long run wrote:
Listened to an old Runners World podcast where Shalane is giving an interview right before the 2017 Boston Marathon.
They asked her how she would feel if another American (someone like Desi) would beat her to becoming the first woman to win Boston since Rainsberger.
Her response was very telling.
Do tell...
What you buy isn't really relevant. It is clear from USADA's leaked report that Magness was instructed by Salazar to find a method that was WADA legal. That is evidence based. We could probably call it "Magness' prohibited method" or "Dr. Brown's prohibited method", but you called it "Salazar's prohibited method". Unless you have other evidence, that you have not produced despite three opportunities to do so, that Salazar subsequently gave contradictory instructions, your simple solution is also a logical fallacy, assuming the conclusion (or begging the question).The 29% and 45% figures I used come directly from the report. I double checked and 29% is not my mistake. When I mentioned it, I asked you to compare the two numbers with each other, in the context of showing that significant differences exist when looking at different populations:"Notably, we saw significantly higher figures in the Pan-Arab Games survey (unlikely to include Americans) of 45%, compared to the World Championship survey of 29%." The point should have been clear from the context: "we lack a great deal of information about the distribution of the self-confessed dopers (e.g. by nationality, by gender, or by event)," Using 43.6% and 57.1% support the same conclusion that significant differences exist when you change the population you are looking at.OK you are right -- the survey question specified prohibited substances and prohibited methods. That eliminates one of the uncertainties I specified, but not all of them. The original point stands -- we know, based on other evidence, that prevalence can vary widely by event and by nationality, and global averages from the two surveys are not necessarily representative of the subset of distance events including Rupp, Jager, and Farah.Your "likely doping" example is also too small a subset to be statistically interesting. In fact, it was Fancy Bear's intention to be statistically misleading. It was cherry-picked evidence specifically selected to make the rest of the world look as bad as Russia. The evidence I used to show countries and events, based on the 12 years of the IAAF "leaked blood data", can be found here:http://features.thesundaytimes.co.uk/web/public/2015/the-doping-scandal/index.html#/Great Britain is in the list, at 4%, but unfortunately the United States is not listed. That could mean that they are below 2%, below the cutoff, or were omitted by the UK publication for some other reason. It's not necessary, but I would guess that the United States compares to most European countries, Canada, Great Britain, Australia, based on cultural similarities, and performance similarities, and testing similarities, and lacking any evidence to the contrary. But I don't need this assumption to support with evidence that prevalence varies greatly by nation.Your argument fails, if American and British male distance running prevalences are not the Daegu WCH global average. For you to support your argument with the 44% figure you derived from Daegu, you need to show that 44% reasonably applies to American and British male distance runner respondents self-confessing doping, because contradictory evidence exists showing large variance by country and by event. Similarly, the 14% average you used is a global average, where we have seen evidence that Russia is 30%, while Great Britain is 4%. So conclusions like "it is far more likely that Jager and Rupp and Farah are drug cheats than that even one of them is not" are very far from supported, with certainty and confidence, by the evidence you rely on.Word of advice: practice what you preach.
casual obsever wrote:
rekrunner wrote:You failed to understand the concern. If it's clear in the WADA statutes, and given Alberto's expressly stated instruction to find a way to infuse that is "of course, WADA legal", how did it transpire that a "WADA illegal" infusion could have occurred?
No, I just don't buy your statement as an argument. The solution is simple: Salazar just pretended to not want to break any WADA rules. Just like he didn't mind breaking customs, USATF, and prescription rules.
rekrunner wrote:
Again you fail to understand. The point was that by changing populations, we get significantly different prevalence results. The Pan Arab games values are consistently 15 percentage points higher than the World Championship.
If the 29% (which were wrong) weren't your point, why did you - mistakenly - mention it?
That the PAG values were higher, is irrelevant for my argument regarding the 44% of the Daegu dopers. So I understood, but considered it pointless.
rekrunner wrote:
Again, you fail to understand, despite the clear example I gave. A failure to consistently update whereabouts, would also be a breach of anti-doping rules, and therefore require a "yes" answer to the question included in the survey, yet technically not doping, or triggering an ABP threshold.
I understood you the first time, but you were simply wrong with your "clear example". Now that you repeated your wrong statement despite my polite correction, I have to say that you are plainly lying again. As per usual. Again, read the study. The question was not just about any "breach of anti-doping rules", but it was, I cite directly from the study I linked earlier for your convenience (which you ignored of course):
"Have you knowingly violated anti-doping regulations by using a prohibited substance or method in the last 12 months?"
And a "failure to consistently update whereabouts" is obviously not a breach by using a prohibited substance or method. Stop making up all this nonsense.
rekrunner wrote:
I clearly indicated American and English male distance runners, as a hypothetical example. For the reasons expressed above, I expect the prevalence for sprinters, and distance runners to be different, as well as Americans and British from the general population, where other prevalence figures show countries like Russia, Turkey, Greece, and Morocco leading the statistics.
You came up with a "hypothetical example", yes, but it is exactly that, so not exactly an argument.
