Torrence Speaks Out Against Lagat After 5k Final

Anyone who has been watching track for years does jump to suspicions of doping. Lagat has been training to run 51-53 second final 400s in 1500-5000 for the past 16+ years. It's not asking much for him to do it off of a slow pace like the 5000 final.

No one else in that race, sans Hill who was not 100%, can do that on their best day. That's not Lagat's problem. Those young guys all seemed to train for a long grind to the finish, rather than sharpening their kicking speed.

Experience and preparation won the day. Lagat should have been run down, but no one was up to the task.

flop flop flop wrote:

Madmandoc wrote:

Well when you close in 51 off a 12:50 pace, it is pretty suspicious. Especially when you never demonstrated much speed before.

3:26.34

How is 3:26.34 equal to a 51 off a 12:50 pace? Please explain.

Lagat should have been run down? Please show me a 5K where a guy running a 52 sec last lap was run down?!! You have to be joking.

52 sec last laps are rare air for 5K and 10Ks. Before the Gebs, Bekeles, Mo Farah's of the world, we NEVER saw them. Now I'm supposed to believe a 42 year old man not only closes out a 5K in 4:00 flat mile but pulls a 52 last lap??!!! Yeah sure. Oh and this is against several younger runners who have low (and recent) 13:1X PRs. MMMkayyyy.

bareforererererere wrote:

hey are limits and huge leaps are extremely suspicious -- both logically and statistically.

There was no huge leap at the trials 5k. It was a failed hobbyjog experiment that bit the millennial runners in the a**.

Unless it's proven, he's innocent, regardless of what you are "supposed to believe". David and the others sitting back and commentating with their "sub elite", yes I said "sub elite", opinions are simply jealous. Nick couldn't cut the mustard and went as far as he could with his level of talent. Bottom line, he was a decent runner, but never good enough to make the marathon team. Look up the results from years ago, Nick would have been a flea in those fields...and Nick knows it.David is running off to another country just to be able to say that he competed in the Olympics, but his permanent residence is here???? I know where his mother is from and I don't care, he lives here. If he could have made top 3 in Eugene and represented the US, he would not have ran off to run for Peru. There's 100% proof of what David is doing and why he's doing it and in my opinion, it's wrong. But you and him can second guess Lagat??? How does that work??? Did you administer the tests??? Is your middle name Osmosis??? Maybe he's THAT good and like Nick, you just couldn't cut the mustard, aka jealous:)You guys are a joke and have no idea. You have my pity.

xxrundownwhorerererere wrote:

Lagat should have been run down? Please show me a 5K where a guy running a 52 sec last lap was run down?!! You have to be joking.

52 sec last laps are rare air for 5K and 10Ks. Before the Gebs, Bekeles, Mo Farah's of the world, we NEVER saw them. Now I'm supposed to believe a 42 year old man not only closes out a 5K in 4:00 flat mile but pulls a 52 last lap??!!! Yeah sure. Oh and this is against several younger runners who have low (and recent) 13:1X PRs. MMMkayyyy.

If you want to be suspect of Bernard Lagat because of previous controversies, that's certainly logical, but to be suspect of Lagat based on his performance last night is foolish at best.

Lagat closed in 53.7 when he ran the AR of 12:53, which was only 5 years ago. So that's a 53.7 close off a hot pace.

Last night he closed in 52 high (52.82) off a much slower pace, which was only .36 seconds faster than Mead's closing lap (53.18). Mead ran a 1500m pr earlier this season of 3:37.65. Lagat's 1500m pr, while very old, is 3:26, 11 seconds faster than Mead's pr. And while Lagat may be nowhere near running a 3:26 1500m right now, that doesn't mean his basic leg speed gone.

And yes, people slow down as they age, but turning 40 is not running off a cliff. Lots of runners that are able stay healthy and train consistently experience only slight slowdowns in their early to mid 40s. Some of that can even be mitigated just by training smarter. The more significant performance decreases tend to come in late 40s and early 50s. One of the big reasons there aren't more Mebs and Lagats out there is people can't stay healthy and/or they aren't willing to keep coming back from injury.

This may be Lagat's Lance-come-back-moment.

Going back and watching Lagat's 1500m PR is like going back and watch Lance '99.

Lance coming back re-opened a can of worms that almost sealed shut in regards to his previous negative A-sample(s).

I mean, it was truly awesome to watch Lagat's kick the other night, but yeah, his hay-day was at the prime of the EPO era (El G, Haile, Bekele, Dibaba) and man, was it fun to watch, just as the current crop of sub 2:04 runners are fun to watch.... I'd love to believe they're clean and I'll keep watching and cheering just like I did for Lance through 2001, until it just became too obvious.

andicamp wrote:

If you want to be suspect of Bernard Lagat because of previous controversies, that's certainly logical, but to be suspect of Lagat based on his performance last night is foolish at best.

