Moen. 2:05. Wins Fukuoka. How??

Firstly, a big thanks for sharing this Renato. Things will only get better with transparency, and it is great that you are sharing all this information.

A couple of questions:

- the test on 8 Aug 2017 in Dresden - correct me if I'm wrong, but in the other thread about Moen's training, you noted that he was running the WC heats in London the next day, so can this date/location be correct? Also you mention that he had the flu in the past few days, but this test shows a high HB (15.3) - I thought it would have been lower after illness?

- the 'elephant in the room' is the total lack of testing in Kenya, or indeed anywhere else at altitude. Maybe I am wrong, but I thought you mentioned that he had also been tested in Kenya during this period?

- Excluding the test around the time of the WCs (the Dresden test referred to above), having only one test between August 2016 and December 2017 doesn't look great. Are you listing all the tests by all testing agencies here?

- I understand that you want to develop your thinking about how the physiology of athletes will alter with high altitude etc. but you're not going to be able to do that with this small data source (i.e. the small number of test results from the time he has been training a lot at altitude over the past 18 months). Don't you have additional data, i.e. your own blood data, that is taken outside of the official testing, that will help you do this? Maybe you are saving this for your own final analysis.

- Did any of the results in 2011 (where the off-score fluctuated between 68 and 100) produce any adverse findings?

Thanks again for posting. Look forward to your answers.

DHT123

The normal range for hemoglobin values is 12.0 to 15.0 g/dL for women and 13.0 to 16.0 g/dL for men.

Men have normal hemoglobin values which are about 1.0 g/dL higher than women...except for Ms. Paula Radcliffe.

Paula's Hb values:

1) 15.6 g/dL with a 2.8 g/dl increase (=21.88%) in ONLY 2 DAYS in the year 2003... is the equivalent of 16.6 g/dL in a man!!!

2) 15.1 g/dL with an OFF score increase from 92 to 109.87 in ONLY 1 DAY at the 2005 World Champs...is the equivalent of 16.1 g/dL in a man!!!

3) 16.2 g/dL in an OOC test at Monte Carlo, Monaco on Feb. 7, 2012...is the equivalent of 17.2 g/dL in a man!!!... WOW!!!

(All of the Hb values posted at the LRC forum for Sondre Moen are within normal range for a man.)

None of the Hb values posted at this forum are suspicious for Sondre Moen...in contrast to the actual leaked values for Ms. Paula Radcliffe...which range from VERY SUSPICIOUS...to...ABSOLUTELY RIDICULOUS.

Of course, any Hb values could be posted at the LRC forum for Sondre Moen.

There is no way to know if the Hb values posted at the LRC forum for Sondre Moen are correct, without seeing the actual blood test results from the lab, or copies of the actual blood test results from the lab.

The actual blood test results from the lab will be part of his private medical records.

Did Sondre Moen give written permission for his blood test results from his private medical records to be posted at the LRC forum by Renato Canova?

Here are some runners managed by Federico Rosa:

1) Pamela Chepchumba (managed by Federico Rosa, banned for EPO at the 2003 World XC Championships.)

2) Agatha Jeruto (800m runner coached by Claudio Berardelli, managed by Federico Rosa) banned 4 years in 2015 for 19-norandrosterone positive doping test (major metabolite of nandrolone.)

3) Matthew Kisorio (58:46 half marathoner coached by Claudio Berardelli, managed by Federico Rosa, banned in 2012 for the anabolic steroid nandrolone, which is administered by IM injection, also talked in interview about drugs injected which increased oxygen in blood and endurance… which sounds like EPO to me.)

4) Rita Jeptoo (2:18:57 marathoner, coached by Claudio Berardelli, managed by Federico Rosa, banned 4 years for EPO use at Boston and Chicago marathons in 2014.)

5) Jemima Sumgong (2016 Olympic Gold medalist and winner of 2016 London marathon, former training partner of Rita Jeptoo, managed by Federico Rosa)

Gabriele Rosa was previously in the sport of CYCLING. He started his first training camp in Kenya in 1991. Federico Rosa came to Kenya in 1996. Claudio Berardelli came to Kenya in 2004. Today they have 5 training camps in Kenya.

