Ace_of_Base wrote:
de etat wrote:
“Millions”? Huh?
Yes millions, he got a 10 yr deal from Adidas.
It’d be interesting to see the details. I bet it’s <$1 million, but someone please post a link if I’m wrong.
Ace_of_Base wrote:
de etat wrote:
“Millions”? Huh?
Yes millions, he got a 10 yr deal from Adidas.
It’d be interesting to see the details. I bet it’s <$1 million, but someone please post a link if I’m wrong.
college xc boi wrote:
Hey buddy, take a chill pill. All you did was make it sound more like you're a TME guy, so if you're not, I'd relax. You have no idea who is right or wrong, so why do you feel so strongly about this?
It’s LappedMiler, the obnoxious one again.
As Maxwell Smart would have said, "The old chill pill routine!" Yeah, you sound like one of those "America. Love it, or leave it" types. You're definitely one of those deep thinkers who believe that if someone posts anything negative, the writer must really be the person or from team being attacked. I hate to tell you – no I don’t – but there are a lot of people out there who have a point of view that you won't agree with, and it doesn't mean they even live on the same continent as those they might be talking about.
And I'm not blindly supporting TME. Like I said, Einstein, THEY MAY BE THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF PUNK FRAT BOYS THIS SIDE OF ANIMAL HOUSE, for all I know. And Tinman may be the greatest coach since Arthur Lydiard. And he may have been screwed. And he may have deserved it. And I'm not going to blindly believe anything his wife posts, or maybe he posts under his wife's name. We don't effin' know much of anything about what transpired, or why, and I'm not going to believe a one-sided post by the wife of the man who was dumped...or is it Tinman himself?
You wrote, "You have no idea who is right or wrong, so why do you feel so strongly about this?" Yep, as I have written, nobody who is posting here knows. Nobody, including, um, Mrs Schultz. Or even Tinman, who is likely clueless to a bunch of things that went into the equation that led to his firing. So why do I feel so strongly about this? Uh, yeah, on what page of this thread am I posting this? Oh? On page 14? Yeah, like I’m the only one who feels strongly about this issue? Why did you post? How dare you have such a strong opinion that you just had to post!
If you want to believe that I'm a TME frat boy, then go ahead and be small-minded. And, when you next post, don't forget to say how I must be either Drew Hunter, who will never live up to expectations, or I'm a second-tier Tinman runner who is just a spoiled little turd, or I lick their adidas heels because they won me over with their social media presence.
Obnoxiously yours,
LappedMiler
LappedMiler wrote:
college xc boi wrote:
Hey buddy, take a chill pill. All you did was make it sound more like you're a TME guy, so if you're not, I'd relax. You have no idea who is right or wrong, so why do you feel so strongly about this?
It’s LappedMiler, the obnoxious one again.
As Maxwell Smart would have said, "The old chill pill routine!" Yeah, you sound like one of those "America. Love it, or leave it" types. You're definitely one of those deep thinkers who believe that if someone posts anything negative, the writer must really be the person or from team being attacked. I hate to tell you – no I don’t – but there are a lot of people out there who have a point of view that you won't agree with, and it doesn't mean they even live on the same continent as those they might be talking about.
And I'm not blindly supporting TME. Like I said, Einstein, THEY MAY BE THE BIGGEST BUNCH OF PUNK FRAT BOYS THIS SIDE OF ANIMAL HOUSE, for all I know. And Tinman may be the greatest coach since Arthur Lydiard. And he may have been screwed. And he may have deserved it. And I'm not going to blindly believe anything his wife posts, or maybe he posts under his wife's name. We don't effin' know much of anything about what transpired, or why, and I'm not going to believe a one-sided post by the wife of the man who was dumped...or is it Tinman himself?
You wrote, "You have no idea who is right or wrong, so why do you feel so strongly about this?" Yep, as I have written, nobody who is posting here knows. Nobody, including, um, Mrs Schultz. Or even Tinman, who is likely clueless to a bunch of things that went into the equation that led to his firing. So why do I feel so strongly about this? Uh, yeah, on what page of this thread am I posting this? Oh? On page 14? Yeah, like I’m the only one who feels strongly about this issue? Why did you post? How dare you have such a strong opinion that you just had to post!
If you want to believe that I'm a TME frat boy, then go ahead and be small-minded. And, when you next post, don't forget to say how I must be either Drew Hunter, who will never live up to expectations, or I'm a second-tier Tinman runner who is just a spoiled little turd, or I lick their adidas heels because they won me over with their social media presence.
