Training Log for a 2:30ish Boston Marathon 2018

How many spots away from me was he?

I definitely had a good day - the weather was perfect and the field was deep enough that I never ran alone at any point other than when I gapped the guy who finished just behind me coming down off of the bridge - and that wasn't much of gap (he had me by a step cresting the bridge and I ended up beating him by :03). Ended up negative splitting each 5k including the last 5k which has that monster bridge (16:40, 16:20, 16:17). Hoping that bodes well for Boston.

Tell him to reach out to me if he wants - its always good to have someone to run with, and based on that showing, I think 2:30 could turn out to be a legitimate goal if the weather cooperates.

reed wrote:

Question: what experience do you guys have with dropping a few pounds before big goal races? I feel like I'm 3-4 lbs too heavy and I've heard that 2 lbs makes you 1min slower in a marathon.

My plan is to cut out soda (I usually drink probably 8-10 12oz sodas per week, 150 cal each) while also having more vegetables at dinner with less focus on carbs from pasta. I don't think I want to count calories but might do it one day per week to check it.

I don't want to cut back on too many things as I need to keep it up for the next 5 weeks and I need to still eat enough to fuel my running.

Not to state the obvious, but cut the soda ASAP - replace with water and some coffee. There is no need to count calories. Simply eat REAL food. Fruits, veggies, whole grains and oats, whole milk dairy, organic meats and wild caught fish, honey, maple syrup, etc - and eat as much as you want. Nothing processed, no added sugar. It's not hard. Your body will dial in to it's correct weight.

Ive been busy and just started catching up on this thread. I guess this is to be expected as a fellow Daniels follower, but I completely agree with Smoove on most of the debates on this thread. A friend who I coach told me that Smoove is reading my mind.

This cycle has been different than previous ones. Previously I saw steady improvement throughout the 18 weeks leading up to a race, but also had a lot of inconsistency between workouts. This time I was very consistently hitting workouts at a 2:41-2:43 level for a few weeks with very little improvement. Then it all came together and Ive been relatively consistently hitting 2:33-2:35 type workouts. I'm racing New York in the fall, so if we get decent weather at Boston I'll be chasing the sub-elite mark for NYCM of 2:35.

Since my last post with a weekly summary and quality workouts:

Week ending 1/21 - 58 miles total, recovering from the 5 hour mountain run the week before, caught up with work and then a bout of food poisoning.

Skipped mid week workout.

22 with 8m, 1t, 5m, 1t, 1m. 6:38s for m and 6:21s for t, 500 ft of climbing in tempo portion

Week ending 1/28 - 83 miles total

16 miles easy tuesday

3 x 3 mile at T on the track (3 min rest, 6:00s, 6:04s, 6:14s and stopped at 2 miles)

21 miles with two 5 mile tempos up a 1400 ft climb, averaged about 7:50 pace

Week ending 2/4 - 90 miles total

16 miles easy tuesday

5 x 1 mile at I on the track (4 min rest, 5:26s consistently)

24 easy, very icy, 1000 ft of climbing, 7:46 pace

Week ending 2/11 - 83 miles total

18 easy tuesday

17 with 12 @M at sea level (travelling for work, 6:11 average)

20 with 6m, 1t, 6m back at altitude (6:11s, 5:42 for T) This is where the breakthrough happened

Week ending 2/18 - 82 miles total

17 easy tuesday

on the track, 4@t (557, 553, 547, 548) 4' rest, 3@t (549, 549, 551) 3' rest, 2@t (546, 547), 2' rest, 1@t (540)

Sunday half marathon that went really bad, didnt taper much, had deep massage the night before and was sore, crazy wind and 550 ft of climbing, 1:23:30.

Week ending 2/25 - 55 miles total, took two days off to recover a bit from the crappy half and get my legs under me rather than run in 10 degrees snow and ice.

