Who said anything about doping? It’s quite possible he stashed a bike on the course for example. There are more possible ways he could have cheated than not cheated, it’s not like it’s a big road marathon with thousands of spectators and people out on the course.
Now you guys are just getting ridiculous. There were other runners not even to Barr Camp on the way up by the time he finished. He would have been passing them the whole way down. There are aid stations and SAR crews every few miles. No, there aren’t thousands of people out on the course like a road marathon, but there were still enough that somebody would have noticed if he was riding a bike or significantly cutting the course.
^^^R. Ruiz is correct, the bike comment is so far beyond ridiculous it's clear either "outside" is a troll or has never been near the Barr trail.
To wit: I moved to CO after college and being a bit burnt on running took up mtn bike racing in the late 80's/early 90's. Although not pro-level, I trained seriously and did well in the amateur ranks. Sometime in the early 90's I decided to ride up the Barr trail, thinking at 13ish miles it'd take 2-3 hours. It took OVER 7, and I would have been SOL had I tried to ride down at that point (dusk). Fortunately some kind folks gave me a ride down (on the road, obviously) - lesson learned. What lesson? The lower half up to Barr camp is largely rideable, and I made predictably decent time. Above that everything went to hell - never-ending rocks, switchbacks, and piles of gritty gravel like sand that pile up on the trail at various points. Translation: it turned into a grewsome hike-a-bike in cycling shoes, pure misery. Next lesson: a couple years later I quit the MTB scene and started running again, except now mountain running. Result - when I ran the PPM I hit the summit in the low 2:50's - more than twice as fast as I had gone on the bike!
While most of the commenters on this thread appear to have at least some sense of what mountain running is, clearly a few do not. It's not the Berlin Marathon, that's for sure.
This is like a really long way of saying you are extremely proud to know Matt personally and nothing more. Like cool story, bro. For real. We are envious, of course.
I'm not extremely proud to know Matt personally. In fact, I think that's kind of a weird thought for you to have. To me, Matt was just a friendly (if sometimes gratingly arrogant) competitor who happened to end up in my neighborhood. He went in one direction -- focusing on being really good in a part of the sport that I didn't pay any significant attention to -- and I went in a very different direction -- focusing on being really good in the often difficult but extremely fulfilling area of appellate law. I kept a finger in the sport of running, off and on, and still do, but choosing to go all-in with running as so many others seem to do would almost certainly have been a terrible, terrible mistake for me. I'm now at a point in my life when I'm happy to stop by and see that Matt seems to be doing well at life outside of running. I continue to follow the sport a bit, but I find it less and less interesting, and -- though the runners I've met generally seem very pleasant -- there's a somewhat creepy and obsessive aspect of the focus on racing times and running bucket lists that seems to have grown over the years and magnified by social media and technological gadgetry. I still run, however. That, I hope, will continue for a long time.
Is Avocado's number Matt Carpenter or his wife or something? Don't understand why this guy is so pressed.
Now you guys are just getting ridiculous. There were other runners not even to Barr Camp on the way up by the time he finished. He would have been passing them the whole way down. There are aid stations and SAR crews every few miles. No, there aren’t thousands of people out on the course like a road marathon, but there were still enough that somebody would have noticed if he was riding a bike or significantly cutting the course.
^^^R. Ruiz is correct, the bike comment is so far beyond ridiculous it's clear either "outside" is a troll or has never been near the Barr trail.
To wit: I moved to CO after college and being a bit burnt on running took up mtn bike racing in the late 80's/early 90's. Although not pro-level, I trained seriously and did well in the amateur ranks. Sometime in the early 90's I decided to ride up the Barr trail, thinking at 13ish miles it'd take 2-3 hours. It took OVER 7, and I would have been SOL had I tried to ride down at that point (dusk). Fortunately some kind folks gave me a ride down (on the road, obviously) - lesson learned. What lesson? The lower half up to Barr camp is largely rideable, and I made predictably decent time. Above that everything went to hell - never-ending rocks, switchbacks, and piles of gritty gravel like sand that pile up on the trail at various points. Translation: it turned into a grewsome hike-a-bike in cycling shoes, pure misery. Next lesson: a couple years later I quit the MTB scene and started running again, except now mountain running. Result - when I ran the PPM I hit the summit in the low 2:50's - more than twice as fast as I had gone on the bike!
