Armstronglivs wrote:
Over 4300 die of Covid in a single day and nearly 400,000 so far. Meanwhile this witless thread driven by the Covid deniers and Trumpers continues.
Hope they address these very important issues soon!
Armstronglivs wrote:
Over 4300 die of Covid in a single day and nearly 400,000 so far. Meanwhile this witless thread driven by the Covid deniers and Trumpers continues.
Hope they address these very important issues soon!
jamese wrote:
Further research would have shown you that Dr. Fauci responded to that quote and context. He brought it into full *context* and explained his position in its full current meaning.
I made the mistake of believing this post. I actually went back, thinking that people had posted further information that cast Fauci's statements in a different light. That was, unfortunately, a huge waste of time. Rojo was right. Fauci lied. Granted, we do not have an exact quote. We have a journalist paraphrasing his statements. But if the paraphrase is accurate, he unquestionably lied. If he had been under oath, it would be slam dunk perjury.
Denying this is delusional. I suppose when a significant portion of the country thinks that the election was stolen or that the pandemic is a hoax, I should no longer be surprised at some people's capacity to live in an alternate universe with alternate fact.
800 dude wrote:
jamese wrote:
Further research would have shown you that Dr. Fauci responded to that quote and context. He brought it into full *context* and explained his position in its full current meaning.
I made the mistake of believing this post. I actually went back, thinking that people had posted further information that cast Fauci's statements in a different light. That was, unfortunately, a huge waste of time. Rojo was right. Fauci lied. Granted, we do not have an exact quote. We have a journalist paraphrasing his statements. But if the paraphrase is accurate, he unquestionably lied. If he had been under oath, it would be slam dunk perjury.
Denying this is delusional. I suppose when a significant portion of the country thinks that the election was stolen or that the pandemic is a hoax, I should no longer be surprised at some people's capacity to live in an alternate universe with alternate fact.
Wrong
rojo wrote:
in my opinion wrote:
It also doesn’t change the fact that Rojo and his ilk don’t give a sh!t when Trump lies or misleads the American public about this pandemic.
Rank hypocrisy.
I don't constantly point out Trump's lies as only an idiot if you don't realize Trump lies all the time. Fauci though is presented for some reason to us as some scientific genius and yet he seems to either lie or be totally wrong quite often.
+1
This whataboutism might be defensible if Rojo stuck up for Trump. But he's made his position clear.
Your position seems to be that because Trump is so bad, nobody is allowed to criticize anyone besides him. Or maybe it's that nobody right of center is allowed to criticize anyone besides him. Either position is absurd.
For the record, Trump is an egomaniac, an idiot, possibly unwell, unprincipled, a liar, and he has a limited grip on reality. He has no redeeming qualities. If you wrote a character like him in fiction, people would say he's unrealistic--a monster, not a person. But, as it turns out, there are real monsters in life, and unfortunately one of them has been in the Oval Office for the last four years. I worked against him in 2016 and 2020. I donated thousands of dollars to his opponents. I loathe him. And I'm sick of my left of center friends asking me, on an almost daily basis, what I think of Trump's latest outrage. It's as though they're testing my commitment to him, when I've always made clear that all of my commitments are against him.
800 dude wrote:
rojo wrote:
I don't constantly point out Trump's lies as only an idiot if you don't realize Trump lies all the time. Fauci though is presented for some reason to us as some scientific genius and yet he seems to either lie or be totally wrong quite often.
+1
This whataboutism might be defensible if Rojo stuck up for Trump. But he's made his position clear.
Your position seems to be that because Trump is so bad, nobody is allowed to criticize anyone besides him. Or maybe it's that nobody right of center is allowed to criticize anyone besides him. Either position is absurd.
For the record, Trump is an egomaniac, an idiot, possibly unwell, unprincipled, a liar, and he has a limited grip on reality. He has no redeeming qualities. If you wrote a character like him in fiction, people would say he's unrealistic--a monster, not a person. But, as it turns out, there are real monsters in life, and unfortunately one of them has been in the Oval Office for the last four years. I worked against him in 2016 and 2020. I donated thousands of dollars to his opponents. I loathe him. And I'm sick of my left of center friends asking me, on an almost daily basis, what I think of Trump's latest outrage. It's as though they're testing my commitment to him, when I've always made clear that all of my commitments are against him.
Ah yes the “Trump is bad but what about the liberals?” argument.
Yawn
Sarah Williamson. wrote:
800 dude wrote:
+1
This whataboutism might be defensible if Rojo stuck up for Trump. But he's made his position clear.
Your position seems to be that because Trump is so bad, nobody is allowed to criticize anyone besides him. Or maybe it's that nobody right of center is allowed to criticize anyone besides him. Either position is absurd.
