Tom “Tinman” Schwartz and Drew Hunter/Tinman Elite have parted ways

Not breaking the news wasn't an option. This news was out there. It had already broke. We deleted at least two threads on it, I was getting calls from other coaches about it and Wesly talked about it on instagram. We just confirmed it and tried to help the parties out by having them issue gracious statements. If I was them, I'd advice them to stay off of messageboard for a week. Some people like it, others don't. Not a big deal. Don't do what I"m doing here and letting some comment get you all triggered.

Hiding facts is not something we are going to do. We just paused on putting it out there for a while we tried to think about how to best do it. It was bizarre to me that the sponsor/agents hadn't stepped in and told someone statements need to be issued as there is no way to keep this from the public.

Let me repeat what I've said a million times on here. Judge me on this thread alone - not some crazy idea of how you think I'm a normal conservative. I'm not. I never voted for Trump, voted for Obama, am best friends with a former HRC speech writer, have been a registered Democrat for probably 20 years, know and like George W Bush personally, and thought Rush Limbaugh was brilliant. I'm a free thinker - not someone who is constrained by an idealogical algorithm - if you think x, you need to think y.

I can be for capitalism - but not like it's excesses - it's not that hard of a concept. And I've never argued for free-market nonsense. You just think I have as you know my dad worked for George W Bush. Please find one thread where that's true. But don't post it here as I want threads to stay on topic. Email me. I've always said I believe in capitalism as the other options never work but also am for the little guy.

Tammy, I have a lot of sympathy for your family's situation right now and suspect Tom will end up with a better group, more stability, and deservedly much higher pay pretty soon. He's the best coach of HS talent in US history and will do great things at the collegiate or (actual) pro level at the next stop I think. Any reasonable person looking at this drama comes away rooting for Mr. and Mrs. Tinman. I think some of the athletes seem to have a disease of social media obsession.

Former DIII wrote:

Tammy came on here and smeared DH and the rest of TME because she was upset about speculation on an anonymous message board.

Unfortunately, the anonymous message board is a major source of information for the running community, so it is smart to defend your friends and family, and it's admirable to identify yourself.

If you win gold medals, people talk about how your attention to detail is the difference. It is only when people run poorly that your a controll freak..

matthew02 wrote:

“There’s so much I have to say about this situation but largely it speaks to the lack of professionalism in running, that the coach of a group isn’t protected by contract, that the inmates can essentially run the asylum, and that an adult man’s mom is making statements on his/his team’s behalf.”

^^^^^ Nailed it.

Some people can deal with it, a lot of people can't. Also depends on the messenger.

As I’m a free thinker as dad said I could be

snake in the grass wrote:

I’m assuming Corey Leslie had something to do with it too. Dudes a snake.

Definitely a shady dude.

Here is a thought for folks to consider with this situation:

1) From what the article and subsequent comments have read, it sounds like this happened at some point in the last few weeks. Why does that matter?

You did not see Tom, Tammy, or anyone “in their camp” on here blasting TME. That is telling.

You also did not see a single WORD of it from anyone in the TME camp. No change to the website to remove Tom’s bio, the allusions to mantras associated with him, and so on. THAT is also telling.

2) We are talking about a multi-year relationship with an athlete who recruited other athletes to work with a coach in a more organized manner, the group then self-selected to take on their coaches moniker as a team name, they then profited off sales of the brand that they - admittedly - built themselves BUT did so do while continuing to use that name, and ultimately they give the coach the boot. And somehow that coach is supposed to be ok with that?

If this happened anything longer than ~2-3 days before this story broke and Tom, Tammy, etc had otherwise remained quiet, then that - to me - is indicative of what side of this story is likely acting with integrity and which side is likely to come out appearing to have a lack thereof once all sides have been heard (see #1 above).

3) Letsrun stated they reached out to both parties to confirm. If you read the article, one party provides what they believe to be the facts in some relative detail and it is directly from the individual involved; the other party involved issues a statement from a team rep, offers no details, and does not even attempt to address the obvious issue of “How are you going to have a team name and brand that uses the name of someone that you kicked out?”. Unless that quote was a complete chop-job, highly edited down by Letsrun to make one side come out looking bad (doubtful), then I think the nature of what both parties have been willing to make public when asked about it is EXTREMELY TELLING.

4) These are not children. The only child involved in this picture is that of Tom and Tammy who was moved with them from Idaho to Colorado. Ascribing a certain level of understating to their apparent actions on the basis of their age is unwise, at best. The youngest member of the team appears to be Drew Hunter himself at 23 years old. For most of human history until the last century or so that would have been old enough to qualify you for a mid-life crisis. I had a grandfather who at 16 lied about his age to join the USAF and partake in bombing missions against the Nazis. The actions of the TME should not be viewed through any kind of lens that even remotely takes their age into account. They are grown men. To treat or view this situation with any kind of “kid” gloves would actually be disrespectful to the fact that they are adults.

5) I can admit my bias in that I was coached by Tom more than a decade ago. The man offered a ton of himself to help me improve as a runner and realize dreams that early on in my running seemed impossible. I think the world of the man for that, though I have not seen him in years. I have met only 1 of the TME crew in person and it was in passing; other than that, they wouldn’t know me from Adam. So take #1-4 above with a grain of salt, but at least consider those points and #6 below for what they’re worth.

