Keira D'amato is Suspicious

Armstronglivs wrote:

ex-runner wrote:

Is it possible that older women have higher testosterone levels and lower estrogen?

It doesn't make a difference to women athletes (unless they dope) as their testosterone levels are naturally only between about 0.5-2.8 nmols. Compare this to men, who have a range from about 8-29 nmols. Older women don't have t-levels outside the norm for women. What is more significant is the reduction in muscle mass and strength (which men also experience as they age) and declining cardio-vascular efficiency, which is why masters athletes become progressively slower and cannot beat open athletes in their prime. So everything should be counting against D'Amato at age 37, compared to a 27 year-old. Her powers are going in the wrong direction.

Despite the lab evidence that says athletes should be better at 27 Vs 37, the observed reality is that many elite marathon runners do extremely well at 35+. Kipchoge and Bekele both running their best times at '35' (probably more like 38)

I don't know why that is, maybe it is the culmination of years of training leading to a body which is extremely adapted for endurance performance. Running economy takes time to improve. Neuromuscular patterns etc.

Let's remember that all of the physiological factors which everyone says decline with age, are not that relevant for marathon running; peak strength, peak heart rate, even VO2max

Careful ... not everyone bases or dismisses their long-held beliefs on "observed reality".

What many seem to under-value is that D'Amato retired and didn't compete for several years. We cannot equate her with athletes at the tail end of 20 years of continuous competition.

For comparison, I was looking at Irina Mikitenko's performances. For 10 years, she was a 2:24 runner, and then in 2008, produced a 2:19:19 at 36 years of age, followed by a couple of 2:22's over the next years, one at the age of 39. I don't find that progression particularly unusual, especially considering that women's marathons tend to be tactical, rather than time trials, and a five minute difference can be explained by race day conditions and race tactics.

More than one elite coach has told us of the need for 7-10 years to build your "aerobic house". Coaches from Lydiard to Canova have said something similar.

Now, factor in the new shoes that give 4% improved efficiency, and D'Amato's American record is not anything that should be particularly unexpected 10-15 years after Kastor and Mikitenko. If a 2:2x runner, is running 3:49 and 3:10, we should expect massive improvements some years after the day she decides to train and race to her potential.

When a 37 year old runner sets a national professional record it sets off every doping red flag there is. Everyone posting here knows it, and the grasping excuses smack of desperation.

This is a dirty sport. Like cycling the best you can hope for is not a clean sport but one that is relatively cleaner than the worst abuses. But even there you realize that the doping of choice in distance running is virtually uncatchable and even the most improbable performances will be excused based on denial, delusion or chauvanism. The calculation all of the top athletes make is that all their competitors are doping too, and so long as they avoid the very unlikely chance of getting caught, they can reap the rewards. We have decades of nice, decent, charming athletes swear that they would never and we know each and every time that they were lying. That's the reality.

One difference is that Mikitenko (not exactly above suspicion with her Soviet background) was a world class track runner in her mid/late 20s (8:30, 14:42) 4th in the 1999, 5th in 2001 Worlds and the 2000 Olympics in the 5k etc.

So this would be more like Rowbury, Simpson, Huddle or Infield running an AR a few years after a high level track career and a baby break.

If there were (m)any halfway obvious analogues to D'Amato's development people would not be as surprised or suspicious.

The other problem is that in the 90s and even 10 years ago there were still mostly rational relationships between track and road times. With shoes or not enough testing or whatever the road times have gone completely crazy in the last ca. 4 years.

So this gives D'Amato a pass to some extent, or one can (as I do) not take any road mark of the last few years without a truckload of salt.

You are assuming that the older runners you mention have not used drugs. As doping is endemic in sports now the chances are they have. Most are not caught. D'Amato would certainly not be alone in this.

Armstronglivs wrote:

…wilful naivity…

Self-appointed defenders are always blinded by naivety — do you remember in the early days of the Caster Semanya debacle that there were people saying that endogenous testosterone from undescended testes could not be said to provide an advantage because previous doping studies had only really addressed the effects of exogenous hormones?

It’s the same type of tortured and twisted logic here. I’m wondering if rekrunner doesn’t want to believe that there are people doping in her local master’s racing scene?

I'm not thinking of anyone off the top of my head.

Who are some male and female marathoners who are confirmed doping violators?