For the record, Trump is an egomaniac, an idiot, possibly unwell, unprincipled, a liar, and he has a limited grip on reality. He has no redeeming qualities. If you wrote a character like him in fiction, people would say he's unrealistic--a monster, not a person. But, as it turns out, there are real monsters in life, and unfortunately one of them has been in the Oval Office for the last four years. I worked against him in 2016 and 2020. I donated thousands of dollars to his opponents. I loathe him. And I'm sick of my left of center friends asking me, on an almost daily basis, what I think of Trump's latest outrage. It's as though they're testing my commitment to him, when I've always made clear that all of my commitments are against him.
Ah yes the “Trump is bad but what about the liberals?” argument.
Yawn
“We already know Trump is bad so time to move on to the liberals”
Or
“Yeah Trump and the capitol is bad or whatever but that’s nothing compared to the slaughter of millions of unborn children or the stripping away of religious freedom. THAT must be stopped at all costs, and if it takes someone like Trump to do it, then that’s what it takes!”
Yawn
Sarah Williamson. wrote:
Ah yes the “Trump is bad but what about the liberals?” argument.
Yawn
Sarah Williamson. wrote:
“We already know Trump is bad so time to move on to the liberals”
I can't tell if you're trolling. Nobody on this thread is saying "Trump is bad but what about the liberals."
It's other people who are responding to an attack on Fauci by saying, "but what about Trump?"
And nobody--not Rojo, not me--is defending Trump. So there's no discussion or debate to have there.
Your position seems to be we can't debate anyone else's conduct as long as someone worse is out there, even when we agree he's worse. That's idiotic.
Sarah Williamson. wrote:
“Yeah Trump and the capitol is bad or whatever but that’s nothing compared to the slaughter of millions of unborn children or the stripping away of religious freedom. THAT must be stopped at all costs, and if it takes someone like Trump to do it, then that’s what it takes!”
As for this statement, it has no basis in anything I or Rojo wrote. I'm not sure if you're illiterate or if you just think that you can tell what's secretly motivating everyone who doesn't share your views.
You can have the last word. I'm sure you'll say something brilliant.
Fauci is a scientist who was thrust into the position of being the CDC spokesperson on COVID 19 because Trump's CDC head, Robert Redfield, proved to be completely incompetent as both an administrator and a communicator. Redfield got the job because he is a bible thumper and opposed contraception and family planning responses to the AIDS crisis. Same with Dr. Birx. That is how they got to the top. But every time either of them went on camera, it was a complete disaster. They were completely out of their league. Fauci ended up being the one guy at the CDC who could actually speak intelligently about the pandemic and became the face of the US government's pandemic response. But at the same time behind the scenes, Trump administration official were constantly sticking their fingers into everything Fauci and the scientists were doing. So, Fauci was put into the position of having to be both scientist and politician. He has known from the beginning that if he came out swinging, Trump would fire him and others would probably follow him out the door. So, he has constantly been having to balance what he says with the political reality of serving under a wretchedly incompetent administration.
Under a competent Republican or Democratic administration, Fauci would have been able to be 100% transparent. But under Trump, that would result in him at best getting completely sideline and at worst getting fired. So, if you do not like how Fauci has tried to manage that completely impossible situation, f#ck off. It is not how he wanted to do it. It is how he has had to do it while working in a fascist white supremacist administration.
And it is funny how Fauci is held to a standard that is beyond perfection with every move and word parsed and presumed to have evil intent while the COVID deniers out their just get a free pass for being 100% wrong. Ivor Cummins told everyone who would listen that there was no second wave in Europe this fall. Oops. John Ioannidis said IFR for COVID was nothing to worry about and 10,000 max dead in the US. Oops. But let's give them all a free pass and go after that Fauci guy for having to be nuanced in his public statements to try to keep the idiots from the Trump Administration from burning down what little was left of the CDC. Oh, yea guardians of truth and justice. How did we get anywhere in this pandemic without your keen insights. Oh, that is right. 400k people are dead with no sign of the current surge letting up and a complete circus of a vaccination program is flailing away with no attention from the Trump administration. Doin' a heckuva job Brownie.
800 dude wrote:
Sarah Williamson. wrote:
Ah yes the “Trump is bad but what about the liberals?” argument.
Yawn
Sarah Williamson. wrote:
“We already know Trump is bad so time to move on to the liberals”
I can't tell if you're trolling. Nobody on this thread is saying "Trump is bad but what about the liberals."
It's other people who are responding to an attack on Fauci by saying, "but what about Trump?"
And nobody--not Rojo, not me--is defending Trump. So there's no discussion or debate to have there.
Your position seems to be we can't debate anyone else's conduct as long as someone worse is out there, even when we agree he's worse. That's idiotic.