3 x mile 4 minute rest, 3 x 1k 2 min rest on treadmill (0% grade), 513, 511, 508, 310, 309, 308

23 easy, 1300 ft of climbing, pavement, 7:14 pace

Week ending 3/4 - 97 miles

17 easy tuesday

18 with 13@m down lefthand canyon, starting at 8100 ft and ending at 5600 ft, 5:42 average (downhill allowed for faster than sea level pace)

22 with 8m, 1t, 5m, 1t, 1m. Bailed after 12 of tempo, quads not recovered from thursdays workout. A bit disappointed as this has usually been a good workout and indicator of fitness in the past. Friend I coach had the same experience, live and learn.

Week ending 3/11 - 75 miles, day off and an easy 6 tuesday to recover from horrible workout on 3/4

4@t, 4' rest, 3@t, 3' rest, 2@t, went on feel with 50ft of climbing per mile and 40 mile per hour wind gusts, still felt sluggish

23 total - 3e, 4t, 10e, 3t, 3e. 1000 ft of climbing, first tempo averaged 551s with 80ft of elevation change. Second was like smoove describes, closer to m pace despite t effort, averaged 610s with 120ft of elevation change.

Current - 97 in last 7 days

18 easy yesterday

Other than the half and the workout on March 4, Im consistently well ahead of where I was a year ago, when I ran 2:39:30. Really hoping for good weather so I can chase a 2:35.

HahaRiiiiiiight wrote:

Not to state the obvious, but cut the soda ASAP - replace with water and some coffee. There is no need to count calories. Simply eat REAL food. Fruits, veggies, whole grains and oats, whole milk dairy, organic meats and wild caught fish, honey, maple syrup, etc - and eat as much as you want. Nothing processed, no added sugar. It's not hard. Your body will dial in to it's correct weight.

This is easy to say and very very hard to do. There's no way I'm cutting out processed foods...I'm way too lazy/unmotivated for that. I'm not trying to make a miracle happen here, just to run a 2:29. Not worth living like Kipchoge just to run a 2:27.

And yeah, I cut the soda starting this week. I'll probably indulge once or twice a week but hopefully the cravings go away after some time.

Also, I don't buy that your body "dials in to its correct weight". That is simply false. If you eat too much, you will gain weight.

Anyway, I'm not gonna step on a scale for 2 weeks. Weighed in at 143lbs last Friday or Saturday, before my half.

non-diet related...I've recovered pretty well from that half. I definitely left some time out there as I got in ten miles Monday and another 10.5 Tuesday with some 7:00 miles feeling about as easy as they have in months. I'm going to try a long fartlek today and find out for sure how I recovered. Easy runs are one thing...

he was 49:04ish. You can look him up, he will be the guy from JAX I suppose. You can mention me but I haven't met him in person so I can't vouch for either of you.

I actually reached out to him independently and I don't think he is shooting for as aggressive a time as we would have thought based on his 15k, but he has a group of people he is running with, some of whom will be shooting for times in the range that I will be considering, so I may fined them in the corrals.

Always nice to see when someone has common experiences like we have in the t/l/t workouts.

Hahaha no one ever said living like Kipchoge - a beer each night after hard workouts isn't gonna hurt.

It's really not hard to do - gradually cut the processed foods until you eliminate them, eventually they won't even be appealing. The thought of eating a pile of preservatives and GMOs will be crazy. Also, you'll be amazed at how much more energy you will have and how much better you will feel.

As for the weight issue, I guess everyone is different. But if you are running 60+MPW (less for some people) and eating a reasonable diet I still maintain that it will take care of itself - especially if you're in your 20s, unless you just have terrible metabolism.

And of course 2:29 is not world beating, but that is still very fast - you'll need every advantage you can get. Congrats on the recent Half.