Gabriele Rosa and Federico Rosa have just had some very bad luck with some of their runners.

http://www.letsrun.com/news/2016/11/dr-gabriele-rosa-talks-turning-stanley-biwott-jemima-sumgong-marathon-stars-doping-kenya/

https://sports.yahoo.com/news/iaaf-says-olympic-london-marathon-champ-sumgong-failed-040033679--spt.html

http://mobile.nation.co.ke/sports/athletics/Rosa-bans-Sumgong-Jepkesho-Rionoripo-dope-probe/3112514-3932854-7cx1uy/index.html

What is Claudio doing now?

Claudio (like Aden) is upset that because of his bad luck, his team can't compete and win prize money at certain marathons.

"elite entry and prize money rules state that to be eligible for elite entry or the prize purse at the Anthem Richmond Marathon, Markel Richmond Half Marathon and VCU Health 8K, an athlete must not be represented by coaches and/or agents who have had two or more athletes suspended or banned for the use of performance-enhancing drugs in the previous four years."

Would be quite interesting if the IAAF would globally enforce such a rule.

We all know this, obviously. But if you keep bringing this up, the Gary troll will try to destroy this thread too.

You guys... according to you there is no such thing as dehydration affecting plasma levels. Why are you so insistent that you are right? Delusion is the answer to that one.

No. But normally, dehydration/plasma shift 60 - 90 minutes after a 67 minute race in the low 70s will be under 2%, not 22 - 30%.

And there was nothing to be dehydrated from when the 16.2 g/dL were recorded.

Ridiculo.

Fact or fiction? Link?

casual obsever wrote:

No. But normally, dehydration/plasma shift 60 - 90 minutes after a 67 minute race in the low 70s will be under 2%, not 22 - 30%.

Dr.SkyRunner.Shiva.at.12633ft.com wrote:

(All of the Hb values posted at the LRC forum for Sondre Moen are within normal range for a man.)

None of the Hb values posted at this forum are suspicious for Sondre Moen...

casual obsever wrote:

No. But normally, dehydration/plasma shift 60 - 90 minutes after a 67 minute race in the low 70s will be under 2%, not 22 - 30%.

And there was nothing to be dehydrated from when the 16.2 g/dL were recorded.

Ridiculo.

Normally yes. But that's not true dehydration is it. Real dehydration is where you sweat so much, you have to shift a lot of plasma just to keep sweating to the end of the race.

And bear in mind Paula regularly atltidue trainined, where the initial plasma shift is just that 20-30%

So it's normal for someone with a hematocrit of 42 to go up to 52 after two days at altitude. That's not extra red blood cells, that's reduced plasma volume without even sweating, due to the colder drier air.

You can see the effect in a race in humid conditions, where the heart rate rises as much as 20 bpm for a steady pace, that's cardiac drift a sympton of plasma shift.

The drug testers don't know what they are doing, they simply lack the physiological knowledge. The same with physiologists, experts in a very small field and have little or no knowledge of how big the subject of ex phys is. Neither do they care, if they did they would do something about it. We have a doping problem because of ignorance, simple as that.

1 - The test of 8th August in the lab of Dresden regards a blood sample carried out by the IAAF as soon as Sondre arrived London from Sankt Moritz, where he trained till the previous day. Probably for the great number of tests IAAF decided to use non the lab of London only, but some other Lab, not too far, and Dresden was one of them.

2 - Sondre had several tests in Kenya, but for urine only. In the period 2016 - 2017 he had 9 tests OOC.

3 - These are ALL the tests used for creating the Biological Passport. There are many other tests, mainly from the Norwegian Antidoping Agency (ADNO), for urine only (like the most part of OOC tests in every Country).