Sarah Williamson. wrote:
“Yeah Trump and the capitol is bad or whatever but that’s nothing compared to the slaughter of millions of unborn children or the stripping away of religious freedom. THAT must be stopped at all costs, and if it takes someone like Trump to do it, then that’s what it takes!”
As for this statement, it has no basis in anything I or Rojo wrote. I'm not sure if you're illiterate or if you just think that you can tell what's secretly motivating everyone who doesn't share your views.
You can have the last word. I'm sure you'll say something brilliant.
“Yeah yeah Trump is bad but what about the liberals”
Precious Roy wrote:
Fauci is a scientist who was thrust into the position of being the CDC spokesperson on COVID 19 because Trump's CDC head, Robert Redfield, proved to be completely incompetent as both an administrator and a communicator. Redfield got the job because he is a bible thumper and opposed contraception and family planning responses to the AIDS crisis. Same with Dr. Birx. That is how they got to the top. But every time either of them went on camera, it was a complete disaster. They were completely out of their league. Fauci ended up being the one guy at the CDC who could actually speak intelligently about the pandemic and became the face of the US government's pandemic response. But at the same time behind the scenes, Trump administration official were constantly sticking their fingers into everything Fauci and the scientists were doing. So, Fauci was put into the position of having to be both scientist and politician. He has known from the beginning that if he came out swinging, Trump would fire him and others would probably follow him out the door. So, he has constantly been having to balance what he says with the political reality of serving under a wretchedly incompetent administration.
Under a competent Republican or Democratic administration, Fauci would have been able to be 100% transparent. But under Trump, that would result in him at best getting completely sideline and at worst getting fired. So, if you do not like how Fauci has tried to manage that completely impossible situation, f#ck off. It is not how he wanted to do it. It is how he has had to do it while working in a fascist white supremacist administration.
And it is funny how Fauci is held to a standard that is beyond perfection with every move and word parsed and presumed to have evil intent while the COVID deniers out their just get a free pass for being 100% wrong. Ivor Cummins told everyone who would listen that there was no second wave in Europe this fall. Oops. John Ioannidis said IFR for COVID was nothing to worry about and 10,000 max dead in the US. Oops. But let's give them all a free pass and go after that Fauci guy for having to be nuanced in his public statements to try to keep the idiots from the Trump Administration from burning down what little was left of the CDC. Oh, yea guardians of truth and justice. How did we get anywhere in this pandemic without your keen insights. Oh, that is right. 400k people are dead with no sign of the current surge letting up and a complete circus of a vaccination program is flailing away with no attention from the Trump administration. Doin' a heckuva job Brownie.
TRUTH!
There is a generous interpretation of the specific statements Fauci has made. That is, he discounted the public wearing masks to mitigate a shortage of medical grade masks for medical personnel and is taking a high end estimate of herd immunity to encourage people to get vaccinated. In this interpretation it could be said that he told white lies for a greater good.
There is an adversarial interpretation which is, at the extreme, that he purposely mislead us and can't be trusted.
It is common for persons to take the adversarial interpretation so as to dismiss expert guidance they were not inclined to follow anyway. It's simply selfish rationalization.
Rojo apparently is aware of this enough to preemptively claim that he has been "cautious as hell". He then points to his brother in law's behavior, leaving his own definition of cautious unclear, which is kind empty. He then re-litigates something Fauci said about masks 8 months ago to reinforce an argument that a change in an upward shift in Fauci's estimate of herd immunity is not just significant, but "arrogance" and "a lie".
It just seems a strange thing to get worked up about unless one is inclined to incite the usual suspects who immediately jumped on the thread with their predictable responses.
Monkeys typing wrote:
There is a generous interpretation of the specific statements Fauci has made. That is, he discounted the public wearing masks to mitigate a shortage of medical grade masks for medical personnel and is taking a high end estimate of herd immunity to encourage people to get vaccinated. In this interpretation it could be said that he told white lies for a greater good.
There is an adversarial interpretation which is, at the extreme, that he purposely mislead us and can't be trusted.
It is common for persons to take the adversarial interpretation so as to dismiss expert guidance they were not inclined to follow anyway. It's simply selfish rationalization.
Rojo apparently is aware of this enough to preemptively claim that he has been "cautious as hell". He then points to his brother in law's behavior, leaving his own definition of cautious unclear, which is kind empty. He then re-litigates something Fauci said about masks 8 months ago to reinforce an argument that a change in an upward shift in Fauci's estimate of herd immunity is not just significant, but "arrogance" and "a lie".
It just seems a strange thing to get worked up about unless one is inclined to incite the usual suspects who immediately jumped on the thread with their predictable responses.
BINGO
It's funny we are splitting hairs discussing Fauci's statements when they likely have minimal effect on peoples COVID perceptions.
