jemima sumgong went from being a 2.29 marathon runner ,to 2.20.are these improvements normal for an EPO user?

Sorry, I did a mistake typing, so I continue from my previous post.

The difference of 423 seconds represents 5,73 % of the time, compared with the WR, and can't give us any info about the hypothesis that ALL THE BEST ARE DOPED.

If we go to see the athletes in top 100 all-time, we can find only 2 who were banned for doping in their life : Wilson Loyanai Erupe (n. 38 with 2:05:13) and Abderrahim Goumri (n. 50 with 2:05:30). But the case of Wilson Erupe can increase the doubts that EPO works, looking at his career :

Wilson Erupe (born in Turkana in 1988) : these are all his competitions :

15 May 2011 : 2:13:00 (1) Mombasa

16 Oct 2011 : 2:09:23 (1) Gongju (Korea)

18 Mar 2012 : 2:05:37 (1) Seoul

19 Aug 2012 : 1:01:46 (1) Rio de Janeiro (HM)

21 Oct 2012 : 2:06:46 (1) Gongju

13 Jan 2013 : 1:02:12 (3) Houston (HM)

He was tested positive for EPO in this competition, receiving a ban of 2 years. When he came back these were his marathons :

15 Mar 2015 : 2:06:14 (1) Seoul

11 Oct 2015 : 2:07:01 (1) Gongju

20 Mar 2016 : 2:05:13 (1) Seoul

16 Oct 2016 : 2:08:52 (5) Gongju

19 Mar 2017 : 2:06:27 (5) Seoul

How it's possible to see, all his career was in Korea, since he had a good contract with a local club for running the most important Korean marathons.

But the funny fact is that, when he was caught for EPO, HE RAN HIS WORST ROAD RACE EVER.

His case was very strange, since he had EPO from the doctors of Eldoret hospital when, at the beginning of November 2012, he had malaria, and doctors wanted to improve the level of Hb (that was under 10) giving EPO.

This is a normal praxis in African Country in case of REAL malaria, but it was not possible to do any exception. And, at the end, Wilson ran his PB after 3 and half years from his unintentional doping, so disn't have any advantage from the assumption of EPO.

This means that 99 athletes in top 100 all-time NEVER WERE POSITIVE, and it's difficult, looking at this fact, to think that, WITHOUT DOPING, it's not possible to run under 2:10.

If many of you don't accept my opinion that EPO doesn't work for the top runners born, living and training in altitude, if they have proper training, I think you have at least to accept the idea that is possible to run at the top WITHOUT EPO. This is what the practice says, and this is what the best coaches working with top Kenyans and Ethiopians well know.

Renato Canova wrote:

Subway, maybe you didn't understand my thought.

I think there’s a simple way to eliminate this type of a misunderstanding. Since we know that EPO only works on slower runners, we should simply take the top ten fastest runners and declare that EPO does not work on them. Obviously, this will have to be a moving window, since as some runners get faster and break into the top ten, the slower runners will fall out and EPO will start working for them again. Until they get back into the top ten, at which point EPO becomes ineffective again.

Would that be an acceptable compromise?

Renato Canova wrote:

But the funny fact is that, when he was caught for EPO, HE RAN HIS WORST ROAD RACE EVER.

His case was very strange, since he had EPO from the doctors of Eldoret hospital when, at the beginning of November 2012, he had malaria, and doctors wanted to improve the level of Hb (that was under 10) giving EPO.

This is a normal praxis in African Country in case of REAL malaria, but it was not possible to do any exception. And, at the end, Wilson ran his PB after 3 and half years from his unintentional doping, so disn't have any advantage from the assumption of EPO.

That's one of the most annoying thing a cheat apologist can do: make the ridiculous assertion that when a filthy cheat gets caught, that's the only time in their career they doped.

They're cheats, that's what they do. Given Renato knows as well as anyone just how hard it is for a Kenyan to test positive for EPO, it's even more stupid.

retardo enough....your best bet is to just stop. its annoying, your a fraud and a liar. you are the don king of distance running. you are a con man, a crook, and a piece of sh*t. your like the pimp in the ghetto who is also the local pastor.

your like the bishop who claims catholic priest pedophilia doesnt exist. enough is enough. i get greatly annoyed when i have to scroll down FOR EVER to get passed your bull$hit (and vents as well). your writing style is pathetic, your excuses are mind boggling asinine, and yet somehow you still have people who worship you.

the harder you push saying EPO doesnt work on "elites" the worse off this charade will become. im not an idiot, others on here arnt either but yet you blast on and on like we are tin foil hat morons. you dope your athletes to make MONEY, that is the root of all lies and bull$hit the world over. if you can convince blojo and WADA etc that EPO doesnt work on your "elites" then they will stop going after you, and then you can resume doping.