While most of the commenters on this thread appear to have at least some sense of what mountain running is, clearly a few do not. It's not the Berlin Marathon, that's for sure.
Hah, you got me! I've never been to Pikes, like ever and I in fact have never met nor personally know any of the people being discussed. Its almost as if I am as I initially described myself.
But I guess, you have to know Pikes like the back of your hand and have received custard from the custard guy to have an opinion on this topic.
You know what, this just proves it. Open and shut case. No possible way the time could either be a result of error or cheating. Nice job guys!
TL; DR this guy comes on every time Matt Carpenter is discussed and fervently defends him. People can talk about the “custard guy” whenever they want. You and Sage are alike as Sage always manages to find a thread talking about himself. You both have gigantic egos.
For decades, I would have been the last person I'd have expected to be defending him. I thought he got way too much attention in various media and had a cult-like following that seemed silly. But on this message board, the opposite seems true. His accomplishments in the tiny world of mountain running and high-altitude racing, which to me seemed entirely reasonable for someone with his level of talent and focus, started getting challenged as illegitimate by people who apparently just aren't particularly talented or accomplished, even within that little world. That annoyed me, to the point of speaking out about it. But it's really not about defending the legitimacy of Matt's accomplishments, about which there is no serious doubt among knowledgeable observers. It's probably more about the toxic ways that some people deal with their own failures or limitations. I tend to see less of that toxicity among people who are more comfortable about what they've done in their own lives.
Personally I think Matt had a lookalike jump out from the bushes a mile or two from the top and then they switched places again on the way back down after Matt had had a lovely rest.
Personally I think Matt had a lookalike jump out from the bushes a mile or two from the top and then they switched places again on the way back down after Matt had had a lovely rest.
ohhhh like a classic british murder mystery.
Matt always had a twin that their parents had adopted out. he grew up with adopted parents that mistreated him and made him sweep coal and thresh grain in the field all day. and then when his parents die in a tragic locomotive accident, he finds his real parents and discovers he has a long lost ultrarunner brother. with the twin unknown to the outside world, they band together to be an unstoppable force and collect hundreds of dollars a fiscal quarter in the lucrative american mountain running scene.
their caper earns them THOUSANDS of dollars over a decade, only to be found out by the digital sleuths of LETSRUN in 2023.
"And we would've gotten away with it, were it not for those BROJOS and their little MESSAGEBOARD"
Personally I think Matt had a lookalike jump out from the bushes a mile or two from the top and then they switched places again on the way back down after Matt had had a lovely rest.
ohhhh like a classic british murder mystery.
Matt always had a twin that their parents had adopted out. he grew up with adopted parents that mistreated him and made him sweep coal and thresh grain in the field all day. and then when his parents die in a tragic locomotive accident, he finds his real parents and discovers he has a long lost ultrarunner brother. with the twin unknown to the outside world, they band together to be an unstoppable force and collect hundreds of dollars a fiscal quarter in the lucrative american mountain running scene.
their caper earns them THOUSANDS of dollars over a decade, only to be found out by the digital sleuths of LETSRUN in 2023.
"And we would've gotten away with it, were it not for those BROJOS and their little MESSAGEBOARD"
Is Avocado's number Matt Carpenter or his wife or something? Don't understand why this guy is so pressed.
Because I am one of SJD's biggest defenders on this forum, I understand Avocado's Number's passion.
I feel the need to defend SJD from the bullies even though it generally generates more negative stuff about SJD and, just two days ago, insinuations that my late mother slept around.