There are COVID deniers all over the internet and mainstream media spouting lies/ignorance left and right that do far, far more to damage trust in the system then some inconsistencies in Fauci's messaging.
Yes, we should hold our public officials to a high standard, but how can we justify this much hand-wringing about messaging given the state of our own message board? Look at all the multipage denial threads!
If people were truly concerned about getting the appropriate message out re: COVID (and not just bashing a scientist libs like), where is all the consternation about the misinformation on LRC?
Harambe wrote:
It's funny we are splitting hairs discussing Fauci's statements when they likely have minimal effect on peoples COVID perceptions.
There are COVID deniers all over the internet and mainstream media spouting lies/ignorance left and right that do far, far more to damage trust in the system then some inconsistencies in Fauci's messaging.
Yes, we should hold our public officials to a high standard, but how can we justify this much hand-wringing about messaging given the state of our own message board? Look at all the multipage denial threads!
If people were truly concerned about getting the appropriate message out re: COVID (and not just bashing a scientist libs like), where is all the consternation about the misinformation on LRC?
GREAT question. LRC, response?
Monkeys typing wrote:
There is a generous interpretation of the specific statements Fauci has made. That is, he discounted the public wearing masks to mitigate a shortage of medical grade masks for medical personnel and is taking a high end estimate of herd immunity to encourage people to get vaccinated. In this interpretation it could be said that he told white lies for a greater good.
There is an adversarial interpretation which is, at the extreme, that he purposely mislead us and can't be trusted.
It is common for persons to take the adversarial interpretation so as to dismiss expert guidance they were not inclined to follow anyway. It's simply selfish rationalization.
Rojo apparently is aware of this enough to preemptively claim that he has been "cautious as hell". He then points to his brother in law's behavior, leaving his own definition of cautious unclear, which is kind empty. He then re-litigates something Fauci said about masks 8 months ago to reinforce an argument that a change in an upward shift in Fauci's estimate of herd immunity is not just significant, but "arrogance" and "a lie".
It just seems a strange thing to get worked up about unless one is inclined to incite the usual suspects who immediately jumped on the thread with their predictable responses.
Additionally, Faucci clearly said the early recommendations regarding the wearing or not wearing of face masks did not take into account the chance of asymptomatic carriers of the virus. FFS, it was early on and we didn't know everything, and once he did, the recommendation changed. It is not so hard to fathom. Or some can just get themselves (and others) all up in a huff becuase they don't understand.
You do know that most 94% of those so called Covid deaths may very well have been caused by other health issues?
Don't know why you guys keep posting these "facts" while ignoring that.
The Unkle wrote:
You do know that most 94% of those so called Covid deaths may very well have been caused by other health issues?
Don't know why you guys keep posting these "facts" while ignoring that.
5G is being installed in your area, go protest that.
Too late
Harambe wrote:
The Unkle wrote:
You do know that most 94% of those so called Covid deaths may very well have been caused by other health issues?
Don't know why you guys keep posting these "facts" while ignoring that.
5G is being installed in your area, go protest that.
seattle prattle wrote:
Monkeys typing wrote:
There is a generous interpretation of the specific statements Fauci has made. That is, he discounted the public wearing masks to mitigate a shortage of medical grade masks for medical personnel and is taking a high end estimate of herd immunity to encourage people to get vaccinated. In this interpretation it could be said that he told white lies for a greater good.
There is an adversarial interpretation which is, at the extreme, that he purposely mislead us and can't be trusted.
It is common for persons to take the adversarial interpretation so as to dismiss expert guidance they were not inclined to follow anyway. It's simply selfish rationalization.
Rojo apparently is aware of this enough to preemptively claim that he has been "cautious as hell". He then points to his brother in law's behavior, leaving his own definition of cautious unclear, which is kind empty. He then re-litigates something Fauci said about masks 8 months ago to reinforce an argument that a change in an upward shift in Fauci's estimate of herd immunity is not just significant, but "arrogance" and "a lie".
It just seems a strange thing to get worked up about unless one is inclined to incite the usual suspects who immediately jumped on the thread with their predictable responses.
Additionally, Faucci clearly said the early recommendations regarding the wearing or not wearing of face masks did not take into account the chance of asymptomatic carriers of the virus. FFS, it was early on and we didn't know everything, and once he did, the recommendation changed. It is not so hard to fathom. Or some can just get themselves (and others) all up in a huff becuase they don't understand.
Brilliant
The Unkle wrote:
You do know that most 94% of those so called Covid deaths may very well have been caused by other health issues?
Don't know why you guys keep posting these "facts" while ignoring that.
Ah, no, I didn't. Maybe you could post a link to a credible source that corroborates your claim.
And while you're at it, maybe you post that link to where Faucci said he "lied", as you claimed but have not been able to corroborate either,
Thanks, Unk!