Obnoxiously yours,
LappedMiler
Holy moly you're insufferable. Buy another t shirt or something geez.
Why are you still here making a total fool of yourself? Nothing in Tammy’s post is vitriolic, cowardly, etc. Sure, it’s from her perspective and is bound to be biased, but so what? You could have just acknowledged that instead of throwing a huge fit and being an obnoxious ass. No one who is actually impartial (like you claim to be) would post the accusatory and hyperbolic rant that you did.
I am guessing by the writing style that LappedRunner is Jonny Gusman, Jordan Guzman’s little bro.
te5n1k wrote:
Raymond wrote:
I think Tinman is a very knowledgeable coach, but attracts negativity because of his personality.
which is funny because this thread is all about how he is such a great person, but whenever i hear him talk he comes off as an arrogant prick and seems difficult to talk to. i do believe he cares deeply for his athletes; however, calling him a great guy seems like a stretch and just shows people are clearly sympathetic towards him right now....and i would agree that TME seem to be screwing him over right now and handling the situation overall very poorly.
I followed tinman´s own site "therunzone" for many years and he came off as a complete jerk - borderline Aspberger. He knew better than everybody else in the history of running. If you disagreed with him you were banned from posting anymore. He lectured people on their spelling on the messageboard. He bragged about all his accomplishments as a coach, runner, teacher, father etc.
Steffen wrote:
te5n1k wrote:
which is funny because this thread is all about how he is such a great person, but whenever i hear him talk he comes off as an arrogant prick and seems difficult to talk to. i do believe he cares deeply for his athletes; however, calling him a great guy seems like a stretch and just shows people are clearly sympathetic towards him right now....and i would agree that TME seem to be screwing him over right now and handling the situation overall very poorly.
I followed tinman´s own site "therunzone" for many years and he came off as a complete jerk - borderline Aspberger. He knew better than everybody else in the history of running. If you disagreed with him you were banned from posting anymore. He lectured people on their spelling on the messageboard. He bragged about all his accomplishments as a coach, runner, teacher, father etc.
Uh, didn’t you just say it was his own site?
So he asked ya'll not to break the news & you broke the news?
Also it's so funny how your conservative ideology conflicts with the last half. You wanted Tinman to have job security & a longer contract but then always advocate for free market nonsense in every thread about business/corporations/workers.
I agree with those things, especially for athletes who get dropped left/right even after good results (Droddy, Bayer- two recent examples). I also don't think you need to conflate that with bad instant gratification stereotypes. You listed the good results. There were plenty of bad/mixed results. Personality also matters. The Tinman Track Club stuff should tell you a little something.
rojo wrote:
Heartless wrote:
Adidas is almost halfway through their 10 year investment with nothing to show for it. You better believe they’re involved in this.
As I said on another thread, Tinman is great at somehow finding 12 year olds that are super into endurance training, lunatic parents who think private coaching at that age is appropriate, and getting them to be incredible 15 year olds (by focusing on much higher percentage of regular threshold work than your typical early teen). That’s his true business model. But it typically stops right there. Numerous examples over the last several years of the Tinman teenage plateau. People need to stop acting like they don’t see it.
What's wrong with that. The threshold training is what htey need to do. It's MUCH better htan hard intervals.
Who has more room for improvement?
Option 1)A HS who does 60 mpw with lots of threshold but rarely goes to the well or
Option 2) One who runs 40 mpw but does a ton of races and a ton of hard workouts.
The answer is #1.
Dogma. Let me tell you about #3. He did a lot less than 40 mpw but lots of races. Now he's faster than Drew.
The contract full term is $1M USD paid out over 10 years at $100,000 USD/yr. He has several performance incentives built-in and gets $10k/year in adidas product points for family/friends/himself.
RunnerConnection wrote:
Wow, there are a lot of folks on here speculating this or that about this entire situation with Coach Tinman, Tinman Elite and Drew. Here are the facts because I feel this needs to be shared to stop all the BS comments on this thread. Time to rock-n-roll!