6) The last thing I feel compelled to write here is to just ask the obvious question: how often is the party “in the right” the one that does not want information to be disseminated and keeps quiet about details of a situation when something major, deeply personal has happened? How often is the person “in the wrong” the one who runs to the press to bring the situation to light?

It is my experience that the right usually love the light, and the wrong usually prefer to operate in the dark.

I’ll await more information to become public from both sides before I make my mind up fully on what to think of all this, but as you can likely tell, it is my personal opinion that a certain burden of proof lie on the TME squad to explain what in the world is going on.

I'm pretty neutral on TME (like Drew Hunter & the original guys, get a little annoyed at the hype here and there), but doesn't seem like anyone is too obviously in the wrong here IMO. If I was an adult on a pro running team and my coach was sitting me down to tell me I shouldn't be using obscenities, I'd probably get pretty pissed off.

Yes, the name thing is unsavory, but the team has also put quite a lot of work into growing that brand and it doesn't seem like they should need to lose it because Schwartz didn't bother with a contract. Also, Adidas probably doesn't want a change. Building off of that, the team has built Tinman's name considerably. Before TME, a number of people on Letsrun knew Tinman, but now just about any high school kid who is at all interested in elite running knows the name. Any group Tinman starts with his name is now going to benefit off of the team's social media and brand-building prowess, and I'd imagine Tinman can make more off of private coaching now. Not sure if that'll translate to other jobs and I feel for Schwartz and his family, but pro and semi-pro teams are about the athletes first and foremost, especially in this case when the athletes have done a lot to build the team into what it is.

I hope someone compensates Tinman for what he's done and I hope both parties are able to figure out an amiable way to continue to benefit off of the group and the name.

Is Cory Leslie paid by adidas too then? He walked away from ASU position for this one and is longtime friends with Drew. Seems trouble started when he became involved; everybody loves the assistant when race results aren’t good and injuries abound.

boymeetsworld wrote:

If I was an adult on a pro running team and my coach was sitting me down to tell me I shouldn't be using obscenities, I'd probably get pretty pissed off.

Why?

Anyone notice that Sam Parsons and Jordan Gusman are listed running under Adidas while Reed Fisher is listed under adidas/Tinman Elite.

Goes to show who the snakes are in that group...

I wondered the same thing when I read that.

You represent more than just yourself. When you run for a team, you represent the group and those who are a part of it.

When that group chooses to plaster the name of someone who may disagree with excessive profanity, why would they not be allowed to demand that not be something that represents them?

Go work for almost any other organization, act in those ways and use profanity in public ways when you are “on the clock” and see how your boss responds...

The Dirty Duck wrote:

Former DIII wrote:

Tammy came on here and smeared DH and the rest of TME because she was upset about speculation on an anonymous message board.

Unfortunately, the anonymous message board is a major source of information for the running community, so it is smart to defend your friends and family, and it's admirable to identify yourself.

It seems like Tammy is upset at TME for the things posted here and is seeking retaliation against those individuals for the speculation on this thread. That's the point I am trying to make. TME did not ask for this thread to get out of hand, however wrongly they may have handled the situation.

Former DIII wrote:

The Dirty Duck wrote:

Unfortunately, the anonymous message board is a major source of information for the running community, so it is smart to defend your friends and family, and it's admirable to identify yourself.

It seems like Tammy is upset at TME for the things posted here and is seeking retaliation against those individuals for the speculation on this thread. That's the point I am trying to make. TME did not ask for this thread to get out of hand, however wrongly they may have handled the situation.

They asked for it by saying absolutely nothing. This is a messageboard. In the absence of facts it is EXPECTED that we will speculate. The best way to avoid speculation is to tell us the actual facts. We've heard nothing from TME, so all we can do is speculate.

Points to be made wrote:

I wondered the same thing when I read that.

You represent more than just yourself. When you run for a team, you represent the group and those who are a part of it.

When that group chooses to plaster the name of someone who may disagree with excessive profanity, why would they not be allowed to demand that not be something that represents them?

Go work for almost any other organization, act in those ways and use profanity in public ways when you are “on the clock” and see how your boss responds...

Unfortunately in this set-up, DREW is the boss, and Tinman is the lowly employee. That's why this set-up was rotten from the start. The power dynamic was completely inverted.

Did Boulder bust them for the no more than 3 unrelateds rule?

` wrote:

Points to be made wrote:

I wondered the same thing when I read that.

You represent more than just yourself. When you run for a team, you represent the group and those who are a part of it.

When that group chooses to plaster the name of someone who may disagree with excessive profanity, why would they not be allowed to demand that not be something that represents them?

Go work for almost any other organization, act in those ways and use profanity in public ways when you are “on the clock” and see how your boss responds...

Unfortunately in this set-up, DREW is the boss, and Tinman is the lowly employee. That's why this set-up was rotten from the start. The power dynamic was completely inverted.

True. But also, kind of the point... the singlet doesn’t say “Hunter Elite”. So if you are going to selectively choose to use someone else’s name, be ready for pushback if you do things that are misaligned from that persons beliefs.