"well another high profile kenyan failed an EPO test, but since Retardo Canova has shown us the light the EPO doesnt work on elite kenyans, then there will be no ban"

thats what i see coming from all this, your an a$$hole, a crook, liar, con and you need to be put away from this sport.

Mindweak, there is some mental hospital near your home ? If there is, I suggest you to go for some deep investigation, because you have some problem. If there is not, I suggest you to find one of them in any part of US, because I'm really worry for your mental diseases.

Only people who don't want to learn from facts and data (what I wrote above are not opinions, but facts and data) can refuse to accept and to discuss the reality, creating in their weak and sick minds every kind of conspiracy theories.

I have a question for you : looking at the fact that in the best runners all-time (men) only one (or two, if you want to include Erupe) were caught for EPO, which is the base of your conviction that is not possible to run fast without doping ? Please, try to explain without insulting why you think everybody uses EPO. I can understand you don't think EPO doesn't improve performances, since there is some proof (also if connected with different level of subjects) that doped people ran fast. But tell us your proof that without EPO is not possible running fast, that means that 99 top athletes every 100 are so smart, and scientifically so supported, than can dribble the tests (BECAUSE THE OOC TESTS THERE ARE), while athletes with very much more money and scientific support in other events are regularly caught in the most part of Countries in the World.

Renato Canova wrote:

But tell us your proof that without EPO is not possible running fast, that means that 99 top athletes every 100 are so smart, and scientifically so supported, than can dribble the tests (BECAUSE THE OOC TESTS THERE ARE), while athletes with very much more money and scientific support in other events are regularly caught in the most part of Countries in the World.

Renato, I believe in what you say, but in this forum there is a continuos discussion only on EPO, but there are other substances, often not detectable.

In the end, there are rules, based on controls, if you are negative you are clean, if you are positive you are doped, very simple.

Other arguments are only a question of faith, i don't believe so much, that high professional sport is so clean, because there are ways of administering and substances that are not detectable, but we can't accuse anyone only because antidoping system doesn't work perfectly.

I understand what you are saying but I am saying that in some events like 800m mid-1:43 might be a time that runners do once when in their peak shape and never get close to this again (and in many cases are never seen of again) whereas miler-types turn up and run 1:44 x3 in a championship and win a medal in a tactical-ish final.

In the 1500m the Olympic record is 3:32. Often athletes capable of doing 3:28-3:31 struggle to race faster than 3:34 without pacemaking. Hence the reason I still consider 3:32 as elite, it is also the equivalent of a 3:49 mile. Often unless the race is in Southern Europe/Mediterranean countries, in big stadiums, times like 3:32 are considered very competitive (this again can be reiterated across all distance events).

5000m has changed, I wonder why? But 15 years ago 13:00 was uncompetitive as a PB, now it is competitive again, especially if you can run near it regularly.

10000m is disappearing, like the mile. I think we are at an inflection point were soon 10k road times are more relevant. What the difference between 10000m on track in spikes compares to 10k on the roads is debatable, 10s would be fair. There is not many sub 27min men out there at the moment, maybe 8 (including Kipchoge and maybe Bekele or Choge). That is not many elites.

I think that sub-2:10 is elite for two reasons; because there are so many city marathons around the world in developed/westernized cities that someone who consistently runs 2:09 can do very well and can earn an income solely from running them (almost at least). Also because marathons are a feat of human endurance, with the wall factor, it is not realistic to say 2:09ish isn't elite but the 100m equivalent (10.1s) is.

Renato Canova wrote:

But tell us your proof that without EPO is not possible running fast, that means that 99 top athletes every 100 are so smart, and scientifically so supported, than can dribble the tests (BECAUSE THE OOC TESTS THERE ARE), while athletes with very much more money and scientific support in other events are regularly caught in the most part of Countries in the World.

All the OOC tests in the world are not going to detect blood doping. And even with the ABP, there's so much variation that as long as you're not doing Shobukhova-style blood doping, athletes can get away with a certain amount of blood-manipulation:

And it's not just EPO/blood doping anymore. AICAR has been around now for several years and is very difficult to detect as it's hard to differentiate it from the naturally produced form of the body. AICAR, an endurance enhancer, doesn't involve the hematological pathways and therefore would not affect the current module of the ABP:

VO2 maximum, honestly I have to admit that it's the first time I hear about AICAR.