As for how realistic that is? It is a fact that 3/4 of the Americans on IAAF's likely doping list were male distance runners. Try working with facts for a change, not hypotheses or lies.
One German was on there, no French, no female American, no American mid-distance runners, no female Brit, no female German and so on.
"Russia, Turkey, Greece, and Morocco leading the statistics"?
On that list:
Russia: 0
Turkey: 1
Greece: 1
Morocco: 1
UK: 1 (Mo Farah, i.e. a male distance runner)
USA: 4 (including 3 male distance runners)
And the most suspicious of them, according to the IAAF scale, is an American male distance runner. So again, your hypothesis that American and British distance runners are particularly clean is not based on facts.
Word of advice: instead of making up stuff again, just look at the evidence.
The extent of my post was to correct your misstatement and misleading statement. It was not defensive.You've said multiple times that that "lab report" says or shows "testosterone", e.g. "a lab report showing that Salazar already had him on testosterone when he was in high school" and "But you know that's not what the lab report said, right?" "lab report" is a bit generous. The photo clearly shows "testosterone medication" and does not clearly show "testosterone". Factual accuracy is not needless.Now that we've seen the letter from his parents, who are "licensed healthcare providers" and were "keenly aware and involved" and "diligent in understanding the exact content and purpose of any supplement", this looks like there is at least one reason to think that he was clean in high school.
The Nike Androgen Project wrote:
rekrunner wrote:When you look at the photo, it is clearly recorded as "testosterone medication".
While it is "clearly recorded" the meaning is ambiguous. T-supplements could be interpreted as "medication for testosterone".
Assume for a second that he is doping today. Would you agree then that there is no reason to think that he was clean in high school.
That was the extent of my point, directed to the guy who felt that his high school success proves his innocence today.
You are getting needlessly defensive.
rekrunner wrote:
The extent of my post was to correct your misstatement and misleading statement. It was not defensive.
You've said multiple times that that "lab report" says or shows "testosterone", e.g. "a lab report showing that Salazar already had him on testosterone when he was in high school" and "But you know that's not what the lab report said, right?" "lab report" is a bit generous. The photo clearly shows "testosterone medication" and does not clearly show "testosterone". Factual accuracy is not needless.
Now that we've seen the letter from his parents, who are "licensed healthcare providers" and were "keenly aware and involved" and "diligent in understanding the exact content and purpose of any supplement", this looks like there is at least one reason to think that he was clean in high school.
The Nike Androgen Project wrote:Assume for a second that he is doping today. Would you agree then that there is no reason to think that he was clean in high school.
That was the extent of my point, directed to the guy who felt that his high school success proves his innocence today.
You are getting needlessly defensive.
Hang on for moment, the pic clearly shows "prednisone and testosterone" what other major sportswear company employs a professional coach and sports science to monitor this in a high school kid? At 16!! He was living in an altitude tent too. This is a very long way away from normal. Now I am normally the worst on here for assuming the worst but in this case a very healthy dose of scepticism is justified.
Look again at the pic -- specifically how the sentence wraps around to the next line.
Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:
Hang on for moment, the pic clearly shows "prednisone and testosterone" what other major sportswear company employs a professional coach and sports science to monitor this in a high school kid? At 16!! He was living in an altitude tent too. This is a very long way away from normal. Now I am normally the worst on here for assuming the worst but in this case a very healthy dose of scepticism is justified.
+1
Monitored? This 16-year old received "prednisone and testosterone medication"...
@rekrunner: cool link. However, Greece and Turkey and Morocco that you blamed so much are also missing in that comparison of country-by-country.
And I'd argue that we are much more successful in (male distance ;-) ) running than Germany or France. I could also point out that most major drug scandals are Russian or American (plus Aden, if one views his vitamins as drugs ;-) ), see Seoul, LA, Balco, Armstrong, to name a few, but never mind. That would be like talking to a wall.
In any case, I'll bring your link next time when you claim that athletics is so much cleaner than cycling, see for example:
"In the last comparable year, 2010, the number of extreme [abnormal blood test] results in athletics was about three times higher than in cycling."
casual obsever wrote:
In any case, I'll bring your link next time when you claim that athletics is so much cleaner than cycling, see for example:
"In the last comparable year, 2010, the number of extreme [abnormal blood test] results in athletics was about three times higher than in cycling."
Steve Ovett told his son to switch to cycling because it was cleaner than running.
Greece, Turkey, and Morocco can be found by clicking the flags above the table, as well as Ukraine, Romania and more.
If I recall (I'm typing from a phone now) the comparison to cycling looked at RET%, and not HR-off score. Not sure if that 3x holds for off score too but guessing it doesn't since they changed the metric. In any case, I don't argue that running is cleaner as much as arguing about the potential magnitude of performance improvements possible from blood doping for elite runners. Running can be as dirty as you want, but the actual performance of athletes from five continents for two decades should indicate any potential game changing effectiveness.
Would Meb have felt more confident in Rupp’s victory had Kirui closed him down in the final stages only to inexplicably fall off the pace ala Meb’s phony Boston win?