Personally I think Matt had a lookalike jump out from the bushes a mile or two from the top and then they switched places again on the way back down after Matt had had a lovely rest.
ohhhh like a classic british murder mystery.
Matt always had a twin that their parents had adopted out. he grew up with adopted parents that mistreated him and made him sweep coal and thresh grain in the field all day. and then when his parents die in a tragic locomotive accident, he finds his real parents and discovers he has a long lost ultrarunner brother. with the twin unknown to the outside world, they band together to be an unstoppable force and collect hundreds of dollars a fiscal quarter in the lucrative american mountain running scene.
their caper earns them THOUSANDS of dollars over a decade, only to be found out by the digital sleuths of LETSRUN in 2023.
"And we would've gotten away with it, were it not for those BROJOS and their little MESSAGEBOARD"
That's exactly what happened. How do you know this?
TL; DR this guy comes on every time Matt Carpenter is discussed and fervently defends him. People can talk about the “custard guy” whenever they want. You and Sage are alike as Sage always manages to find a thread talking about himself. You both have gigantic egos.
For decades, I would have been the last person I'd have expected to be defending him. I thought he got way too much attention in various media and had a cult-like following that seemed silly. But on this message board, the opposite seems true. His accomplishments in the tiny world of mountain running and high-altitude racing, which to me seemed entirely reasonable for someone with his level of talent and focus, started getting challenged as illegitimate by people who apparently just aren't particularly talented or accomplished, even within that little world. That annoyed me, to the point of speaking out about it. But it's really not about defending the legitimacy of Matt's accomplishments, about which there is no serious doubt among knowledgeable observers. It's probably more about the toxic ways that some people deal with their own failures or limitations. I tend to see less of that toxicity among people who are more comfortable about what they've done in their own lives.
Okay (assuming you are not actually Matt!).
The way I see it is that Matt's biggest career accomplishment (by far and biggest outlier) is that 3:16 Pikes Peak Marathon Record.
Yes, he still has the Leadville 100 record (Rob Krar pretty much equaled that already though) and he also won Pikes (both the marathon and ascent) a ton.....much like a Scott Jurek streak at Western States.
But other than that?
A 1:05 half marathon PR (pretty much inline with his marathon PR and similar to SJD!)
A 2:19:xx + marathon PR (still very good)
A 2:40 showing at Sierre-Zinal (not bad)
A 59:xx time at the iconic MT. WA hill climb.
A lot of wins at some fairly "small" and niche mountain races (especially back then) like the Vail Hill Climb, Imogene Pass, Barr Trail Race etc. Not to take anything away from those races and wins, but it's not like what it would be like to win UTMB or the World Mountain Running Champs, or Sierre-Zinal or Zegama nowadays or something.
I respect the history and the guys "before the Kilian Jornet" era. I respect mixing it up on Any Surface, Any Distance. I've also run a few road marathons and a few mountain races in my day too.
I'm just wondering what was so different (apparently for Matt only) in that 1993 Pikes Peak Marathon Race. It wasn't the weather. It wasn't a "different course."
Back to some objective analysis though:
Of Matt's 15 recorded finishes (not counting that record time of 3:16), his average Pikes Peak Marathon Finishing time is: 3:45:xx.
That's a great time at Pikes and usually a win. SJD almost ran that this year as part of his double (he is also a very good high altitude runner!).
Again, Matt never ran in the 3:20s himself. He went from a 3:38 PR down to a 3:16. After that he ran in the 3:30s several more times...but never within 17-minutes of that record ever again? 17-minutes is a lot at this level!!
I did a quick google for fun and your posts about Matt and this PP record go back over a decade at least on this board.
For a guy who says he's not Matt, isn't really interested in the sport of running anymore and hasn't been for years, it seems you really really and I mean really dislike the 'toxicity' as you described to be so dedicated to defending this guy. Not to mention your ability to recall many races times from various races. I gotta say, that is impressive.
I did a quick google for fun and your posts about Matt and this PP record go back over a decade at least on this board.