If I, that normally coach athletes of top level (this year, the World Champion of Cross for women, Irene Cheptai, the winner of Boston, Geoffrey Kirui, the number two and four in London, Kenenisa Bekele and Abel Kirui, and on track Ronald Kwemoi, who will start his season in Doha), never heard about this substance, and I don't know anything about it, you can have two option only :

or I know everything (because I give importance to this doping) and I'm a cheater, trying to take distances by this argument because I want to hide myself, or I really don't know anything because doping is not part of my culture, and in this case how is it possible I continue to have some athlete (obviously clean) among the best in the world, if without doping is not possible to run so fast ?

So, let me understand : you and other posters here say that the 99 athletes inside the best 100 all-time that never were caught with doping, are all doped, but are very smart in following the right procedures for appearing clean when there are OOC tests ?

Tell me, with this type of thinking (who is positive is doped, and who is not positive is doped but was so smart that couldn't be caught), you exclude the possibility somebody can run fast without doping.

It's like to say "Everybody, including VO2 max, is a cheater. Somebody more stupid or unlucky is arrested, all the other are more smart, BUT WE CAN EXCLUDE THERE IS SOMEBODY HONEST IN THE WORLD".

Congratulations, you have a very positive opinion about the Society where we live.

its annoying retardo because you constantly claim the only people who have used EPO are SUB ELITES or some other bull$hit excuse or reasoning

tell me about

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brahim_Boulami

guess he was sub elite too since he only crushed out the WR. so if EPO doesnt work on the top top top athletes then why should it be banned? your nonsense is ridiculous. if EPO doesnt work with top athletes, then why are top athletes taking it? if it doesnt work on top athletes then why is it banned?

if the only people who can get better with EPO are worthless super sub elite hobby joggers who cares! let them go from 25min 5k to 19min, but if it doesnt work on real athletes then again RETARDO tell me why would all the governing bodies declare it ILLEGAL? if it doesnt work then it should be like vit C.

cant wait for you to go down, then sprintgeezer can do the

"RETARDO GOES DOWN" post

sorry about that, he is not elite if he was elite he wouldnt have the #2 time in the steeple behind your prized pupil....oh wait he does have the FASTEST time ever, but its been erased because....boom busted for EPO.

so EPO only works on super sub elite loser fat hobby jogger Americans and Europeans, and can turn sub elite moroccans and turkish athletes into what retardo calls "elite"...well lets not kid ourselves ramzi was never "elite" and winning olympics doesnt make you elite.

It is perfectly logical to believe that EPO works and that Paula ran a time that is a large outlier in marathon performance. The question regarding Jemima Sumgong is whether EPO helped her run faster than she did prior to using. Whether she ran within 2:55 of Paul or not is irrelevant to that question.The idea that she is a large outlier and EPO users can't approach her time proves (or tends to prove) that EPO doesn't work is consistent with your frame of reference shifting you constantly engage in. It's illogical, and yes, weird and bizarre.Does EPO work more now that Mary Keitany closed with 1:35 of Paula?

Mindflat, maybe you didn't read what I wrote in many threads, so your irony is to piss out of the pot. Or maybe you didn't you understand, because the level of your comprehension is not high enough. Or maybe you are not able reading.

However, I explain you again.

I never wrote EPO doesn't work for top athletes. I specifically spoke about TOP ATHLETES BORN, LIVING AND TRAINING IN ALTITUDE.

No one among Maroccan athletes was or is born in high altitude.

No one of them lives ALWAYS in high altitude.

No one of them trains ALWAYS in high altitude.

For all those reasons, no one of them can increase of more than 20% the total volume of blood in their body, like some of the best Kenyans and Ethiopians can do.

Brahim Boulami of sure was an "elite" athlete, but was not part of the SPECIFIC CLASS OF SUBJECTS I'M SPEAKING ABOUT.

So, if you have some data about this specific class, produce the data, but don't show me examples of athletes who don't respect the parameters I'm speaking about as "models" that can demonstrate I'm wrong.

I want also to tell you something else : EPO can work (of course with improvement in their performances very much smaller than what there is in the mind of people obsessed by this drug) ALSO with this kind of athletes, IF THEY DON'T FOLLOW THE LAST TWO PARAMETERS (living and training in high altitude). So, when you want to criticize what I say, YOU NEED TO CONSIDER ALL THE 3 PARAMETERS AT THE BASE OF MY THEORY.