Fact: Coach Tinman did not leave Tinman Elite. He was told over the phone that his services were no longer needed. The team voted by the raise of a hand "yes" or "no". He was told that the team voted unanimously "no we don't want his coaching services". Not every athlete on the team really agreed to this, but they had no choice because it was not an anonymous voting system. The guys that wanted to stay with Coach Tinman had no choice, but to agree, because they would not have the financial backing to continue their running career. Ya, what a shame! Here is the dinger, they never gave Coach Tinman a reason for letting him go. Even Drew never told his Coach. How unprofessional on their part...pretty sad.
Fact: I have a hunch that the Tinman guys didn't like their Head Coach giving them friendly reminders in their team meetings to quit the F- bombing posts and inappropriate gestures on their social media. Any Head Coach for any team wants their team to display a good image to the public...especially a semi-pro team that is popular with today's youth. You certainly don't see other professional running teams doing this. But no Tinman Elite runners think its cool, hip, to flip the bird and use profanity on your social medial posts. As a parent I wouldn't want my kid to follow Tinman Elite just for that one reason.
Fact: Coach Tinman never had a contract with Adidas!
Fact: Coach Tinman has nothing to do with the Hammer & Axe training plans or $$ gained from them. They are cookie cutter plans derived from what they have learned from Tinman. Do you really think these guys have the credentials to Coach your middle school kids or high school kids. Heck no! Tinman has credentials and proven experience with results. PhD in Health & Human Performance/Exercise Science, USATF Level 3 in: Youth Specialization and Endurance Coaching, plus Level 5 IAAF Elite Endurance Certification and former collegiate coaching. None of the Tinman Elite runners have any experience coaching, nor credentials. They are using a dummied down version of Coach Tinman's training just to make $. They were told to not use Coach Tinman's training methods for their personal gains financially.
Fact: Coach Tinman coached most of the Tinman guys for free for one year before being asked to relocate to Colorado and be the Head Coach for Tinman Elite. He was paid a small monthly salary of a couple thousand, compared to what other Head Coaches make, which is $75k to $300K or more. Yes, I agree he should of had a formal contract before making the move from Idaho to Colorado.
Fact: Drew paid his Coach for a very small salary (a beginners teacher salary) and they did have a good relationship, until a certain individual got involved. Jealousy might be the evil doer behind all this.
Fact: Drew has a big heart and helped finance several of the Tinman Elite guys to help this club get started. Coach Tinman gave up a lot financially to help in the cause too. Unselfish acts by both.
Fact: Coach Tinman has not received one penny for all the Tinman merchandise sold. He encouraged the guys to start selling merchandise to help support their needs such as: strength coach fees, massage therapy, nutritionist, chiro fees, traveling, entry, the list is endless. They needed something to help them pay for all the little things that make a difference to get to the next level like the big dawgs in the running world Nike, New Balance, Brooks Beast etc.
Fact: Coach Tinman did not control the Tinman Elite. They controlled him. He had no say in what meets to attend, where to stay, when to arrive , training places, etc. So if Coach Tinman advised them to run in this meet or go here to train...it was planned then oops all of sudden the boys didn't want to attend at the last minute. Coach Tinman would make arrangements to travel for training camps, show up, and then some of the guys would change their plans at a moments notice....not show up.
Fact: Coach Tinman has helped Joan for many years with her training plans. He gave her endless free advise on a moments notice either via email or a phone call to adjust training for her team and individual runners on her high school team. His help aided in her team success when she needed it. Yes there is nothing wrong from learning from others. It helps you become a better coach. Coach Tinman NEVER charged Joan any money for his help.
Fact: Coach Tinman's Elite runners don't always get injured. Have you ever thought that other contributing factors outside of training methods, play into how runners may get injured? Not following coaches training plan, sleep, running in meets not advised, running hard on easy days, not following through with physical therapy or massage therapy, doing other sporting activities that could cause you to get injured, or most importantly lack of proper nutrition. This team paved their own destiny, by doing what they wanted and when they wanted to do this or that.
Fact: Coach Tinman does not go behind High School Coaches to coach athletes on their teams. He asks the athletes parents to talk to the Head Coach first to make sure there will be no conflicts. If there are conflicts he does not Coach the athlete. Many times he ends up talking and working with the Head Coach for the benefit of the entire team. He charges a fair amount just like any other coaching service. He has to pay his bills just like you and support his family!
Fact: A few of you call Coach Tinman a dick based on you listening to his podcasts or watching his video's. The man has a PhD, he is full of knowledge and when he gets on a roll, yes he likes to share and educate just like Vigil. How on earth can you judge a person without even meeting them? Coach Tinman gets endless emails and telephone calls from coaches, parents, and runners from all over the world and responds to them. I would not exactly call him a dick for doing this. Don't judge anyone until you have met them in person or talked to them.
