Whether the double was a dumb idea seems beside the point now. She wasn't competitive in that 1500, and that wasn't just due to the early pace. She's clearly not at 100%.
The notion that the runner we saw yesterday would've "easily" taken the 5000 if fresh is just absurd.
For the record, I'm not a hater. I tuned in yesterday really hoping she would do it.
I don’t hate Tuohy, but I can’t stand her myopic cheering section. So, if it takes abject failure by Tuohy to devastate Astro, Semi, etc., I can live with that. May her bad streak continue. Fat chance at USAs, little buddy.
You don't hate her, but you want her 'bad streak' to continue? Why in the world would you want such a thing? This is one race... people need to seriously get a grip. If you've got a problem with her fans, fine, but I don't know how much more she has to do to demonstrate to some of these ridiculous haters that she is a great person and great teammate. Get a life people.
Why would I want such a thing? I explained why. I want her to be vanquished because I want her toolbag obsessive cheerleaders such as Astro to be unhappy. I respect Tuohy’s running, she might even (maaaayyybe) make a U.S. team someday, but — newsflash — I don’t have to root for her. I can even root against her, as I do against the 49ers, Red Sox, Christian Coleman and Phil Mickelson.
I’m calling BS on Tuohy having a physical problem. OF COURSE Henes would use that as an excuse to try to help Tuohy save face. Henes would never admit the truth about Tuohy being demoralized by losing in the 1500 and dreading the thought of having to face Valby in the 5000. Tuohy knew that Valby would push the pace as she always does, and Tuohy wanted no part of that.
If Tuohy had a physical problem then she wouldn’t have taken the lead in the 1500 the way she did. She would have run more conservatively. She still ran a solid time. Tuohy was fine physically. The problem was her deflated spirit.
EXACTLY. Now it comes out that she's been "off for weeks". Ok coach, then why did you sign her up for the double!?! Also, why did you then tell her to run a 64 first lap if she's been "off" and went into that race not feeling her best? Extremely poor decisions if you knew your athlete has not been her best for several weeks. Should have ran her more conservatively then, that's a no brainier. I'm not buying it, it really looks like it's just an excuse now after the fact....it really looks more like both of them were overconfident, didn't plan good tactics, Tuohy couldn't handle the competition and back to back to back races when other runners could. Which means she's not as good at championship racing as the other runners who showed up. Then, when it became apparent that she couldn't handle the rounds and the fast/tough competition, she quit to save face and now is coming up with this "mysterious" excuse that's she's been "off". I think the scratch was psychological. Look at her face the last 100m of that 1500, she literally puts her head down at one point.
Even the LRC podcasters agreed. Disrespectful would be starting threads or crashing Valby's threads to argue that Tuohy would have won. I said from the beginning that this double was very risky because it was jeopardizing a very likely title in the 5000m. People are protesting way too much about a perfectly reasonable what if/oh well scenario. Again she just beat Valby doubling at regionals and would not have had to run the rounds in the 1500. Even worn down last year she ran a 15:19 slowing down at the line. But again, when I say it is academic it means the book has been written and Valby won fair and square.
You are being unfair about Henes/Tuohy miscalculating. She successfully pulled off the double at regionals, outkicking Ramsdan in the 1500 and easily beating Valby in the 5000m. And she has run in the heat before and won there. You are criticizing them really not for misjudgment but for the lack of clairvoyance that she would have a very bad day. How the hell would they know that in advance?
The only similarity to Wake Forest was that she faded, but she still ran 4:08.29 as opposed to 4:11, and she beat Ramsdan there as well. Looking at the 300/700/1100 splits at WF, it was 47.75, 152.99, and 300:69, compared to 47:90, 155.28 and 303.95 last night. And WF was her first race back after a break following Indoors. That is over a three second difference at the 1100, and was right in the 3:03 range that people were suggesting. So there are not really comparable. Tuohy went out slightly slower, but then slowed the pace down well below her WF pace.
And there was nothing wrong with scratching from the 5000m if she was not feeling well after the 1500m. She has been the consummate team runner from the moment she showed up at NCSt. Her coach looked out for her, which is the point, not satisfying the expectations of message board denizens.
Going out in 47.90 and 153 at WF put her in a physiological hole. Opening 47.75 and 155 in beastly conditions repeated the same critical mistake.
Even the LRC podcasters agreed. Disrespectful would be starting threads or crashing Valby's threads to argue that Tuohy would have won. I said from the beginning that this double was very risky because it was jeopardizing a very likely title in the 5000m. People are protesting way too much about a perfectly reasonable what if/oh well scenario. Again she just beat Valby doubling at regionals and would not have had to run the rounds in the 1500. Even worn down last year she ran a 15:19 slowing down at the line. But again, when I say it is academic it means the book has been written and Valby won fair and square.
