I have no idea how this will play out between FL and NXN, but the NXN course has to be changed. It is contrived and often turns into a mud bowl. XC shouldn't be about perfectly manicured trails, but it shouldn't be run on a manufactured course that is under water 50% of the time.
I have no idea how this will play out between FL and NXN, but the NXN course has to be changed. It is contrived and often turns into a mud bowl. XC shouldn't be about perfectly manicured trails, but it shouldn't be run on a manufactured course that is under water 50% of the time.
The course has always sucked. Nike handles this meet just like they handle their business. They pay teams and coaches to say good things about Nike. This whole meet is one big payday. The meet organization is horrible.
Yes, the MW Regional sounds like it was a fiasco. Coach Quick of Palatine (Ill) sent this e-mail to Schoolmeester about bungling things at the race.
Mr. Schoolmeester,
My name is Chris Quick, and I am the Palatine boys cross country coach. I have stayed out of the recent controversy concerning our Palatine XC Club team in order to stay in compliance with our state's rules regarding club coaching. To this point, I have allowed Coach Steve Johnson and Coach Fred Miller to speak on behalf of myself and my boys. I am not allowed to coach my boys, but I surely can still be their advocate. Recent events have prompted me to compose this well-considered and overdue set of grievances and requests.
First, let me establish some basic facts about registration. Steve Johnson initially registered seven runners using the Head Count online system. Upon looking at the NXN Midwest Entries (still online in their original form), I noticed immediately that two clubs had been allowed to register more than the seven permitted runners for the championship race. I know that you sent Steve Johnson a screen shot of our seven entries to demonstrate the "designation" process, but somehow both the Blue Streaks in the girls championship and Naperville South in the boys championship had been allowed to register 11 and 9 runners, respectively. None of us are clear how these two teams registered more than the seven allowed on the screen, and we still await your answer. It is safe to say that your designation process is nebulous at best. Even if club coaches had requested these runners to be added as Unattached, why were they not marked with that designation as all other such runners were in the entries? Absent any officially published rules, it is easy to see how one might get the impression that running more than seven athletes was permissible. Your published entries demonstrated that for all to see.
Second, let me discuss the addition of our eighth runner, Peter Tomkiewicz, into the championship race. This young man who ran the most incredible race of his life only later to be deleted from the team results and unfairly denigrated as a cheating addition entered the race through the assent of your race director. I am aware that Steve Johnson produced his original e-mail communication of inquiry to you, and I am more than aware that Nike allowed Peter's entry into the race. I want it made clear that Peter did not just "jump in" the championship rather than the open race. We proceeded to run eight only by direct consent of the meet manager. His assent only furthered the growing impression that Nike was allowing more than seven runners in the championship races.
As you are now aware, the meet management at the NXN Midwest race severely bungled the handling of this and several other situations from the start. Some errors:
1) Last year, our girls were placed in 3rd position after a girl from another club wore two chips - one of hers and one of a teammate - on her two shoes. She counted twice and momentarily knocked the Palatine girls club into third place. Only after our girls had driven home was the mistake found and rectified. There is no official policing of how the scoring devices are distributed or worn.
2) Corremos XC was allowed to run as a scoring team even though their club was made up of runners from two separate schools, Buffalo Grove, IL and Prospect, IL. To my knowledge, there is no clear procedure other than honesty and coach detection to prevent the creation of clubs with representatives from more than one school. Only our e-mail notifications made your meet director aware of this error in team scoring. Who knows how many other errors there were in this regional or others nationwide if there is no clear process for identifying and verifying appropriate school attendance.
3) Registration lacks a clear and uniform set of rules. Hopefully, our team's punishment will help a clearer set of standards be defined.
Now, to the gist of my e-mail. I knew that it was logical for the Midwest boys to receive only one bid. I also know that there were scenarios in play where the at-large bids would go to other regions. As an advocate for Illinois cross country, I strongly believe in the strength of our state, especially the amazing depth of teams that coaches around Illinois produced this year. To run well and place a close third in the midst of these fantastic teams was the high point of our season. We achieved this finish within the rules set forth by your meet manager, but our result was later invalidated to create a uniformity with the rest of the nation. I can see how teams in every other region would cry foul if Midwest teams were allowed to run more than seven athletes. As a coach, I appreciate a uniformity of rules. As a competitor, I value the opportunity to prove a team's value in head-to-head action rather than a backroom deal. We were on the losing end of back-room, Nike politics in both 2004 and 2005. I was an advocate then of the current regional system, and I hope that my passionate advocacy to numerous people in the Nike organization was just another voice adding to the cry for fair play, for our sport to decide its winners on the course.
