Could very well be...but I don't think the JC route had the stigma it has today...I don't think the kids want to go to JC's to run anymore...the kids seem more willing to walk on or take a very small scholarship at a D-1 school as opposed to going to a JC...that is just my observation based on what I am seeing and what kids would tell me when I was coaching...
KCTrack wrote:
I realize there is going to be individual talent go the JC route on occasion...but I do not think the JC's are as prevelent or as deep in talent as they once were...when I was coaching I didn't see that much US talent in the JC's but there was plenty of foreign talent to be had at the Kansas Juco's...
That is what I was trying to say....I know there are some good Kansas Distance runners at JUCO's, but just not the depth as there once was.
[quote]Howdy Doody wrote:
shiny gold adidas 9.9’s
we had a sprinter that paid the big bucks for those. the bottoms were not rubber but a velvet/felt...if you wore those in practice, on cinders, they wouldn't last very long. I was thinking they were called the Aztecas, however.
Wyco Loco wrote:
Would you say that's in direct corelation with there just not being as deep of distance talent in the state these days? Not to mention many of our top runners going out of state.
I agree
cool, but short shelf life wrote:
[quote]Howdy Doody wrote:
shiny gold adidas 9.9’s
we had a sprinter that paid the big bucks for those. the bottoms were not rubber but a velvet/felt...if you wore those in practice, on cinders, they wouldn't last very long. I was thinking they were called the Aztecas, however.
Azteca Golds?
KCTrack wrote:
Could very well be...but I don't think the JC route had the stigma it has today...I don't think the kids want to go to JC's to run anymore...the kids seem more willing to walk on or take a very small scholarship at a D-1 school as opposed to going to a JC...that is just my observation based on what I am seeing and what kids would tell me when I was coaching...
you may have a point based on the number of high school kids who come onto Letrun and act like they are God's gift to distance running and are ONLY considering D1 schools, even if it means walking on...and their times are worse then ours were in high school; but we had no problem going to Hutch, Butler, Pittsburg, Emporia, Hays, Central Missouri, Southwest, etc. We had those types too, in our day; the #1 guys at West and South who quit their high school teams and were too good to go to "a PSU, CMS", etc., where they might have actually thrived, but were going to walk on at KU and be stars, didn't even last their freshman years. (I don't want to name them out of respect to their privacy).
adding to the previous post; when I was at PSU, we tried to recruit 2 good, solid, distance runners from SMN, one from '71, who was out of school and the other from '73, who could have had good careers at the NAIA/D2 level, but not good enough to get a sniff from any D1 schools, (just like me), but they turned up their noses at us. Neither did anything in running at the D1 schools they went to. Maybe 2 years running with me and Canipe in high school was enough? lol...
Kids in Kansas are recruited to much....that is why they think they are really good and won't consider a JUCO or D2 program.
It is also possible that people choose schools based on education, campus life and facilities which would all most likely be better at a bigger school.Also I happened upon Kansas Relays results booklets from 1924-1942. If anyone is interested I can look stuff up.
jscott wrote:the number of high school kids who come onto Letrun and act like they are God's gift to distance running and are ONLY considering D1 schools, even if it means walking on....
D1walkon wrote:
It is also possible that people choose schools based on education, campus life and facilities which would all most likely be better at a bigger school.
quote]
that is true; but that is a whole 'nother discussion and category. I am referring to those who presumably are serious about their running careers in college, 1st; not the other aspect's you mentioned.
I can only speak from personal experience, but I decided to walk on at KU over possible scholarships at some smaller schools for those reasons, and I am pretty serious about my training. I would think that the serious person would make a decision based on where they think they can grow as an athlete, and not simply where you can receive a scholarship.
yes, there are those who do. very few succeed. it is too easy to walk away from the sport as a walk-on at a D1 school, since there is no pressure on you to show up every day; or if the competition is too tough or other things pull your interest away from running. those are the facts with walk-ons. I do hope you make it and persevere. It is up to you. It can be done, obviously. Good luck!
I would definity agree that walk-ons have a tough road, but I think the ones that quit probley wouldn't last too long at a juco or anywhere else. Me and Baysinger both walked on and ended up all conference, when some of the coaches at the smaller school were telling me and him that we couldn't compete on the big 12 level.
good point...we had walk-ons at PSU who ended up drifting away and quitting, too. (but alot stayed with it). A few 100 mile weeks in the brutal heat of late August/early September will do that to you, especially if it's totally your choice, with no one to answer to. It's just harder to quit at a smaller school, since you see everyone, all the time on a smaller campus. (fewer places to hide and you hang out with the other runners pretty much, anyway...lol). I'm glad you are sticking with it and doing well. I think I ran against your coach, Doug Clark when he ran for SMS in the mid 70's.