You are being unfair about Henes/Tuohy miscalculating. She successfully pulled off the double at regionals, outkicking Ramsdan in the 1500 and easily beating Valby in the 5000m. And she has run in the heat before and won there. You are criticizing them really not for misjudgment but for the lack of clairvoyance that she would have a very bad day. How the hell would they know that in advance?
The only similarity to Wake Forest was that she faded, but she still ran 4:08.29 as opposed to 4:11, and she beat Ramsdan there as well. Looking at the 300/700/1100 splits at WF, it was 47.75, 152.99, and 300:69, compared to 47:90, 155.28 and 303.95 last night. And WF was her first race back after a break following Indoors. That is over a three second difference at the 1100, and was right in the 3:03 range that people were suggesting. So there are not really comparable. Tuohy went out slightly slower, but then slowed the pace down well below her WF pace.
And there was nothing wrong with scratching from the 5000m if she was not feeling well after the 1500m. She has been the consummate team runner from the moment she showed up at NCSt. Her coach looked out for her, which is the point, not satisfying the expectations of message board denizens.
If you will take a breath and notice, the posters on this site are giving your "Tuohy would have won" posts a lot of negative votes. Every one of them. Read the room.
Thankfully we have a case that compares. Britton Wilson was attempting a double that was also considered impossible. Incredibly difficult. Despite actual performances this entire season that warranted the decision, she still wasn't able to win either race last night. No shame. She congratulated the winner immediately after the 400. She did not let her disappointment keep her from showing excellent sportsmanship. Then she showed up in the 400H and gave her best effort that she had left. If anything, I think she demonstrated that this double is very likely impossible. If a talent like Britton Wilson can't do it, then I would bet no one can. I have total respect for her for trying, for showing good sportsmanship, and for seeing it through. A total class act.
Tuohy did not have one single race result that showed that she would succeed in this double. Not like Britton Wilson did. I just assumed that some real magic was happening on the NC State campus that we were all unaware of I was hoping she would do it. I was cheering her on. I was disappointed for her that she got passed in the 1500. But I don't think she had a bad race. It was consistent with her other efforts. She was just in a talented field of 1500 runners and she got beat. Looking back at the race I don't think there was any way she was winning that. For every runner who could go out hard there were more who could sit back and close. That was a tough field to beat.
There were no surprises last night, and her result is consistent with her other efforts. It is not like this result was any kind of outlier.
You seem a little manic over this. There does not have to be a reason that Katelyn Tuohy loses. Maybe yesterday she was simply not the fastest 1500m runner. Maybe she got outraced by Mia Ramsden. There does not have to be a grand excuse. She still could have shown at least decent sportsmanship. This is not the first time she has responded to a loss this way. It is not a good look. Get mad if you want, but there was an opportunity to show class and she missed it. Just saying. I'm sure she will learn from this and improve in the future. She always does. It is a testament to her talent that she has so little experience taking a loss.
I’m calling BS on Tuohy having a physical problem. OF COURSE Henes would use that as an excuse to try to help Tuohy save face. Henes would never admit the truth about Tuohy being demoralized by losing in the 1500 and dreading the thought of having to face Valby in the 5000. Tuohy knew that Valby would push the pace as she always does, and Tuohy wanted no part of that.
If Tuohy had a physical problem then she wouldn’t have taken the lead in the 1500 the way she did. She would have run more conservatively. She still ran a solid time. Tuohy was fine physically. The problem was her deflated spirit.
EXACTLY. Now it comes out that she's been "off for weeks". Ok coach, then why did you sign her up for the double!?! Also, why did you then tell her to run a 64 first lap if she's been "off" and went into that race not feeling her best? Extremely poor decisions if you knew your athlete has not been her best for several weeks. Should have ran her more conservatively then, that's a no brainier. I'm not buying it, it really looks like it's just an excuse now after the fact....it really looks more like both of them were overconfident, didn't plan good tactics, Tuohy couldn't handle the competition and back to back to back races when other runners could. Which means she's not as good at championship racing as the other runners who showed up. Then, when it became apparent that she couldn't handle the rounds and the fast/tough competition, she quit to save face and now is coming up with this "mysterious" excuse that's she's been "off". I think the scratch was psychological. Look at her face the last 100m of that 1500, she literally puts her head down at one point.
This is my impression too. I think Henes is trying to save face as much for herself as anything. Not only has her team deteriorated this season, but Katelyn Tuohy just had the worst showing in her entire career on Hene's watch.
Read the room? I live in some posters heads rent free, they downvote anything I post, and I have seen enough downvote manipulation that I ignore it. Getting downvoted here is a badge of honor. Well a small one anyway. It is simple. I make a point. Disagree? Then explain why I am wrong. Otherwise I don't care.