Smoove wrote:

Always nice to see when someone has common experiences like we have in the t/l/t workouts.

yeah, ive had about 1 in 4 of those go according to plan. I never dread those workouts, they are so well broken up they arent very intimidating, but man that last t section is just brutal. The MTMTM workouts are much more intimidating to approach when you think of 16 miles at marathon pace or faster, but they usually go according to plan and any fade is minimal and not that painful (my recent workout being an exception.) That two times 1400 ft climb was a "split tempo" type workout, but I realized that given the length (5 miles instead of 3 or 4) and the pace (close to 8s) that that had about 80 minutes of tempo in it, that got ugly late too.

You doing 4 x 3200 this week or next? I'll do that next Thursday. In spite of what some have said on this thread, I look forward to that all training block. Going from doing 4 3 2 1, 3 x3, 4 3 3 or 5 x 2, its very refreshing to think about just doing 4 x 2 at T pace.

BouldeRunner, seems like you do a lot of work at MP or T. Doesn't that get old?

Smoove, I think the "group of guys" that he is aiming to run with is me and my old teammates from Portland. Among us we have:

a guy trying to run 2:28-2:29 (but hasn't had a good marathon of his 2 tries...first 3:10ish and second 2:36ish, died last 5mi).

We have another guy who says his goal is 2:30 but I'd bet he runs more like 2:34 on a good day. 2:33 PR I think

Another guy we have is very fit, did a 12mi tempo in 5:33s (after 12mi easy) and ran a 70-71min half recently, but isn't too confident about the longer distances and may not really go for it.

and then there's me I suppose. Likely to be in 2:31-2:32 shape by Boston.

BouldeRunner - what plan out of Daniels are you following?

I did my last 4 x 2 mile workout on March 1 - it went like crap and I ended up cutting it to 3 x 2 miles, with the last interval being closer to marathon pace than tempo pace despite tempo plus effort. That happens to me 3-4 times per training cycle, so no big deal there.

This weeks was supposed to be 8 easy, 6 x 1 mile, 2 easy as one workout, then the t/l/t as my long workout, but I am feeling something in my lower left leg, so I simulated the first workout on the treadmill last night and may push the t/l/t to early next week and run it in place of my 5e/3t/5e /3t workout. I had that workout, a low key 10k race that I intended to run at tempo effort and then a 22 miler on the calendar. The t/l/t will take the place of both the 22 miler and the 5/3/5/3 workout and then the 10k will be my second workout. Week after that is 3e/3t/3e/3t one day, 13 at M the other. Week after that is 5/3/5/3 again (but I rarely actually do that workout, I usually change it to a progression run or something shorter), then 2 x 2.5 miles at tempo with a long cool down to total 12 miles.

Not a lot of work left for me, so I need to make sure this leg gets healthy and I get in the t/l/t and the long M paced runs.

Reed, that sounds right. I may also meet up with one of the guys I ran with until 18 last year who will be with a group of guys trying to run in the 2:28 to 2:32 range. I think my 15k last weeks indicates that I have a legit shot at running in the lower end of that range if the weather is good, I don't cramp up and I otherwise have a good day.

reed wrote:

seems like you do a lot of work at MP or T. Doesn't that get old?

I do, and it's tough at times but it seems to be the right balance given the systems at play in the marathon. I also do a bit more VO2 Max early (see below) as it really seems to elevate my fitness before shifting towards more T and MP work so that work can be done at a higher level. I am, however, heading to the track in about 90 minutes to go for 6 x 1000 and 4 x 400, but half my family is sick and I feel like I might be fighting something so its gonna be a last minute decision after my warm up if I attempt the workout or go easy.

paulc wrote:

BouldeRunner - what plan out of Daniels are you following?