[quote]D1walkon wrote:
some of the coaches at the smaller school were telling me and him that we couldn't compete on the big 12 level.
they shouldn't have done that; but rather sold you on exceling to a higher level at their schools. As a D2 coach, I do not believe in negative recruiting.
[quote]D1walkon wrote:
Also I happened upon Kansas Relays results booklets from 1924-1942. If anyone is interested I can look stuff up.
you want to see some interesting stuff? Look at the athletes for Pittsburg back in the 30's. They had some national class competitors as they were one of the 1st universities in the midwest to recruit black athletes. Look up Kermit King in those results.
NOt to turn this into a debate on which schools are best, but to echo Jscott's point: it seems like some guys who are good in high school who go on to Div 1 level get passed up by guys who were equal or below them in high school and chose the non-D 1 option. (or put another way - are more successful at their respectively level). at least this is how it appeared in the past - not so much today.
While it is a personal choice, of course, for the school, major, etc. I think what happens is seeing that you can compete helps motivate and keep you going at the smaller school (non-D 1 option) even though there is some pretty good comp there too - its just not as deep...whereas the D 1 level is tough and deep and can cause many guys to give up of their running, by the time the are seniors they are done. This is, of course, a bit of a stereotype and I do think has changed over the years - today there cetainly aren't as many standouts at the small college level as there were in Jscott's day - I mean look at those times from that PSU meet listed on here from mid 70's (23's-24's for NAIA).
Today there are fewer and fewer willing (i guess) to do the work at the smaller schools. But I think the quality of the coaching is on the rise...and the number of programs is also going up: new programs in this ares: Cowley, Newman, are two good examples). good new coaches at Pratt, Newman off the top of my head. So manybe there will be a rise in the non-D 1 quality here in the next few years. But there is certainly a lot of opportunity for those who want run which ever level they choose, and maybe there is less stereotyping by the runners themselves - where more are willing to look at all levels and are doing a better job of selecting the one that is right for them. Clearly if you chose D1 and became all Conference - you did good! and if you chose Juco or NAIA and became All-American - you probably also did good.
KCTrack I'm still looking for your Pr's to add to the list and I guess since Charlie Gray did graduate from a Kansas High school - I need his as well.
Here's what I have so far:
Marathon (2:24)
1) Fred Torneden 2:11:35 twin cities 1985
2) Gary Gregory 2:18:18 Wichita Marathon 1983
3) Terry Ziegler 2:19:18 Dallas White Rock 1974
4) J.P. Worcester 2:21:09 Dallas White Rock 1992
5) Nathan Wadsworth 2:21:51 Chicago 2006
6) Dale Dexter 2:24
7) Wayne Strohman 2:24:08 Dallas White Rock 1999
1/2 Marathon/20K* converted to 1/2 M (1:08+)
1) Fred Torneden 1:05:14 HHH in Missouri 6/84
2) Dennis Smithhisler 1:06:35* Tulsa 1989
2) Nathan Wadsworth 1:07:30 Houston 2006
3) Watne Strohman 1:07:39 Air Capital '07
4) J.P. Worcester 1:08:02 Air capital '89
5) Dale Dexter 1:08:11 KC 1/2 2006
10 mile/15K* converted to 10 miles (52:00)
1) Jim Scott 49:51
2) Fred Torneden 50:00 (his Kansas best - may have gone faster out of state)
3) Curt Shelman 50:17 Atwood 1983
4) Tim Gundy 50:17 Atwood 1992
5) Trey Harrison 50:47 Atwood 1990
6) Dennis Smithhisler 50:5? Statehood Run Nebraska
7) Wayne Strohman 50:58 Turkey Trot 1997
9) Tom Camien 51:16 Turkey Trot 1986
10) Bob Luder 51:22 Atwood 1983
11) Ted Crank 51:29 Atwood 1980
12) J.P. Worcester 51:36 Atwood 1989
13) Rick Bishop 51:38 Atwood 1978
14) Nathan Wadsworth 51:43 Turkey Trot 2004
15) Randy Hasenbank 51:51 Turkey Trot 1988
16) Kirk Hunter 51:51 Fever 1995 (aided course)
17) Terry Drake 51:52 Turkey Trot 1987
18) Gary Gregory 51:53 Turkey Trot 1989
19) David Keller 51:55 Turkdy Trot 2001
10K (30;30)
1) Kent McDonald 28:30's Cresent City 19??