I'm furious and completely disappointed in the Tinman Elite team and what you have done not only to Coach "Tinman" Schwartz, but to my entire family. You took advantage of him, you used him and abused him. You took his name "Tinman" which was well known before you even existed and profit $$$. Heck, you didn't even give our family a small % of what you profit off his name, which is unethical. I myself wanted to share this information because the truth needs to be told. I'm tired of people bashing and speculating this and that. I guess we as a family learned a valuable lesson, that is to never trust a bunch of 20 year old's and relocate without a solid contract backed by a lawyer. We will move on with our lives, as you will too. I just ask that you NEVER do this to another Coach...the way you did this to my husband and my family. It was wrong, unprofessional, immature and completely petty. You still have not given my husband ONE reason as to why you let him go. It certainly has nothing to do with your performances. The majority of you guys have run PR's under my husbands guidance.
Lastly, Drew I sure wished you would of stuck to your promise of continuing to work with Coach Tinman. My husband believed in you and we moved to Colorado to support you! You distanced yourself from him, blamed him for your performance when you did not do the little things needed to take care of yourself, you certainly didn't listen to his advise, and trained differently then what he prescribed for you. You were also influenced by your buddy, the media and your Mom. My advise: Have a growth mindset, make your own decisions, act like a professional runner, and focus on YOUR FUTURE, not the Tinman Elite Team. Control your own destiny or someone else will!
Best,
Tammy Schwartz
Sounds to me like you and Tom are better off out of it.
I remember reading about Schwartz giving rest intervals like 1:03, extremely detailed based on his mathematical formulas. That type of precise mindset, in combination with a CONTROLLING personality, is very hard for many to deal with on a day to day basis. Having read the huge compilation that a LetsRun reader put together with John Kellogg's musings, I'm guessing JK and Tinman share similar personality traits. What worked on high school kids, and some on college kids, may become more difficult with young adults, especially guys. You would think that highly motivated young adults could continue to thrive under those circumstances for only 2-3 hours max. a day, but for many you better be running fast if you're willing to give up part of the Ownership of the process to a micro-manager coach.
Steffen wrote:
te5n1k wrote:
which is funny because this thread is all about how he is such a great person, but whenever i hear him talk he comes off as an arrogant prick and seems difficult to talk to. i do believe he cares deeply for his athletes; however, calling him a great guy seems like a stretch and just shows people are clearly sympathetic towards him right now....and i would agree that TME seem to be screwing him over right now and handling the situation overall very poorly.
I followed tinman´s own site "therunzone" for many years and he came off as a complete jerk - borderline Aspberger. He knew better than everybody else in the history of running. If you disagreed with him you were banned from posting anymore. He lectured people on their spelling on the messageboard. He bragged about all his accomplishments as a coach, runner, teacher, father etc.
+ 1
Give Shwartz the name back. The whole thing is a shame. Fee sympathy for Tom, and puzzled why he didn’t protect himself. Incredulous that one kid in the group didn’t have the character to do the right thing and Leave the right way. Chatted with my friend a well respected coach and his words sum
It up well.
“There’s so much I have to say about this situation but largely it speaks to the lack of professionalism in running, that the coach of a group isn’t protected by contract, that the inmates can essentially run the asylum, and that an adult man’s mom is making statements on his/his team’s behalf.”
Dr. Pepper wrote:
I remember reading about Schwartz giving rest intervals like 1:03, extremely detailed based on his mathematical formulas. That type of precise mindset, in combination with a CONTROLLING personality, is very hard for many to deal with on a day to day basis. Having read the huge compilation that a LetsRun reader put together with John Kellogg's musings, I'm guessing JK and Tinman share similar personality traits. What worked on high school kids, and some on college kids, may become more difficult with young adults, especially guys. You would think that highly motivated young adults could continue to thrive under those circumstances for only 2-3 hours max. a day, but for many you better be running fast if you're willing to give up part of the Ownership of the process to a micro-manager coach.
yes. ive read that he asks for reps to be run to the tenth of a second as well. not sure if true. and certainly not even possible to execute. but even asking for that, even if you are not demanding it shows some obsessive compulsive traits that would be tough to deal with for many.
