50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

lucKy2b: I agree the science is not conclusive on stretching. 35 years ago (very close to 59 now) I both stretched and did not stretch while training for competition. I did find as I aged, the stretching kept me more limber overall and relieved what seems like built up tension from volume/pace. I don't spend a great deal of time stretching, basic hammy and calf dynamic moves slowly trying to get a release. Takes me 5 minutes tops. Both before and then afterwards in the nice warm shower. No I can't touch my toes anymore or place my hands on the floor sadly... but... I don't want to think about how tight my hip flexors down to my toes would be like without. Forgot to mention, as I stretch out my calves, I reach high up the wall to stretch out the entire back side up to the arms. Bend the hips inwards towards the wall.... ahh feels soo nice on the old bod. Good Day To All:)

Hi Skuj, yes I heard you are living in Victoria. Glad you got to do the Terry Fox run..yes Rob keeps the memory of a great human being alive..

Desert Rat wrote:

victoria, b.c., canada, runner: I also have left foot issues that can not be corrected, this problem almost took me out of the game completely this year. Previously tried everything, barefoot running, foot exercises... the whole shebang. What has helped me a lot is running my evening runs in Nike Free shoes, not the super minimalist model, the next one up that has more cushioning. This has helped strengthen my foot I believe quite a bit. Give it a try, it seems to be working for me as I am still out there running everyday, sure it barks at me occasionally, but the alternative is not good for my mental being:)

Last week I got orthotics, another pair to replace the Footmaxx I had been wearing for a long time. Yes like you I know how it feels to not be able to run. Thanks for your encouraging reply.

Almost without fail, every time I try to ease into stretching, I strain something...irritates more than helps (been running/racing non-stop however for 43 years)...my alternatives to stretching? body work...rolfing, deep tissue massage, even ART when necessary...done weekly and some times twice a week...also hot baths with epsom salt and arnica based creams.

Managed 45 for the week, 263 day mini "streak" and 97,430 miles...time for said bath therapy and a glass of wine.

train don't strain,

MF

I'll be doing it. Hoping to run low in the 3s. The buses move in and out; they won't let you stay on. The best bet is to wear lots of throwaway clothes, which is what most everyone does. It's a huge crowd and you'll be in one of three staging areas...there isn't a lot of under tent cover so it's best to be prepared for anything...some years I check a bag and some years I don't, depending on the forecast for the afternoon...you need to get to your corral about an hour early because they close them at a certain time and then don't want to let you in, to make room for the next wave. (I assume you'd be in the first wave.)There's lots of coffee, tea, gatorade, bagels, power bars at the start. It's really quite amazing how well they pull off such a huge event

Regarding this week’s topic: Previously I never stretched, but when I hurt my knee from overtraining I tried it as a therapeutic methodology. Not only did it not work but it actually set me back. But I’m not about to say stretching is bad for everyone: just me. We are all so unique that sometimes it’s hard to make any generalizations. lucKY2b; I tried your suggestion of taking some steps backwards and, along with the other seemingly paradoxical things I’m doing, it’s clearly working. Yesterday I had my first hard trail/mountain workout since early August and it felt great to get my heart rate near my max again. I’m not ready to hit the track yet but I’m tempted.

Last year I was doing very well, placing well, but I got impatient with my progress. Despite a long history of getting injured when I increase my miles I threw caution to the wind and went longer anyway. I got away with it for a long time too. But when it came time to sharpen I couldn’t handle the D and the speed at the same time.

So I hope I’ve learned my lesson. Now, how to get faster and not fall apart? First, get glued back together well, then, we’ll see.

Weird week running wise. My PF issues hit a peak (or nadir) from Saturday through Wednesday. I hurt it the other week in a trail run where I had twisted my foot. So I'd only run a few times easy since then. It looked bad, but I had put together a good masters team for the Equinox Marathon relay (approx 3X 8.5 to 9 mile segments), and on Thursday sore foot and all I ran an easy 4. It actually felt better after that. So I ran 3 on Friday and did a couple pick ups. Good to go.