For a guy who says he's not Matt, isn't really interested in the sport of running anymore and hasn't been for years, it seems you really really and I mean really dislike the 'toxicity' as you described to be so dedicated to defending this guy. Not to mention your ability to recall many races times from various races. I gotta say, that is impressive.
If you read his other posts over the years, it's very obvious he can't be Matt.
For decades, I would have been the last person I'd have expected to be defending him. I thought he got way too much attention in various media and had a cult-like following that seemed silly. But on this message board, the opposite seems true. His accomplishments in the tiny world of mountain running and high-altitude racing, which to me seemed entirely reasonable for someone with his level of talent and focus, started getting challenged as illegitimate by people who apparently just aren't particularly talented or accomplished, even within that little world. That annoyed me, to the point of speaking out about it. But it's really not about defending the legitimacy of Matt's accomplishments, about which there is no serious doubt among knowledgeable observers. It's probably more about the toxic ways that some people deal with their own failures or limitations. I tend to see less of that toxicity among people who are more comfortable about what they've done in their own lives.
Okay (assuming you are not actually Matt!).
The way I see it is that Matt's biggest career accomplishment (by far and biggest outlier) is that 3:16 Pikes Peak Marathon Record.
Yes, he still has the Leadville 100 record (Rob Krar pretty much equaled that already though) and he also won Pikes (both the marathon and ascent) a ton.....much like a Scott Jurek streak at Western States.
But other than that?
A 1:05 half marathon PR (pretty much inline with his marathon PR and similar to SJD!)
A 2:19:xx + marathon PR (still very good)
A 2:40 showing at Sierre-Zinal (not bad)
A 59:xx time at the iconic MT. WA hill climb.
A lot of wins at some fairly "small" and niche mountain races (especially back then) like the Vail Hill Climb, Imogene Pass, Barr Trail Race etc. Not to take anything away from those races and wins, but it's not like what it would be like to win UTMB or the World Mountain Running Champs, or Sierre-Zinal or Zegama nowadays or something.
I respect the history and the guys "before the Kilian Jornet" era. I respect mixing it up on Any Surface, Any Distance. I've also run a few road marathons and a few mountain races in my day too.
I'm just wondering what was so different (apparently for Matt only) in that 1993 Pikes Peak Marathon Race. It wasn't the weather. It wasn't a "different course."
Back to some objective analysis though:
Of Matt's 15 recorded finishes (not counting that record time of 3:16), his average Pikes Peak Marathon Finishing time is: 3:45:xx.
That's a great time at Pikes and usually a win. SJD almost ran that this year as part of his double (he is also a very good high altitude runner!).
Again, Matt never ran in the 3:20s himself. He went from a 3:38 PR down to a 3:16. After that he ran in the 3:30s several more times...but never within 17-minutes of that record ever again? 17-minutes is a lot at this level!!
Maybe Matt had the perfect running day?
Maybe the mountain was lower that day?
Maybe I helped him?
Maybe Sage Canaday is now the Tucker Carlson of Letsrun, "just asking questions"?
Maybe Matt was just a really good mountain runner, living right under Pikes Peak. He knew every rock by first name.
Maybe he couldn't race in foreign countries that much because he didn't have sponsors who go for the "influencer types" and send them to races to promote their products.
Lots of questions but we will never know. The only thing we know is that Sage Clifton Read Canaday's official Marathon PR is the Olympic Trials marathon, where he finished 43rd in 2:18:24 in 2012.
I did a quick google for fun and your posts about Matt and this PP record go back over a decade at least on this board.
For a guy who says he's not Matt, isn't really interested in the sport of running anymore and hasn't been for years, it seems you really really and I mean really dislike the 'toxicity' as you described to be so dedicated to defending this guy. Not to mention your ability to recall many races times from various races. I gotta say, that is impressive.
If you read his other posts over the years, it's very obvious he can't be Matt.
I just skimmed them for the most part. I am not saying it is him but he is certainly downplaying his level of interest in this topic with the "oh I am not really even into this sport at all I just don't like people questioning Matt Carpenter who I think was never really even that good of a runner but I am not ok with other people saying he is not that good."