Mine is modified based on a combo of Plan A (2ed) Elite (2ed) and 2Q (3ed). I first started using Daniels for Boston 2016 with a condensed Plan A, and really liked how I gained so much fitness in the phase II with all the VO2 work. I got a lot fitter before starting mid week T or MP work. I wanted to step up my game for Philly 2016 and went for what I felt was the best parts of Elite and 2Q. I battled high hamstring tendinopathy that cycle but really didnt see the improvements in fitness across the training cycle that I did before Boston 16. I was able to run my best race to date based on fitness in Philly but felt the training could be improved. For Boston 17 and currently (didnt do a fall marathon in 17) I front loaded VO2 work a bit but not weekly before transitioning to more T and M. I really felt it helped too. This December coming off a couple months of minimal running and then a couple months of base, I struggled to run 2:56s for 8x800, the next week I was at 2:46. Today I'll probably go through my 800s in 2:35.

@smoove

I remember that 5/3/5/3 work from doing Plan A, I liked that one after the longer TLTs (as you call them). Havent done that since. My plan going forward is:

Q2: 6x1000@I, 4x400@R

Q1: 20-22 easy

Q2: 4 x 3200@T

Q1: 7m, 1t, 7m

Q2: 3 x1600@T, 3x1000@I, 3x400@R

Q1: 8e, 3 x 2@t, 3e

Q2: 4e, 1t, 2m, 1t, 2m, 2e

Q1: 5e, 3m, 5e

Q2: 3 x 1600@t

I also may squeeze some 30 second hills in at some point.

reed wrote:

This is easy to say and very very hard to do. There's no way I'm cutting out processed foods...I'm way too lazy/unmotivated for that. I'm not trying to make a miracle happen here, just to run a 2:29. Not worth living like Kipchoge just to run a 2:27.

1) It's not that hard to cut out processed food. 2) 2:29 will require a miracle for you. 3) I'm not trying to be a huge dick but what makes you think you can run 2:29? You ran a 1:13 half recently and as you have stated you aren't training that hard. People who break 2:30 at Boston are typically in far better shape and/or train much harder. My unwanted advice would be for you to go out in 1:18. If you go out in

BouldeRunner - do you use weekly mileage percentages as Daniels’ does?

If so, you and Smoove, do you count your mileage totals starting on Sundays?

I start my weeks on Monday. I'm a heathen.

Smoove - does that affect the nature of the percentages of a Daniels’ week though? Doesn’t he design it with the percentages aligned to specific workouts and the Q1 workout typically is done that first day of the week - Sunday?

Banana Dieter wrote: 2:29 will require a miracle for you. 3) I'm not trying to be a huge dick but what makes you think you can run 2:29? You ran a 1:13 half recently and as you have stated you aren't training that hard. People who break 2:30 at Boston are typically in far better shape and/or train much harder. My unwanted advice would be for you to go out in 1:18. If you go out in

2:29 will most definitely not require a miracle. Not saying it's going to happen, but lots of good runners do tuneup half marathons at only slightly faster than their goal pace. In fact, that's pretty much my personal rule of thumb. In most of my marathons you can just double my recent half marathon time and add 3 minutes. And it's not because I'm just cruising in the half; I'm usually in that zone between "much harder than any workout" and "dark places where I face my own mortality."

A VDOT of 66 equates to a 1:11-1:11:56 half and a 2:28:40-2:30:36 full. 1:13 and change is close enough that it doesn't contraindicate 2:30 ability, especially because equivalent performances are supposed to be truly equivalent in terms of effort level, tapering, etc.

Another way of thinking about it is that many high level runners never do more than 12 straight miles at MP (admittedly usually with more warmup miles), and they often find it to be a difficult workout. Yet in the race itself, they manage to go over twice as far.

I guess my bottom line is that with the marathon, unlike with shorter distances, there are no good ways to prove that you're ready for a particular time. Obviously excluding very conservative estimates--but nobody asks for proof of those anyway. If you look at most really good marathon performances, the kinds of performances that people are thrilled with, there's usually nothing in their training that proves they were ready.

He simply prescribes two workout per week and a certain percentage of your peak mileage per week. How you arrange those weeks isbup to you.

And if he did prescribe a full weekly schedule, I would just shift it to accommodate the realities of my world.

There's rarely a good reason to be as slavish to any plan as you suggest.