Taped it up on Saturday, took some NSAIDs, and ran my 8.5 mile segment to the best of my ability. Definitely felt it after running just 5 days in 2.5 weeks. We were 2nd/120 teams, broke the masters relay record, and just missed making the top 10 all-time relay on this rugged mostly trail/mountain course. That was a lot of fun.

Stretching, only when I have to. I do dynamics with the xc team a couple times a week, and on my own sporadically. Usually after warming up and before harder workouts and most races. That's about it.

Desert Rat; Since you asked, no the buses will not be there for any one to camp out in or stay warm. Once disgorged onto Staten island you will walk to your color coded start area. Think in terms of needing 3 sets of clothing. A; your running kit. B; a set of clothes, warmups etc to be sent to the finish. C; A set of disposable warmups, a blanket,a hoody,etc that you will wear for the interminable wait until you enter your corral and finally head to the bridge to start your run.

There will be music, coffee, food, and drink available pre-race. Most folks hunker down somewhere out of the wind and bide their time dozing, or making frequent trips to the portables. Ditch your finish line gear to the UPS trucks early. I nearly missed my start the first time dallying around , and then got caught in a huge line to get my packed bag onto the right truck in time. It's not the end of the world if you go to a later corral but the course gets more congested in the middle of the "bell curve".

Do; read and follow packet materials info.

Do; visit the Dublin House on 79th, between Broaway and Amsterdam. ( It's one of wejo's watering holes as well)

Do; Read Liz Robbins book " A Race like No Other"

Do; Stay somewhere in Upper West Manhattan for it's proximity to the finish and Central Park in general.

Do; Harness and ride the monster wave of adrenalin that awaits you as you make your way up the Verrazano Narrows Bridge and see the fire boats spraying lofty Red, White, and Blue plumes of water skyward.

There's 45,000 versions of what makes this race special. Go with the thought of creating yours.

lucKY2b wrote:

Still working on loosening those hamstrings as Desert Rat suggested, and in the process, I now must acknowledge that I am a stretcher. I really envy those people that can run day in-day out and not stretch...what a time-saver. I realize that there is no conclusive evidence that stretching does any good, so I tried not doing serious stretching for quite some time. But I now know that I feel better when I stretch, and especially after runs, the more I stretch (both static and dynamic), the less stiff I feel the next day. I think this is another one of those personal things that must depend on your body and how it responds to stresses, so I suspect that there is no hard and fast rule. So who stretches? And how much, and when?

As much of the other things discussed in this thread, the evidence for, or against, stretching is based on the individual. As a young athlete, stretching was an integral part of the warm-up as per my coaches. Since that was what I had learned and practiced for years, it remained a staple of my training for quite some time. As I moved into coaching it naturally became part of what I prescribed for my athletes.

Learning more about the benefits of stretching - as described at the time - we started to incorporate a second stretching session, now at the end of practice. Several years ago I started to hear the rumblings that static stretching might not be all it was cracked up to be - tightness may not always be a bad thing - and that dynamic stretching was superior. To make a long story short, I read a lot of the research and learned there was truth in that last sentence.

So we nixed the static stretching before practice/competition in favor of a dynamic warm-up. But we kept a session of static stretching for afterward.

As for my own running, I do the second half. As far as I'm concerned, the best warm-up is a slow jog. Heck, that's what most of my "workouts" are anyway. :) But I usually finish with a brief session of static stretching; hurdlers, groin, hip flexors, hammys, and calves. (I also do some neck stretches in the shower as recommended by my chiro.) It seems to work for me and I believe it is helpful.

That's my $0.02.

Bushman. Will hit the Dublin House for a Scotch post race. Thanks again for all the wonderful advice, I'll be much better prepared for it now. If I can just keep from overcooking the training right now I'll be alright. ICE the KNEE!! Volume oriented aches and pains.

Well, got out for a 14 plus min. jog....very short time & distance, it's been 5 weeks since my last attempt to do any running. Hopefully I can build up a little bit from this. The orthotics were providing me a lot of support.