I had faith that the regional system would work. My faith in that system and in Nike's ability to administer a fair national championship has been shattered. I have to go to school tomorrow and explain to my boys why beating another team on the course is no longer enough. I have to explain to them that we followed the rules, asked permission to add to our lineup, raced our best, and then got screwed out of a bid by the ultimate back-room deal, by you changing the results after the fact to cover up the mistakes of yourself and your meet directors. I have to explain to them that getting third is not enough even though our best effort on NXN Regional day was 18 points better than Neuqua Valley's. I had to explain how proud I was of them at the Illinois state meet when Neuqua Valley's best effort was 9 points better than ours. Results on the course I can handle. Incompetence and avoidance of blame I cannot. Pure ineptitude I cannot.
Both Neuqua Valley and Palatine ran more than the allowable runners. I guess Neuqua had the good fortune that neither one of their extra men ran well enough to cause a stir. Senior Matt Hill did run well enough to move up to seventh man after a season full of injuries. Junior Peter Tomkiewicz had the misfortune to run even better, taking advantage of his opportunity to rise up and be a fifth runner. I was fine if both of us were allowed to go, even if we used the rescore. I was fine if neither club was allowed to go based on the merits of other deserving teams. What is shameful on your part is changing the score after the meet was over and then inviting another team who did the exact same thing as we did. No amount of consolation prizes or free Nike gear can remove your bungling of this situation. Shame on any of my kids if they pay their own way, take part in the NXN "experience," and then sell "free" Nike gear to pay for their expenses. No amount of gear or promises of dinners with Nike superstars can convince these young men that they weren't severely wronged by your and Nike's ineptitude. As such, accepting that we were not invited to what really mattered - the race for the high school national championship - we would like to request the following:
1) A direct apology to all of our athletes. I want them to hear from you or another Nike representative how the results were changed, how the meet management was at fault, and how they were denied the place accorded them by their race efforts. You do not need to buy them off with Nike gear and a replacement NXN experience that demeans all of us. A simple, direct, and public apology will do.
2) A public admission of meet mismanagement in this situation. Your lax approach to running the NXN Midwest Regional caused this situation.
3) A clearer codification of the exact rules and procedures to be used at NXN Regional races from now on to prevent future instances of mismanagement. In particular, how will you more clearly address designation of athletes? And how will you prevent athletes from more than one school from forming a club team? These athletes may never qualify given the scrutiny of the top teams, but they do impact the team scoring.
4) The Palatine XC club would like to be removed from the official results of the 2010 NXN Midwest Regional. We broke the rules and were later sanctioned for doing so. As such, we would like to disqualify our club from the proceedings. Please mark all of our runners as unattached. We will be mailing the 3rd place trophy to Neuqua Valley.
I look forward to speaking to you about this tomorrow. As you can see, this issue has been weighing on me for quite some time. I have wrestled all day with my anger and frustration, and as you can see by the late hour of the time signature on this e-mail, found myself sickened and unable to sleep. These are high school kids who dreamed all year of winning a state title and qualifying to run in the national championship. We produced our two best races of the year and will stand proudly behind those efforts. Too bad that my kids had to learn how the world actually worked and that hard work and performance are not as valuable as they imagined. They can thank you and Nike for such a powerful lesson. We know that going forward we will have few friends or allies in the behind-the-scenes, board-room world at Nike so we will plan on avoiding the at-large process altogether and focus on securing an automatic berth. Hopefully, you can use the crushed dreams of seven young men in Palatine as fodder for running a fairer and more improved set of meets in the future.
Chris Quick
The point was that she enjoyed the team experience better. That's it.
This all started because someone talked about XC not being a team sport because teams don't get recruited.
Um- in what sport DOES the team get recruited?
It is a team and individual sport and it is possible to find both team and individual champions in one race- how nice.
As I watched the NXN races I was wishing kids like Chad Noelle and Aisling Cuffe were there.
It's ashame that there could be two national champions.
Duck Walk wrote:
Actually, they pay me to watch road rashed become road kill as it applies to the FL event. Actually not a Stalin, but a Knight.