Anyway I made the points I wanted to make. Nothing at Regionals suggested that she would have such a tough go. Sorry. The only "excuse" I have come up with is that she had a bad day, and I responded to the podcast information. Hindsight is 20/20. She lost the 1500m fair and square, bad day or not. Never suggested otherwise. Finally you are assuming that she scratched because she was upset, as opposed to spent/exhausted in the onerous heat everyone is talking about and her coach was looking at the big picture. That is unfair.
Read the room? I live in some posters heads rent free, they downvote anything I post, and I have seen enough downvote manipulation that I ignore it. Getting downvoted here is a badge of honor. Well a small one anyway. It is simple. I make a point. Disagree? Then explain why I am wrong. Otherwise I don't care.
Anyway I made the points I wanted to make. Nothing at Regionals suggested that she would have such a tough go. Sorry. The only "excuse" I have come up with is that she had a bad day, and I responded to the podcast information. Hindsight is 20/20. She lost the 1500m fair and square, bad day or not. Never suggested otherwise. Finally you are assuming that she scratched because she was upset, as opposed to spent/exhausted in the onerous heat everyone is talking about and her coach was looking at the big picture. That is unfair.
No point arguing with some people. Here’s what I know, concern trolls are a sneaky kind of troll that try to play both sides and kind of fly under the radar at times , but pretty sure I’ve had a sighting last couple of days.
Wow the letsrun message board never disappoints. I can’t tell if this is a discourse on a collegiate female runner or Idi Amin. I’m no Tuohy super fan but oh boy.
I saw Touhy run in person a few weeks ago when she broke the 5k record and I could tell she was just running flat. I think anyone who has run collegiately knows how difficult it is to run well all 3 seasons of XC, indoors, and outdoors. Never mind at the level of winning NCAA championships and breaking records. Then oh yeah school because Adam Silver ain’t gonna be inviting you up on that stage.
Seems like the only one to have done that recently is King Ches and that probably burned him out as he hasn’t done much as a pro. Might want to recall that one Shalane Flanagan literally began walking during her sophomore year at mile 3. For evidence see exhibit
thanks to our gracious overlords. Meteivier talking smack is hilarious. She may or may not have pooped her pants the following year at ACCs lol. Karma gonna get ya.
Hopefully Tuohy learns from this and decides to stay in school longer. Seems to have worked Luis.
Read the room? I live in some posters heads rent free, they downvote anything I post, and I have seen enough downvote manipulation that I ignore it. Getting downvoted here is a badge of honor. Well a small one anyway. It is simple. I make a point. Disagree? Then explain why I am wrong. Otherwise I don't care.
Anyway I made the points I wanted to make. Nothing at Regionals suggested that she would have such a tough go. Sorry. The only "excuse" I have come up with is that she had a bad day, and I responded to the podcast information. Hindsight is 20/20. She lost the 1500m fair and square, bad day or not. Never suggested otherwise. Finally you are assuming that she scratched because she was upset, as opposed to spent/exhausted in the onerous heat everyone is talking about and her coach was looking at the big picture. That is unfair.
The only thing certain is that you're a pompous d-bag. "Live in some posters heads rent free...", give me break. Dude, you really need get a life. Let me guess: you don't have a lot of close friends because most people you know are "idiots" and you don't suffer fools? Am I close? (I'm sure I am as it oozes out of you, but I'm looking forward to your response in which you say you are immensely well-liked and TONS of close friends, lol).
You made your point, nearly everyone disagrees, and you apparently have nothing more to do with your weekend then spend all your time on LRC doubling and tripling and quadrupling down. On her best day, Touhy is the best 5000m runner NCAA, but she was off and no way of knowing that she would have won and in fact seems likely she wouldn't have. So move along, skippy.
Exactly. There is no mystery. Even Henes has said that college runners only have a limited number of big efforts in them a year. She was setting course records all through XC, ran an extraordinary XC nationals race, ran terrific times all through indoors, breaking three ncaa records, ran some remarkable DMR splits, won the 3000/5000 double at NCAAs, etc. In retrospect it is unreasonable to think she could maintain that peak, and she has been running flat races since, including when she ran 15:03. The criticism that Henes probably deserves is that her coach should have recognized it and not gone for such a crazy double. The 1500 is an unforgiving race.
Beyond that, this site has had a group of dedicated haters that have gone after her since high school. One off race going back to Millrose, 2018 and here they come. They play it off as just reacting to rabid fans, but that is demonstrably false. The tall reed catches the wind.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Tuohy couldn't handle the competition and back to back to back races when other runners could. Which means she's not as good at championship racing as the other runners who showed up.
I don’t think you can say that someone who has won 4 NCAA national championship titles is not good at championship racing relative the competition, most of whom have won zero. Yes, she did have poor tactics last night, but she was also not as fit or as fast as she needed to be. Tactics are easier to deploy and more impactful if you are at the top of your game, which she was not.