Norwegian Training Approach - Threshold Focused

No need to wear a watch either to improve your running, but ppl like to measure what they want to measure

Well, it's of course a free choice to measure or not measure, but good to know you don't have to buy an expensive lactate meter to do perfect lactate threshold training . Of Course also nice to avoid the blood samples......😉🧙‍♂️

Here's something you can try. I've been performing lactate testing for running and cycling for 3 years now.

Field testing protocol 1:

Run at an easy pace for 10 minutes, take a sample.

Run at a moderate pace, say near marathon pace, for 10 minutes, take a sample.

Do one last interval, at say 5-k pace, for 10 minutes and take another sample.

Now, plot your lactate data in excel. pace vs. blood lactate concentration. You should have a basic curve to estimate where mlss might be.

OPTIONAL:

Run at what you think is threshold from the previous data and do 10 minutes and take a sample. Repeat the threshold lap at the same pace and take another sample at 10 minutes. See if the two readings are similar.

Field testing protocol 2:

Perform a ramp-style incremental effort test on a track or treadmill with lactate samples every 3-5 minutes. Ensure the test can go for 40-50 minutes as to have a slow of a ramp as possible. You want to limit the dynamic effects of the incremental-style test, so the shallower the slope of the ramp, the better.

Now, plot your lactate data in excel. pace vs. blood lactate concentration. You should have a basic curve to estimate where mlss might be.

OPTIONAL:
Run at what you think is threshold from the previous data and do 10 minutes and take a sample. Repeat the threshold lap at the same pace and take another sample at 10 minutes. See if the two readings are similar.

Read Billat's work. She's super smart.

https://publications.billatraining.com/publications/2003/Billat_concept_of_MLSS.pdf

Thanks a lot! 👍

You clearly have not been paying much attention in endurance sports outside of running, and the entire premise of this thread. For such a small country, the Norwegians have not only produced the inghebrightsens, (impressive enough in itself) but also the more compelling results of the Norwegians’ training system being conclusively cutting edge is when you also look at their top triathletes breaking world records and sitting atop the sport of triathlon as well.

The small country’s bafflingly unmistakably ground breaking results across multiple endurance sports by utilizing similar training methodologies for their respective sports is what really makes the case that they might be onto something…

Norwegians have a systematic pharmacological advantage built on decades of dominance in CC skiing. They have the best gray zone system in the World and it shows.

They had 2 guys sub 13:20 last year and 1 sub 28. There are college teams that do that. If the system is so good where is the depth? How come they can't have a dozen runners within like 45s of the WR? It is one thing to have a couple top guys. That's talent. Have dozens of them and you have a system that works.

The system is definitely solid. It isn't clear it is noticeably better than anything else out there. If you go back to lydiards base (2 hard aerobic runs, some up tempo, and volume) there are lots of variations that work. Personally I like the idea of double thresholds and being able to progressively overload more easily than just run an hour hard. But the differences in training effects aren't huge.

The state of New Jersey has 2x the amount of people as Norway, and as others have mentioned, most of the top endurance athletes are not in running.

How many kids around the globe are going to college in Norway? Kind of a ridiculous analogy when US college is basically a global landscape for competition.

Thanks for such a great response and insights. I found what you said about the 8-12 second bouts improving the lactate shuttle especially interesting and would be curious if you could expound a bit more on the topic…

Specifically, what kinds of speeds are you talking about here? All-out maximal sprints with full rests or something more like 800m - 3k speeds with shorter rested and repeated continuously?

Sat "X element"?

I was doing 6-10×45s @stride effort 5-6% gradient/90s rest, what else can we do, throw me some variants if:

1) main focus 5K races

2) main focus 10K races

3) main focus HM races

4) main focus M races

5) post race season transition time

Bump

Would love to hear some thoughts from people on using this approach for the marathon. Just use similar workouts but increase the lengths?

Turn 400-1k-2k reps into 1k-3k-5k, etc. progressing upwards? Obviously more focus on the long run as well, possibly putting these workouts into the long run.

I used double threshold approach in my marathon preparation, but as a 6 weeks strength block after 12 weeks base block and before 10weeks marathon block.

Can tell you my own experience:

1) I started very conservative, am session 5x6min/60rest with lactate reading below 2.4, around 2.1-2.2, pm session 25x400 & 10x3min with lactate reading below 2.8-2.9; easy days almost always doubles: 40/40 and slowly progressed to 50/50 or 40/60 with super slow pace (lactate around 1mmol), by heart rate it is about almost always below 68% of HRmax. Every easy day between doubles I felt trashed like sh@t, but during workouts day I hit all of them about 98-99% according plan and lactate level. Most scary thing was in the specific long run days: you feel trashed, but once you started fastest part of the workout everything is going, every time when I started specific workout I could not believe that can completed, but every time complete it and feel strong, magic...

