World Champion Emma Coburn Expresses Doubt that Beatrice Chepkoech's World Record in Steeple is Clean

So has BC hit her limit or is she going to carve another huge chunk of her own record next year? At the rate she is improving it wouldn't be out of the question. And if she did that, would Letsrunners continue to maintain there's no reason to think she might be doped?

Livstrong7 wrote:

Oh, right. She's a "steeplechaser" now, not a real "hurdler". So she pretty much just jumps over the barriers like everyone else. Let's just change the terms to suit the facile argument then. But irrelevant to the key question of whether she is doping or not.

"Oh, right. She's a "steeplechaser" now, not a real "hurdler". "

Correct, she's a steeplechaser who hurdles the steeples, you may have noticed some of them don't, if she were a real hurdler she'd be running either the 100m or 400m hurdles events.

"But irrelevant to the key question of whether she is doping or not."

Not irrelevant at all, when someone is accused of doping some people will put up an argument as to why they may not be. In this case some of the highly informed and educated readers of LR have put up a counter argument that it's because she can run a fast flat 3k and has superior hurdling technique. Also, as Chepkoech says herself, the previous two seasons she was gaining experience in the event.

The key question as to whether she's doping or not can only be proven by a positive A and B doping control sample, i.e. not by veiled accusations by Emma Coburn or anyone else.

So has BC hit her limit or is she going to carve another huge chunk of her own record next year

There's no reason to think that conditions as superlative as Monaco 2018 will exist next year.

Livstrong7 wrote:

So has BC hit her limit or is she going to carve another huge chunk of her own record next year? At the rate she is improving it wouldn't be out of the question. And if she did that, would Letsrunners continue to maintain there's no reason to think she might be doped?

I would say she hasn't hit her limit, but won't carve another huge chunk off next year, low single digit seconds maybe. The highly educated and informed readers of LR realise that the faster you go the harder it is to carve huge chunks off, so wouldn't even ask that question. And yes, some, but not all Letsrunners, will continue to maintain there's no reason to think she might be doped, that's just the way of the world sunshine.

I think this is funny, moonshine, because as a highly educated dude - as you say you and your doping apologist buddies are - I wonder what kind of performance it would take from BC for you to stop and say - "wait a minute..," Clearly you have no problems with a 27 year old athlete spiking a 15 sec improvement to 8.44. So, 8.40? 8.35? 8.30? Nah - all clean! And in one of the dirtiest sports dominated currently by one of the dirtiest countries.

Livstrong7 wrote:

Clearly you have no problems with a 27 year old athlete spiking a 15 sec improvement to 8.44. So, 8.40? 8.35? 8.30? Nah - all clean! And in one of the dirtiest sports dominated currently by one of the dirtiest countries.

Why do think BC is really 27?

Livstrong7 wrote:

I think this is funny, moonshine, because as a highly educated dude - as you say you and your doping apologist buddies are - I wonder what kind of performance it would take from BC for you to stop and say - "wait a minute..," Clearly you have no problems with a 27 year old athlete spiking a 15 sec improvement to 8.44. So, 8.40? 8.35? 8.30? Nah - all clean! And in one of the dirtiest sports dominated currently by one of the dirtiest countries.

You're not getting it are you sunshine, no one knows if she is or isn't doping, no one's saying "Nah - all clean!".

[quote]Livstrong7 wrote:

So has BC hit her limit or is she going to carve another huge chunk of her own record next year?[quote]

I personally hope she keeps smashing the record.

I'd like to see Frerichs break 9 minutes soon too, and continue to be the fastest American.

Livstrong7 wrote:

Who let you out of the mental derangement facility?

People keep saying 'she's 27 she shouldn't be improving at this rate'. She literally ran her first steeple in 2016, so I don't find it hard to believe she's still getting better at a decent rate.

Performance looks so good because all her competitors are so bad.

Coburn has unfortunately been hit with a taste of reality.

3k steeple is a poor (wo)mans' 5k.

The Kenyans that do it generally have poor technique and are not good enough to get in the Kenyan 5k teams but still dominate the rest of the world. They are B grade Kenyans.

None of those girls could hold a flame to Obiri, Muir, Hassan, Dibaba, Ayana etc.

The aforementioned would destroy Coburn in a steeplechase over any distance. 9 minutes is a nice round number but it's meaningless and extremely slow compared to the flat 3k.

Dibaba has run 8:16 for 3k. How would those tiny barriers slow her down by 44 seconds. It's preposterous.

Oh ... someone with talent, like Jenny Simpson?? Oh, that's right, she held the AR for W Steeple before Emma. I think she has some talent. Personally, I agree that the new Women's Steeple WR is suspicious but if I were Emma's agent (or close friend) I would advise her against speaking out in such a public forum. Nothing to be gained beyond self righteousness.

Moran.

Chep wrote:

Performance looks so good because all her competitors are so bad.

Yep, if I've seen further than others, it's because I'm surrounded by midgets.

The difference between a Steeple 3K vs. Flat 3K varies but is generally about 6-7%. So, the 8:44 steeple time equates to approximately 8:09 for a flat steeple. That is faster than the current WR of 8:13 ( a time I also find suspicious since even 8:25 is considered outstanding for women). All extreme outliers should be viewed as suspicious - unfortunately ...

Wrong .

The men's SC WR is about 7.5% slower than the flat time. If you increase the women's 3k flat time by 7.5% you get 8.49, which considering the women's barriers are significantly lower in relation to the average high of the competitors - makes her time just about par for the course.

The men's 3000SC World Record is pretty much exactly the same pace as the men's 10,000 World Record.

The women's is different by under 0.1s per lap i.e. almost identical as well.

The math works out - this is a legit WR and the rest of the girls need to catch up.

I think the whole debate would become academic if they would just get rid of this niche event in the first place. Or move it into a parkour category.

Pythagoras wrote:

The men's 3000SC World Record is pretty much exactly the same pace as the men's 10,000 World Record.

The women's is different by under 0.1s per lap i.e. almost identical as well.

The math works out - this is a legit WR and the rest of the girls need to catch up.

Interesting. Nice calculation.