Meb’s foolish statements here are reminiscent of his complaints about Rupp hawking him in the Trials Marathon when video shows Meb doing the exact same thing earlier in the race. Seems like sour grapes from a washed up has been. No wonder Wejo is such a fan.
Sketchy Meb wrote:
Would Meb have felt more confident in Rupp’s victory had Kirui closed him down in the final stages only to inexplicably fall off the pace ala Meb’s phony Boston win?
Meb’s foolish statements here are reminiscent of his complaints about Rupp hawking him in the Trials Marathon when video shows Meb doing the exact same thing earlier in the race. Seems like sour grapes from a washed up has been. No wonder Wejo is such a fan.
Your post doesn’t make any sense because Meb didn’t make any foolish statements.
If you did, the wall would ask about East Germany, Ma's girls in China, Ferrari and Fuentes for cyclists worldwide, and wonder about all this gossip about the IAAF "leaked blood", and lack of blood testing in East Africa meant.
casual obsever wrote:
And I'd argue that we are much more successful in (male distance ;-) ) running than Germany or France. I could also point out that most major drug scandals are Russian or American (plus Aden, if one views his vitamins as drugs ;-) ), see Seoul, LA, Balco, Armstrong, to name a few, but never mind. That would be like talking to a wall.
No medical professional refers to testoboost as medication. It's either considered a supplement or a fake health product. You know what they do refer to as testosterone medication? That's right, Androgel -- the stuff that Salazar admittedly uses on himself and tested on his sons to see how much could be applied without triggering a positive lab test.
Is that factually correct enough for your exacting standards?
LRC vett wrote:
Sketchy Meb wrote:Would Meb have felt more confident in Rupp’s victory had Kirui closed him down in the final stages only to inexplicably fall off the pace ala Meb’s phony Boston win?
Meb’s foolish statements here are reminiscent of his complaints about Rupp hawking him in the Trials Marathon when video shows Meb doing the exact same thing earlier in the race. Seems like sour grapes from a washed up has been. No wonder Wejo is such a fan.
Your post doesn’t make any sense because Meb didn’t make any foolish statements.
Yes he did. He, as Sketchy Meb correctly pointed out, revealed himself as a sore loser. He has too large of an ego and it is ugly when it rears its head through jealous public comments.
Kara would have won the 3rd Olympic sport , but Shalane convince Amy to give much less than her best , to pull her along and carry water bottles for her. very selfish and unethical of Shalane during your countries Olympic trials.
Maybe. I'm not sure what makes you an expert on medical professionals.
The notation was written in a logbook by an exercise physiologist.
The Nike Androgen Project wrote:
No medical professional refers to testoboost as medication. It's either considered a supplement or a fake health product. You know what they do refer to as testosterone medication? That's right, Androgel -- the stuff that Salazar admittedly uses on himself and tested on his sons to see how much could be applied without triggering a positive lab test.
Is that factually correct enough for your exacting standards?
I looked into testosterone boosting type supplements and all they are is a combo of zinc and magnesium with b, d, etc and k vitamins.
Googling "testosterone medication" gave me the following links:
https://www.webmd.com/men/guide/testosterone-replacement-therapy-is-it-right-for-you#1
https://www.goodrx.com/testosterone-replacement/drugs
https://www.drugs.com/testosterone.html
https://www.drugwatch.com/testosterone/supplements/
https://www.everydayhealth.com/drugs/testosterone
https://www.medicinenet.com/testosterone_gel-topical/article.htm
https://medlineplus.gov/druginfo/meds/a614041.html
...
Doesn't exactly look innocent, but yeah, let's spin it until there is nothing to see.
The great thing about Google is you can always find support for whatever you want to say.But don't let me stop this spinning merry-go-round. "Runner's World" researched this and here is what they had to say at the time about the question: "What Does “Testosterone Medication†Mean?", including quotes from two "medical professionals" who were puzzled by the odd phrasing of unnecessarily adding the word "medication", if that is what was meant, and with one doctor doubting "if it was written by a doctor", because of the "layman way" it was written:https://www.runnersworld.com/elite-runners/what-does-testosterone-medication-meanMore corroborating evidence supporting the interpretation of testosterone boosting legal "supplements":- Testimony from other NOP athletes, like Josh Rohatinsky, claiming there were only ever asked by Alberto to take supplements Testoboost and Alpha Male, and never asked to take testosterone and never personally saw, or had any personal direct knowledge of, other athletes taking testosterone.- Letter from Galen's parents, who were "licensed health care providers", "keenly aware and involved", and "diligent in understanding the exact content and purpose of any supplement" their 16-year old son was taking.
casual obsever wrote:
Googling "testosterone medication" gave me the following links:
...
Doesn't exactly look innocent, but yeah, let's spin it until there is nothing to see.
Bullet_Proof wrote:
LRC vett wrote:Your post doesn’t make any sense because Meb didn’t make any foolish statements.
Yes he did. He, as Sketchy Meb correctly pointed out, revealed himself as a sore loser. He has too large of an ego and it is ugly when it rears its head through jealous public comments.
False.
That DEPO-testosterone is really cheap, $12 a box/packet.