2) X element on saturday from 4 reps by 45s uphill slowly built to 10-12

3) 2 double thresholds+x element + medium long run or long run in one week is very treaky beast, some weeks I skipped medium long run because could not recover well untill next doubles

4) I completed 12 threshold, 6 x-elements and 4 long runs and maybe only 2 or 3 medium runs during this block

5) it works, about almost every double session the pm one feel better and easier, if you have time between them less than 4-5 hours (my personnal feel), magic

6) strength training 1-2 times per week

7) I could not believe that I was able ever to do per week total duration near threshold more than 1hour and consistently many weeks in a row, after that 20min tempo or 40min LT intervals per week it's looking so funny and peanuts... not enough... at least for the distances more than 10km for good performance and endurance, magic

Next 10 weeks marathon block I moved little bit away from doubles and took more classic approach to the marathon: 5key marathon workouts by MPR coach+strength training: fastest one: 6x1600@10K/2min jog once per 3 weeks (my favorite workout), 10K @HM- once every 3 weeks, 16K @MP once per 3 weeks, 16Keasy+16K@MP -once per 3 weeks (most scaried workout for me), Long run (slowest one) - every week except weeks where was specific long runs. Some weeks where I had only 1 workout 16K @MP and 1 long run, I still was doing +1double threshold: 5x6min@MP+10x3min @Threshold, comletely removed X element in this block (can give some space to the second strength training day during week instead, here I have some questions: may be it is better still to leave one workout every 3rd/4th week too?). Some sessions like 6x1600 and 10K@HM I was replaced with the real race. All 16 weeks 3 times per week strides (15s/25s length every other week alternation). No any fast staff here, except strides, the fastest pace in the block is 10K workouts..

This is experimental training plan, for sure it has some errors, mistakes and bullsh@ts...😆, but until it works on my progression, I'll use it, and my body likes 10K/HM approach more than 5K/10K approach (here I got a lot of injuries).

Thanks for your training report and congrats on your progression!

What kind of time (race) goals and weekly mileage totals are you hitting on this training?

How was the rest managed on a workout like 25 x 400m to keep lactate readings under 3.0mmol?

Also, a Tempo of 10km at HM race pace? I'd say for anyone faster than 1:15-1:12 in the half that would pretty intense and draw fairly high mmol readings. 2 x 5km however with a short rest would be more manageable.

Science of Running podcast just came out with an eppie on this topic today. I thought it was a good listen.

Theyre not gray doping,theyre full on blood,and EPO doping,and perhaps certain steroids as well.

Only in US the do not dope :)

"
3) main focus HM races
4) main focus M races
5) post race season transition time"

3 + 4) -> long run with a chunk of M pace or a bit slower. For this you have to build up,first year only shorter long easy run 24-30km,when you can recover then longer easy,then 30-32K with a bit of M pace or a bit slower... so on.For HM it an be 20-24K with M pace or a bit faster.

HM and M you have to prepare your body to be able to train week after week

5) post season -> strides on flat or easier gradient...working on turnover but a bit shorter work then usual.

1) I was able to hit 105 mile (maximum), average was about 90 miles and when I was dropping below 85 miles some weeks due to my job schedule I feeled little bit erroded aerobically (lack of easy volume, do not know how to explain...).

2) 24X400m the rest was 30s, first weeks pace was around 15K, and than I was able to drop the pace near 8-12K with the same rest

3) 10km tempo was at current fitness HM, it was my first time ever such a long and tough workout, but surprisingly manageable after 6 weeks of double thresholds and even I did one workout at around 12km of total volume. After doubles, first thing what I noticed, that my muscles are become much stronger and I was able to perform next workouts at tired/fatigued legs, but finished plannet volume 100% each time (amazing and strange feeling), I would say like I got more endurance after this block.

4) last most curious and difficult thing to understand this: when you feel good and fresh & at the warm up your heart rate is low, but first reps you also feel fresh, but lactate reading is signalling "red" and you cannot lift the heart rate during workout, and you have to drop pace in the next reps in order to reduce lactate level below "danger zone".

....and opposite: at the workout day you feel yourself trashed, at the warm up heart rate is high, but after couple of reps lactate readings are low and you able to increase heart rate well and hit all workout volume and some extras more, "green light" where you must push, it's crazy controversal 🤷

Without lactate meter it is extremely difficult to control such things (you need morning heart rate analysis, warm up heart rate analysis, each reps to control how much up is going heart rate, cool down analysis), otherwise after couple of weeks you will be cooked like a Turkey 😆🤷

Sage, thank you for your advice 🙏. You will be always for me respectfull runner, not because your goals in the past, but because you are explaining things why we are doing them and understand methodology very well, I watched almost all your youtube videos.