For example, looking at many of the cases we know, Shobukhova NEVER trained in altitude higher than 1200m, the Maroccan never higher than Ifrane (about 1600m) and for the central part of the season only, Chatal Lombard (I'm not sure, but I think) always at sea level, the same many other runners positive for EPO.

Put in your mind I SPECIFICALLY always spoke about EPO, not GENERALLY about doping. I never had any doubt that steroids can produce advantages in ALL THE ATHLETES, including top runners of endurance born, living and training in high altitude. But too many times it seems that doping is EPO only, when the most part of doping depends on steroids, in cycling too (doctors of antidoping testing cyclists told me that EPO is no higher than 10% in the total cocktails of doping they used to take). If you want to go fast using a bike, you need to have more muscle strength in order to pedale with the same frequency with one or two teeth of the gear more, but if we want to run faster a marathon don't have any advantage having more strength, since this increases the consumption of fuel, and a marathon runner can improve his times using less fuel (glycogen) at marathon speed, in order to last longer at the same speed.

Seriously, you need to know the physiological requirements for running the different events of endurance, before putting every situation in the same pot, and never can think that the EPO effects are the same for a competition lasting less than 2 minutes and for a competition lasting more than 2 hours.

Renato Canova wrote:

Brahim Boulami of sure was an "elite" athlete, but was not part of the SPECIFIC CLASS OF SUBJECTS I'M SPEAKING ABOUT.

The SPECIFIC CLASS being those athletes that Renato Canova makes a lot of money out of?

Troll, why do you continue to speak about what you don't know ?

Who can have money, are athletes at first (and if you are n. 10 in the world on track, really very little today, maybe 20,000 USD at the end of a season, of course if you are African. With the same value, if you are American, can have a contract with some Company for not less than 200,000 USD, till 700,000 USD depending on the event).

Managers works taking 15% of all the incomes of the athletes, but have at their charge all the cost of their work. We can say, for example, that some athlete winning 20,000 USD in one year produces for his manager 1,500 USD of commission, but 500 USD can be the expenditures the manager had for the athlete himself (telephone, fax, travels, promotion, etc...).

In the case of African athletes, coaches work in very different system than in US. In the world of sprinters, normally coaches are directly paid by the athletes, who choose the best coach according to their opinion (such as the best physio, the best doctor, the best press agent). The money for the coaches of the best sprinters is by far very much more than the money for the coaches of the best runners of endurance.

In Kenya and Ethiopia, the most part of local coaches work for free, having only some benefit (such as travelling two times in one year for going with their best athlete in Europe or US). For the top managements, that are not many (we can speak about Global of Jos Hermens, DAP of Gianni Demadonna, Rosa and Associati, the group of Davor Savija, Volare of Gerhard, Golazo of Marc Corstjens, Jukka Harkonen manager of Julius Yego (javelin), Nicholas Bett and Boniface Mucheru (400m hs) and Caleb Ndiku and Elijah Manangoi (1500 - 5000m)) there is one local assistant who organize all the activity of the athletes (tickets for their travels, links with the management, links with the Federation, communications with media, etc..) and another who is responsible for the technical situation.

The salaries of these assistants are not very high (can vary from 400 USD to a max of 1500 USD per month).

There is some coach who chose to stay long time in these Countries, and normally has a contract with one specific management. In this case, I don't see and know any foreigner coach with a contract bigger than 30,000 USD per year, from which the coach has to pay taxes in his Country.

My case is still different, since when I was in Kenya normally I had contracts with some Federation, and all my activity with Kenyans and Ethiopians was always for free. I'm, fortunately, in a situation different from the main part of coaches, because I'm not in the need to ask for money, and I can decide to do what I like. I'm 72, I don't have sons, and I already have everything me and my wife need.

I understand that for people obsessed by money like you it seems strange somebody can chose to work for passion, but sometimes, in particular cases, this can happens. And, when it happens, it's better to know before insulting without any foundation, of course if you have a semblance of honesty in your sick mind.

my god that reads like a whose who of drug cheats,and various walking pharmaceuticals.

jeff tallon wrote:

my god that reads like a whose who of drug cheats,and various walking pharmaceuticals.

Just like the all-time men's 100m list.

lol mindweak, I'm always ready...That has turned out to be a good thread series. I don't think there are any coaches on it, though.

Yet.

Perhaps it's not money, more the prestige and reputation you stand to lose if the East African domination is to be proven to be at least in some part due to rampant and cynical cheating.

'Respected coach to 73 disgraced athletes (of course being an Italian of great repute, he knew nothing of the cheating)' doesn't sound as good.

How long have you been giving folate to your athletes?