2) Trey Harrison 29:19 HPH in Missouri 1992
3) George Collier 29:39 MM in Missouri 1983
4) Curt Shelman 29:39 MM in Missouri 1984
5) Bob Luder 29:46
6) Tim Gundy 29:48 1992
7) Jim Scott 29:51
8) Dennis Smithhisler 29:53
9) Mike Vanetta 29:56 Hutch 1985
10) Alfredo Rosas 30:09 Hutch 1985
11) Bobby Palmer 30:38 River Run 1996
9K - Kent McDonald 1981 25:43 Jackson MS.
8K/ 5mile* converted to 8k (24;30)
1) Fred Tornaeden 23:28 Wichita Couples Classic 1983
2) Stan Vernon 23:30 Wichita Couples Classic 1983
3) Curt Shelman 23:30's
4) Tim Gundy 23:37 St pats 1991
5) Dennis Smithhisler 23:45 Tulsa Land Run 1989
6) Trey Harrison 23:46 St pats 1990
7) Alfredo Rosas 23:53 Wichita Couples Classic 1983
8) Tom Camien 23:57 Salina 1988
9) Gary Gregory 23:58 Wichita Couples Classic 1983
10) Jim Scott 23:59*
11) Mike Vanetta 24:00 Wichita 12/85
12) Bob Luder 24:12 Wichita Couples Classic 1987
13) Mike Regan 24:12 Wichita Couples Classic 1984
14) David Warders 24:16 Wichita Coulples Classic 1992
15) Mike Rogers 24:16 Wichita Couples Classic 1983
16) Pat Flannigan 24:18 Wichita Couples Classic 1984
17) Wayne Strohman 24:21 Wichita Couples Classic 1995
18) Ted Crank 24:25 Wichita Couples Classic 1982
19) J.P. Worcester 24:26 St Pat's 1989
20) Ron Smith 24:28 Wichita Couples Classic 1990
4mile
1) Tim Gundy 18:26 Trolley Run 1984
2) Wayne Strohman 18:39 Tolley Run 1986
3) David Johnston 18:43 Trolley Run 1997
3) Trey Harrison 18:44 Superbowl Run '92
4) Bob Luder 18:5? Mulvane ??
5) Michael Smith 18:54 Trolley Run 1996
6) David Warder 19:30 Loop D 1996
7) Kirk Hunter 19:36 St Pats 1996
8) David Keller 19:52 W-St pat's 2001
9) Hector Rios 19:55 St Pats 1997
10) Mike Schmidt 19:56 Jinglebell 1990
5K
1) Tim Gundy 14:28 Tulsa Night tracks 9/89
2) Fred Tornaeden 14:35 Chall 1985
3) Curt Shelman 14:
4) Dennis Smithhisler 14:36 Race for the Cure 1991
5) Wayne Strohman 14:48 RVside 1995
6) David Johnston 15:00 Nike 1996
2m
1) Tim Gundy 8:57 Haysville 1989
2) Lonnie Gee 9:01 River Run 1987
3) Trey Harrison 9:03 Hutchinson School Run '92
4) Roger Jennings 9:11 Wichita Turkey Trot 1988
5) Dennis Smithhisler 9:11 River Run 1989
6) Curt Shelman 9:16 River Run 1988
7) Gary Gregory 9:20 Derby 1990
8) Jeff Boleski 9:20 Derby 1990
qw best as this old mind remembers
2:16:09 Twin Cities
1:04:12 Bakersfield Ca.
48:40 10 mile Lincoln, NE
45:15 15k Tulsa Run
29:01 10k Drake
23:24 8k Sub4 Classic CA.
18:40 4 mile @Trolley Run
14:27 5k road St. Louis
JScott, looking back at the 70's and how the two major programs went about recruiting, it still doesn't sit well with me. Dodds would grab the Kansas kids like Perez and Palmer while Timmons seemed to ignore the large number of quality distance runners in state and go for studs from out of state that rarely panned out. I walked on as did Joel Cambron who did okay but outside of Glenn Harter who was from California the other scholarship guys bombed. I never understood why Timmie didn't throw a little money to guys like you or some of those good western Kansas runners.