Watch for the FL announcement after this year's event as Choc Man states. Wonder what that can be?
So, is there going to be an anouncement?
Coach, I agree with everything you said. Good luck to you and your team.
I heard at FLN yesterday that along with Saucony, that Asics, New Balance, and Nike are added as sponsors of 2011 FLN in San Diego. Footlocker is added as a sponsor of 2011 NXN in Dallas, Texas (not Portland). It's the good old boys network at it again ;-)
Dallas is usually warm in December. Good move, Nike.
I don't get the animosity of one race versus the other. They both serve purposes of allowing kids to run in a National level meet whose purpose is different (individual at FL versus team focus at NXN). Neither can be true HS championships as there is no direct advancement from the State meet (as a qualification), so are made up "club" teams for NXN, and individuals who are encouraged or discouraged from participating make up the fields at either, rather than anyone who simply runs HS XC (i.e. competes at their sectional meet and could qualify from then on as a true representative of their HS association).
What does it really matter if there is an actual "championship"? Other than childish controversy (see NCAA football) over who is the "best", what is really accomplished? At the NCAA level, the pressure attendant on such attitudes is supposed to be the purview of adults (18+), whereas at the HS level we are dealing with children (even though of HS-age) upon whom there is already enough pressure. This all seems to be about adults trying to impose their immature attitudes about "true champions" upon young athletes who really only want to have the experiences and meet new people, even if in a competitive context. This is really a sick side of sport in America when things like FL Vs. NXN become actual issues requiring pages of discussion.
Choc Man wrote:
You heard it here. Watch for a major FL announcement after this years final. The clock is ticking.
Great point on reviewing who makes the larger committment to the sport while recognizing the team and individuals. How about an individual championship race between the NXN top 7 finishers and FL top 7 finishers for 2010. It would be no contest even with the girls with the strength of many great girls on NXN teams. Goodbye to the dreamers and the pretender.
You're completely full of shit. Where is the announcement that you were trumpeting? Go back to your basement apartment and have mom serve you some more chicken nuggets.
NXN = Not eXactly Nationals
haha, those FL ones were bothering me.
I must say after watching the live coverages for both meets, that NXN looked like a circus, while Footlocker looked like a true championship. Plus the Nike course is a joke, and a disgrace to the sport.
bluewaters wrote:
NXN = Not eXactly Nationals
haha, those FL ones were bothering me.
I must say after watching the live coverages for both meets, that NXN looked like a circus, while Footlocker looked like a true championship. Plus the Nike course is a joke, and a disgrace to the sport.
Why do you hate NXN so much? If NXN cant claim nationals then footlocker certainly should not either. Footlocker is not looked as the true championship, sorry bud. Neither is NXN, but dont be stupid and hateful with your arguments. personally, I enjoyed my NXN (unfortunately only regionals) experience when I was in high school, and many of my friends agreed. That said, its a personal opinion, not fact. As for competition, the boys side was better at nxn while girls was better at fl. so its def not the true championship. neither one is.
bluewaters wrote:
... NXN looked like a circus, while Footlocker looked like a true championship. Plus the Nike course is a joke, and a disgrace to the sport.
Please elaborate with specifics that aren't influenced by your hate for Nike.
I personally think both events have been first class and have been to both. It's easy to criticize one or the other with little in the means of actual facts or an agenda (anti-Nike), but why don't you be honest and share your real complaints, as you obviously haven't attended NXN.
Ha, your out of context, by a lot! Never said I hated Nike, but you assumed so, trying to make out an ass out of u and me, oh well.
I don't hate Nike, or love it! Who the heck cares too devote those words to companies and corporations.
NXN live coverage was a circus with lagging feeds, messed up audio, bad camera coverage, etc. The rock anthem was very weird in my opinion. Felt like good coverage, but Footlocker's was better, more professional. Have you seen the course? Its got BMX hills on it, and hay bales!! Last I checked we run cross country on natural courses, with the occasional creek hopping and downed tree hurdling in dual meets, but never any race director saying to himself/herself, "how 'bout we drop some obstacles for those runners". It was artificial and sterile. Footlocker's is more scenic and far more interesting, though none touch my favorite courses.
You assume too much, my friend, but in this case, you won't get hurt.
gray area wrote:
bluewaters wrote:NXN = Not eXactly Nationals
haha, those FL ones were bothering me.
