker/change rooms, showers, toilets, overnight team sleeping arrangements, etc with others of their own sex. Boys and men can stop being dxcks and bullies to guys they regard as insufficiently manly.

A main reason that the entire onus for being "inclusive" is being placed on girls and women is because so many boys and men are intolerant of gender nonconformity amongst your own sex. And because even in 2021, too many guys even in the Western world remain uncomfortable with homosexuality - and much of the general public mistakenly assumes that most males who "identify as" women today are gay, when in fact the vast majority are heterosexual like most guys.

The UK Sports Council found in its recent extensive investigation into this issue that "Some current athletes and coaches described the inclusion of transgender people as being a genuine threat to the future of female sport. A summary of these views would be that women’s sport would be paying the price for men’s sport being unable, or unwilling, to be flexible and accommodating when it came to accepting transgender individuals."

Seems to me it's high time that guys form a "man up and show tolerance" movement aimed at getting members of the male sex to face up to, and take concerted steps to get over, the male prejudices and hostilities that make it so difficult for so many boys and men to be accepting and "inclusive" of those members of your own sex who wish they were girls/women and who prefer to dress, groom, wear their hair and think of/label themselves accordingly.

Men can also stiffen their backbones and show persons like Thomas, Telfer and Eastwood enough respect to treat them as intelligent grownups who are members of a plural society and thus shouldn't expect always to get their way and to have their every demand acceded to, instead of treating them toddlers who must be coddled and catered to constantly because they're supposedly too fragile and "dysphoric" to hear the word "no" without falling apart at the seams. Men can tell them frankly, "We understand that you'd prefer to be in women's sports and you really, really want to use the women's locker/change rooms, showers and toilets, but sorry you can't. It's not fair to girls and women. Girls and women don't want to have to compete against males, and it's wrong to tell them they must. And most girls and women are not keen on having to put up with dicks and balls, 'male entitlement' and 'the male gaze' in their locker change rooms, showers, toilets and such, either. But don't worry, we're more than happy to have you stay here with us, and we'll do all we can to make you feel safe, welcome and at home, and to make sure nobody mistreats you."