MikeF wrote:

Almost without fail, every time I try to ease into stretching, I strain something.

Thanks MikeF, I totally hear what you are saying, and I know plenty of guys who this works for. I would definitely not encourage someone to start stretching "just because". If you don't stretch and that's working for you, great!(Which it obviously is, nice streak, BTW!)

Kiryea wrote:

So we nixed the static stretching before practice/competition in favor of a dynamic warm-up. But we kept a session of static stretching for afterward.

Thanks Kiryea, that pretty much mirrors my regimen.

Here's a couple rules I follow regarding stretching:

1) Muscles must be fully warmed up either by running or other range-of-motion exercises.

2) Only very light and brief stetching before running workout. As you pointed out, dynamic warmups are much better.

3) Stretching should not hurt!! Unike massage, if it hurts, you are doing more harm than good.

4) Don't stretch to release a knot. If you've developed a knot, massage (or targeted exercise) first to release the knot, then you can stretch. Actually, I find that cycling between using the roller, doing some range-of-motion exercises and stretching works best for me...but it is time consuming.

5) Stretching isn't for every skeletomuscular ailment. Don't stretch if you have inflamed ligaments or tendons or if you have a muscle tear; it will only make things worse.

Rtype, this last one may be why the stretching was a bad thing on your knee....just a thought.

Anybody else that stretches have additional caveats or experiences? Are some of my rules old school that are no longer valid?

Again, as I said, I only stretch, because it makes me feel less stiff the next day, especially after a hard workout (not that I've done much of that lately.) Your mileage may vary.

Cheers!

Hoo-boy. Sorry for butchering that MikeF. English atrocities and lousy thread referencing aside, I hope you got my gist.

Carry on.

hammys and calves dynamic before and after every run. My variation flex's hips and IT band as well. This ordeal takes about 4 minutes and keeps my lower region hips down loose. Never, ever stretch an injured area for any reason. Ice anything that starts to act funky ASAP.

Like you, I have hurt something every time I've tried to stretch. The last time I did it set off a series of knee troubles that have been a problem for 19 years.

But this summer I went to a chiropractor in Vermont that Nike sends a lot of their athletes to and who's been on the medical staff at the last four Olympic Trials. Essentially he said I was stretching wrong and gave me some stretches to do that I'd never done before. I can't say they've fixed everything or even come close. But things have improved since I've done them though my right knee is still awful. They also x-rayed me and basically said my lower back is a wreck and not all that fixable, which is sort of the downside of medical treatment.

I suppose the point is that I have gotten some improvement from doing the "right" stretches.

bump

Okay so what does this bump mean? I was enjoying the forum but now everybody is gone? I feel left out... what did I do wrong? I can run 5K in the teens still at 16 months away from 60 guys....

Desert Rat wrote:Okay so what does this bump mean? I was enjoying the forum but now everybody is gone? I feel left out... what did I do wrong? I can run 5K in the teens still at 16 months away from 60 guys....

Hey Desert Rat, the "bump" was to bring the thread towards the top of the LetsRun stack. But if you look through the history of this thread, you'll see that this forum has always ebbed and flowed. Traditionally it had been liveliest Sunday through Tuesday, as people would make their weekly posts, then not a lot of posting during the inter-meaning time. There's no reason it has to be that way, but that's how it evolved from the old way the thread was formatted. During the recent troll epidemic there was an unusual spike in the posts.

On the other hand, there are a lot of 50+ masters out there that take their training seriously, and I had hoped when we recast this thread in a continuous way rather than as a new thread weekly training report, that we might engage more people in the conversation. To some degree that has happened, but we've also lost a few faithful that I really enjoyed participating with. I hope that the recent troll events weren't too much of a turn-off and that they will return....time will tell.

Personally, I find great value in the thread, and I intend to keep it moving.

Cheers.

Cheers lucKY2b! Thanks for the info, sorry for the lingo mistake. I too really enjoy this particular thread. Hope your back is loosening up some, keep those hammys and calves stretched out brother:) Thank you again.... Desert Rat