Jo72 wrote:

One difference is that Mikitenko (not exactly above suspicion with her Soviet background) was a world class track runner in her mid/late 20s (8:30, 14:42) 4th in the 1999, 5th in 2001 Worlds and the 2000 Olympics in the 5k etc.

So this would be more like Rowbury, Simpson, Huddle or Infield running an AR a few years after a high level track career and a baby break.

If there were (m)any halfway obvious analogues to D'Amato's development people would not be as surprised or suspicious.

True -- not many other examples of an athlete who retired for 7 years, saving their body from the wear and tear of competition.

Makes Paper wrote:

I'm not thinking of anyone off the top of my head.

Who are some male and female marathoners who are confirmed doping violators?

Jemima Sumong 2016 Oly Marathon Gold- Busted for EPO in 2017.

Abraham Kiptum- WR Half Marathon set in 2018 rescinded for ABP abnormalities in 2019.

row 18 wrote:

Makes Paper wrote:

I'm not thinking of anyone off the top of my head.

Who are some male and female marathoners who are confirmed doping violators?

Jemima Sumong 2016 Oly Marathon Gold- Busted for EPO in 2017.

Abraham Kiptum- WR Half Marathon set in 2018 rescinded for ABP abnormalities in 2019.

Rita Jeptoo multiple winner of the Chicago and Boston marathons.

rekrunner wrote:

Jo72 wrote:

One difference is that Mikitenko (not exactly above suspicion with her Soviet background) was a world class track runner in her mid/late 20s (8:30, 14:42) 4th in the 1999, 5th in 2001 Worlds and the 2000 Olympics in the 5k etc.

So this would be more like Rowbury, Simpson, Huddle or Infield running an AR a few years after a high level track career and a baby break.

If there were (m)any halfway obvious analogues to D'Amato's development people would not be as surprised or suspicious.

True -- not many other examples of an athlete who retired for 7 years, saving their body from the wear and tear of competition.

Roberta Groner followed a similar path to D'Amato, I believe. She's just a few years older.

conversion calculator wrote:

row 18 wrote:

Jemima Sumong 2016 Oly Marathon Gold- Busted for EPO in 2017.

Abraham Kiptum- WR Half Marathon set in 2018 rescinded for ABP abnormalities in 2019.

Rita Jeptoo multiple winner of the Chicago and Boston marathons.

Domestically - Kevin Castille. Who also took a significant break from running in his 20s.

How about Wilson Kipsang? 2:03 guy was afraid to give a sample and faked being in a traffic accident.

Mathew (Matthews) Kisorio - 58:46 guy who ran 2:10. Implicated many other Kenyans in ARD doc.

Liliya Shobukhova

llort_vbo wrote:

I’m wondering if rekrunner doesn’t want to believe that there are people doping in her local master’s racing scene?

I believe many masters athletes dope.

The question here is what is it about D'Amato's "rate of progression" and/or American record makes them suspect it is unnatural, and is only made possible with doping? And, alternatively, who has done enough to show that doping can produce a rate of progression, or a peak level of performance, in the marathon that is not possible without doping?

Oh Joo-han (athlete formerly known as Wilson Loyanae Erupe)

2:05 guy who was popped for EPO. He ran 2:13 in a domestic marathon in Kenya and subsequently decided to run majors. Within 2 years, he ran 2:05.

There are tons more examples. You can find them if you do minimal work. Do you remember when Renato Canova tried to say that doping doesn’t work for A-level Kenyans? 2:05 is still smoking fact in the marathon, just like 2:19 is for women.

rekrunner wrote:

llort_vbo wrote:

I’m wondering if rekrunner doesn’t want to believe that there are people doping in her local master’s racing scene?

I believe many masters athletes dope.

The question here is what is it about D'Amato's "rate of progression" and/or American record makes them suspect it is unnatural, and is only made possible with doping? And, alternatively, who has done enough to show that doping can produce a rate of progression, or a peak level of performance, in the marathon that is not possible without doping?

I find your example of a comparable uncompelling and I’d like to point out that the athlete you cite was born in the USSR and coached by someone from the GDR sports machine. Is that really who you want to go with?

Essentially, since Lance, when someone does the unprecedented with incredible obstacles in a compressed time frame, there is doping afoot. There are so many examples freely available to you out there that I think it would be a waste for me to expound.