4 - For studying the effects of different training, and of altitude, during the last 6 years, I can also use some other private blood tests, where, for example, we went to investigate other values (such as Iron, Ferritin, Transferrin) which are not detected in the blood tests of WADA. I have many tests, sometimes researching values of hormones not investigated by the antidoping agencies, because my goal is to have a more precise picture about the connection between values and performances.

The work for connecting all these data is very hard (especially for somebody like me who coaches on the ground for 8-10 hours every day), and something is not clear. But, believe me, at the end we can have some connection that can change the "classic" ideas about training in altitude and doping.

5 - The data of Sondre started to grow a little from when he increased the volume of training, and when started to go (sometimes only) in altitude. And not forget he didn't train for more than one year, after the big surgery he had with prof. Orava, who showed in this case to be a real number one in his field.

Why do threads go on forever?

Answer:

casual obsever = rekrunner

If he keeps bringing it up, he will destroy the thread on his own.

casual obsever wrote:

We all know this, obviously. But if you keep bringing this up, the Gary troll will try to destroy this thread too.

Dr.SkyRunner.Shiva.at.12633ft.com wrote:

(About Paula, female marathoners, and Rosa in a thread about Moen)

Yikes! Now there's a theory without basis. I was asked (among others) to stop "hijacking" this thread, and (before today) my last post was 15-Dec.

threads go on forever wrote:

Why do threads go on forever?

Answer:

casual obsever = rekrunner

Renato Canova wrote:

5 - The data of Sondre started to grow a little from when he increased the volume of training, and when started to go (sometimes only) in altitude. And not forget he didn't train for more than one year, after the big surgery he had with prof. Orava, who showed in this case to be a real number one in his field.

Didn't you say that as an athlete got fitter their Hb levels fell?

Thanks again for the detailed reply. It just reiterates how little transparency there is out there when I think this is probably the first complete set of blood data that I have seen, despite following the topic quite closely over the past couple of years. You should be applauded for providing this information.

It does however, reaffirm the fact that the testing in Kenya is basically a black hole when it comes to blood testing and the ABP. True, there is some level of testing (urine), although the integrity of that testing has been questionable (pre-announced tests). But essentially the majority of the world's best athletes have no blood testing whenever they train there (which is most of the time), and that is not a great situation given that the ABP is the main weapon to identify suspicious patterns indicating doping.

Subway Surfers Addiction wrote:

Renato Canova wrote:

5 - The data of Sondre started to grow a little from when he increased the volume of training, and when started to go (sometimes only) in altitude. And not forget he didn't train for more than one year, after the big surgery he had with prof. Orava, who showed in this case to be a real number one in his field.

Didn't you say that as an athlete got fitter their Hb levels fell?

I think he said that hematocrit levels fall as athletes get fitter or when hemoglobin rises

ocd much? wrote:

And bear in mind Paula regularly atltidue trainined, where the initial plasma shift is just that 20-30%

So it's normal for someone with a hematocrit of 42 to go up to 52 after two days at altitude. That's not extra red blood cells, that's reduced plasma volume without even sweating, due to the colder drier air.

You sure about that? 24%? Source?

In any case, none of these data were obtained after two days of altitude. Paula's extreme changes came within 1 - 3 days in competition. Sondre's largest change in any given year was 3.1 in Hct (7%), caused by altitude.

That is in line with Canova's earlier observations that a) Hct does not rise hugely at altitude and b) that effect is even smaller when the athlete is used to altitude.

DHT123 wrote:

Thanks again for the detailed reply. It just reiterates how little transparency there is out there when I think this is probably the first complete set of blood data that I have seen, despite following the topic quite closely over the past couple of years. You should be applauded for providing this information.

Absolutely!

Those data are particularly interesting in comparison with others. Unfortunately the IAAF, led by Coe, still fights against transparency, so most data available come from leaked data or scientific studies.

DHT123 wrote:

It does however, reaffirm the fact that the testing in Kenya is basically a black hole when it comes to blood testing and the ABP.

True. You can also basically replace Kenya in that sentence with Africa. Maybe that's why the IAAF almost never reacts on even the most outrageous ABP violations (to level the playing field).