I must say after watching the live coverages for both meets, that NXN looked like a circus, while Footlocker looked like a true championship. Plus the Nike course is a joke, and a disgrace to the sport.
Why do you hate NXN so much? If NXN cant claim nationals then footlocker certainly should not either. Footlocker is not looked as the true championship, sorry bud. Neither is NXN, but dont be stupid and hateful with your arguments. personally, I enjoyed my NXN (unfortunately only regionals) experience when I was in high school, and many of my friends agreed. That said, its a personal opinion, not fact. As for competition, the boys side was better at nxn while girls was better at fl. so its def not the true championship. neither one is.
Missed some stuff here.
1. Didn't say Footlocker was a true Nationals.
2. Already talked about hate/love and its relationship to Nike, so I digess
3. Comments weren't hateful or stupid, only if ur offended by "coverage was a circus". Oh man I'd hate to talk to you about anything! How do you label perception as stupid?
4. You can't take a joke. FL=Final Lap, etc have been all over here, I thought they were funny, but no NXN ones so I made one up, ha!
gray area wrote:
If NXN cant claim nationals then footlocker certainly should not either. Footlocker is not looked as the true championship, sorry bud. Neither is NXN, but dont be stupid and hateful with your arguments. personally, I enjoyed my NXN (unfortunately only regionals) experience when I was in high school, and many of my friends agreed. That said, its a personal opinion, not fact. As for competition, the boys side was better at nxn while girls was better at fl. so its def not the true championship. neither one is.
You "enjoyed" your NXN (regional) "experience" when you were in high school, well, that pretty much sums up why NXN is the JV fun run. The best runners don't go to championships in order to "enjoy experiences" (oh, such yummy treats and neat products) like hobby joggers, but to rather go to *race.*
Footlocker was far far deeper than NXN on the boys side, for example, look at the results of the 3 time Ohio champ, Wills, at his NXN Regional (3rd) and Final (29th of) versus his Footlocker regional (8th) and Final (34th of 40). You can see that he qualifies easily in the weak NXN regional and barely makes the top 10 for Footlocker. Now, everyone knows that NXN is far weaker, which why chokers like Elkaim and Rosa go the NXN route, only to go down in shameful defeat under pressure anyway, 73rd and 78th.
You "enjoyed" your NXN (regional) "experience" when you were in high school, well, that pretty much sums up why NXN is the JV fun run. The best runners don't go to championships in order to "enjoy experiences" (oh, such yummy treats and neat products) like hobby joggers, but to rather go to *race.*
Footlocker was far far deeper than NXN on the boys side, for example, look at the results of the 3 time Ohio champ, Wills, at his NXN Regional (3rd) and Final (29th of) versus his Footlocker regional (8th) and Final (34th of 40). You can see that he qualifies easily in the weak NXN regional and barely makes the top 10 for Footlocker. Now, everyone knows that NXN is far weaker, which why chokers like Elkaim and Rosa go the NXN route, only to go down in shameful defeat under pressure anyway, 73rd and 78th.[/quote]
Just because I said enjoyable experience means I wasn't there to race? There is such a thing as racing competitively and having some fun. In fact, I did not receive much more from nxn than fl (nxn bag vs fl shirt), so I dont understand that point. I simply found that nxn was a much more fun race to compete at, which i think is a good thing. unless enjoying it more means I was not really caring or competing???? not sure about that logic there.
More boys out of the top 25 went to nxn than to footlocker. So how is FL far far deeper? looking at one runner and then extrapolating that to an entire event makes a good example doesn't it? I could pull an example out where the guy who finished 13th in the state went to footlocker nationals, while the top two guys in the state failed to make nxn, but that doesnt really prove anything at all about how good either competition is as a whole. and 34th and 29th are not all that far apart, so that was not the greatest example. he could of at regionals just been trying to guarantee a spot at nationals and not racing for the win, which has been used as a tactic by many racers. It is also easier to do at footlocker regionals. i think you should realize that there are both ups and downs to both races. so maybe you shouldn't be so judgmental and realize that not everything is as cut and dry as you would like it to be.
[quote]Choc Man wrote:
You heard it here. Watch for a major FL announcement after this years final. The clock is ticking.[quote]
Hey A-hole, nice try...go back to your parents basement.
No announcement, and Cheserek going to FL this year.