Such control over workouts that aren’t even good. Give me Ray Treacy any day over this craziness
Who was a bigger control freak than AlSal, but he coached some runners to their bests without a doubt, notwithstanding his abusiveness of some runners. Hard to say that Mo wins 4 Olympic golds without him.
I’m assuming Corey Leslie had something to do with it too. Dudes a snake.
Astride Lapped Miler's ex wrote:
LappedMiler wrote:
Yep, it may be true, and then again, IT MAY BE LIKE MOST DIVORCE CASES EVER.
OK, I was wondering exactly why you're so pissed off, and here's the reveal.
So did the b*tch clean you out or what?
That house in Boulder someone said was bought for $900+ is now valued at close to $1.2 million and climbing fast. Even if Hunter is done running in 2 years, he can hang out and rent the place out to the same kind of sorta-fast guys with zero Olympic hopes who occupy the roster now, and join a long line of ex elites doing the same thing
People forget that Boulder has always had a HUUUUGE turnover of 13:45, 29:00 guys. Seems like now more of them have parents paying their entire way rather than waiting tables or whatever like 20 years ago, but in the end it doesn't matter who's financing....some people thrive and do the work, others quickly latch on to the brewery scene, gain 10 pounds, drop the morning runs/doubles and eventually blame whoever is coaching 'em for their own lack of necessary focus.
Drew Hunter isn't done because of his form, it's cause he doesn't want to train enough or make the right adjustments so he can stop getting hurt when increasing his volume. Anyone can see this, it's fact not opinion!
fair point. people just assume that every pro is 100% committed to the lifestyle it takes to be great and this can lead to coaches or other extraneous factors to be blamed when really it all comes down to the athlete. It is sounding more and more like the TME guys ran the show over there and any blame coach Schwartz got over the years for their lack of success would be unfair. As others have mentioned some of the guys clearly improved since joining the team, but since Hunter is its prized possession if he is struggling then they have to consider another coach? in reality it could be because he (and some other members) have gotten comfortable living off contract money, free housing and pushing merch on middle schoolers. In the world of entertainment their reach is pathetic, but you can see how even that paltry amount of fame has gone to their heads. Feel for the guys on the team that didnt agree with this, but were clearly overruled by Drew and Sam. I dont see how the team will continue on in its current form and it will be a reality check for a lot of them.
rojo wrote:
Former DIII wrote:
FACT: NONE of the Tinman elite wanted their dirty laundry aired on letsrun.com. It is outrageous that you think it is appropriate to smear DH and the rest of TME (regardless of if they have fault or not) because of some mindless speculation by anonymous message board posters.
How are they being smeared? A group called the Tinman elite fired their coach Tinman. Some people think tha'ts a good move, some people don't and others think it's a good move but feel personally for Schwartz. People then started talking about it. Tom's wife has now poster her version of the story.
I don't get why everyone thinks everything has to be one side or the other. I said a) I think tom is a good coach b) I totally get why Drew might want a new coach. c) Give him his name back.
For some reason in 2021, any criticism is viewed as a smear job. Grow up. No one is perfect.
All relationships eventually end whether through death, divorce, breakup etc.
As for not wanting it to get out ther, that's true. Neither party wanted that. When we heard Tinman was no longer coaching the group, Jonathan called Tom and said he was no longer coach ing but the guys wanted it not talked about until after the Trials and Tom wanted it kept quiet as he was worried it would impact his job search. We tried to honor that request. So we deleted a few threads but I soon realized there was no way this was sustainable. Threads were popping up about it and it was on instragram. It's not right for me to delete factual threads. This news was out there. Someone needed to be the adult in the room and adcknowledge it. Knowing that the relationship was shattered from talking to Jonathan, I tried to help all of them out by reaching out to them and have them take the high road with gracious statements.
I had never spoken to Tom in my life before but called him up, told him what I knew and told him I thought he should issue a statement. That's what he did. I then asked Drew and Joan for a response.
Why people wouldn't expect the public to react to a team that has a huge social media presence dropping their namesake coach is beyond me. If I was Tom or Drew, I 'd just ignore what's written on here.
Now I have since defended Tom's coaching on here as it's clear from talking to him for 30 minutes that he gets running. I don't l ike people bashing one side. I also said it was totally understandably that Drew would leave. Let's stop making this a soap opera.
Tammy came on here and smeared DH and the rest of TME because she was upset about speculation on an anonymous message board.