I mean, c'mon, the guy is posting paragraph after paragraph about this topic for DECADES LOL.
If you read his other posts over the years, it's very obvious he can't be Matt.
I just skimmed them for the most part. I am not saying it is him but he is certainly downplaying his level of interest in this topic with the "oh I am not really even into this sport at all I just don't like people questioning Matt Carpenter who I think was never really even that good of a runner but I am not ok with other people saying he is not that good."
I mean, c'mon, the guy is posting paragraph after paragraph about this topic for DECADES LOL.
Avocado's a lawyer of some kind, M.I.T., Air Force, Harvard Law, I think. He name drops federal judges on the different circuit courts, and been the same guy for at least 15 years. That'd be hard person to pretend to be he is really Matt.
I appreciate him defending those that he believes in. I've done the same for other runners, including Walmsley, who Sage made frequent, similar attacks on when Jim burst onto the scene. That was before Jim was picked up by Hoka, who also sponsors Sage.
I just skimmed them for the most part. I am not saying it is him but he is certainly downplaying his level of interest in this topic with the "oh I am not really even into this sport at all I just don't like people questioning Matt Carpenter who I think was never really even that good of a runner but I am not ok with other people saying he is not that good."
I mean, c'mon, the guy is posting paragraph after paragraph about this topic for DECADES LOL.
Avocado's a lawyer of some kind, M.I.T., Air Force, Harvard Law, I think. He name drops federal judges on the different circuit courts, and been the same guy for at least 15 years. That'd be hard person to pretend to be he is really Matt.
I appreciate him defending those that he believes in. I've done the same for other runners, including Walmsley, who Sage made frequent, similar attacks on when Jim burst onto the scene. That was before Jim was picked up by Hoka, who also sponsors Sage.
Ok. So like I said, that is some serious downplaying of his level of interest. Nobody spends 15 years defending a guy, spending countless hours typing up replies, if they don't care. I mean surely an MIT-Air Force-Harvard-Law guy has better things to do than discuss topics that don't really hold his interest? Or maybe he doesn't, I guess. I gotta say, it doesn't make any of his points any more convincing to me. I do appreciate it too because this has been fun.
Some of those old threads FYI are just him defending Matt's lackluster road PR's etc... they aren't even really accusing him of cheating etc... So the whole crap about just being rubbed the wrong way about accusations against him is a fabrication to mask his obsession with this topic.
Avocado's a lawyer of some kind, M.I.T., Air Force, Harvard Law, I think. He name drops federal judges on the different circuit courts, and been the same guy for at least 15 years. That'd be hard person to pretend to be he is really Matt.
I appreciate him defending those that he believes in. I've done the same for other runners, including Walmsley, who Sage made frequent, similar attacks on when Jim burst onto the scene. That was before Jim was picked up by Hoka, who also sponsors Sage.
Is that common for Hoka sponsored athletes that they are questioning the history of the sport?
Avocado's a lawyer of some kind, M.I.T., Air Force, Harvard Law, I think. He name drops federal judges on the different circuit courts, and been the same guy for at least 15 years. That'd be hard person to pretend to be he is really Matt.
I appreciate him defending those that he believes in. I've done the same for other runners, including Walmsley, who Sage made frequent, similar attacks on when Jim burst onto the scene. That was before Jim was picked up by Hoka, who also sponsors Sage.
Is that common for Hoka sponsored athletes that they are questioning the history of the sport?
That's not referring to questioning the history of the sport. They questioned product design and came out with something different that changed and influenced product across the industry (thicker, cupped midsoles with some kind of rocker bottom profile).
My point about Sage and Jim was that Sage shut up his inane/insane attacks on Jim once they became brand teammates. Obviously, it would be a bad look to attack your teammate. Not sure if he figured that out himself, got to know Jim and his background better, or if Hoka had to tell him to zip it.
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