Lagat closed in 53.7 when he ran the AR of 12:53, which was only 5 years ago. So that's a 53.7 close off a hot pace.

All of his times are suspect. But last night's performance was 3 or 4 standard deviations from the mean. Meaning, he's cheating.

Too many liberal arts and women's studies majors on LR apparently. None of you understand basic statistics. Statistics are used to PROVE fraud every single day in our country. But somehow you morons don't think those rules apply to guys like Lagat.

Not Naive Here, but in da know wrote:

Unless it's proven, he's innocent, regardless of what you are "supposed to believe".

David and the others sitting back and commentating with their "sub elite", yes I said "sub elite", opinions are simply jealous.

I hope the Brojos analyze threads like these for Nike HQ IP addresses.

At any rate, "innocent until proven guilty" is not a universal truism, it describes the technical workings of the American legal system. But this discussion has very little to do with the American legal system. I don't think taking performance enhancing drugs or homologous blood doping are even illegal in the US. Does that mean it's ok to do it? Sure Lagat hasn't been proven guilty, but neither have the Russians. So?

On the other hand, performance-based criticisms seem silly to me. Who's to say what's humanly possible and what's not? The main thing that tends to stick out to me is progression and year to year improvement, which one would expect to decrease over time, all else held constant.

Exactly. He was probably a 12:45 guy, at the slowest, when he was at his peak. He's run 3:26 before. He closed a sub 13 race in 51 about ten years ago. He's gotten consistently slower over the years which is what is expected as a person ages. The key for Lagat is he has been healthy, as a whole, throughout his entire career. He had a couple minor injuries here and there but nothing serious. He could probably run 13:10-13:20 for 5000 and 3:37 for 1500 right now in an all-out time trial. Four years ago, he could ran just under 13 minutes. Four years before that, he could have broken 12:50. Four years before that, he probably had the ability to run 12:45 or faster. He's slowed down...it's just that the United State's top competition is slower today than four years ago. Four years ago, he had Rupp to kick with him. This year, the competition wasn't at the top of their fitness. He outkicked a bunch of guys who could run 13:10-13:20 or so right now, which is the same level he's at right now. True, Hill, and Rupp, based on past performances, was his best competition this year, but none of them were not in top 5000 meter shape, for different reasons. If this were 2007 Lagat in this race, he would have kicked in 50.something off this pace. Lagat of 2012 could have kicked in 51.something. Go watch the trials from 2012.

I don't follow. First you can't believe he made allegations against Lagat but you would expect allegations against Jenkins.

I am not surprised that you are interested in the Dr Brown story but LRC seems much less interested in the Aden / Dibaba story or the Rosa story.

Ultrahype wrote:

This isnt about the source. This is about a 41 year old closing in 52 and winning tbe trials. I like Lagat but this is aals big a red flag as Dibaba.

I want all cheats out, but skepticism based purely upon performance will get us NOWHERE on this issue, ok. Just stop it. This sort of speculation really pisses me off. Everyone at this level of competition, cheating or not cheating, is a genetic outlier and capable of closing at those speeds on their best day. Lagat has run this fast in the past. The fact that he has not done so as consistently in recent years is probably because he is aging, but even so on any given day it's by no means unreasonable that he could pull it off one more time. Could he be cheating? Of course--but there is just as much reason to believe he put this race together legally. The fact is none of us knows and probably never will know. It is VERY annoying when people feel the need to claim a certainty that is vastly outside their actual ken. Those of us who love this sport really want certainty--I do too--but we are not going to get it--ever. There is just too much corruption to get that. But even so, I cannot accept that certain performances "have to be because of cheating" merely because of how good they are.

He closed in 52.6 off a faster pace, losing to Rupp, in 2012. He was probably peaking for the Olympics in 2012 while I think the trials was his main focus this year.

I'm not saying he absolutely isn't doping or hasn't doped in the past, but this performance is not anything too shocking given his track record. He had a poor showing at USA's last year because he was sick. If he were healthy, he would have probably won at USA's last year, too. The guy has won 8 titles over 5000 meters...this is far from surprising to me. He isn't as good as the Lagat of 2012 and the Lagat of 2012 wasn't as good as the Lagat of 2008, etc. It's just America's competition isn't that great.

I would have to subscribe to him being clean when he had 12:45 potential and ran 3:26 to subscribe to the performance degradation curve which you would propose allows him to run the times he does today clean...which I don't. Either you believe his best performances over his career have been clean, or they have been juiced.

xxrundownwhorerererere wrote:

andicamp wrote:

If you want to be suspect of Bernard Lagat because of previous controversies, that's certainly logical, but to be suspect of Lagat based on his performance last night is foolish at best.

Lagat closed in 53.7 when he ran the AR of 12:53, which was only 5 years ago. So that's a 53.7 close off a hot pace.

All of his times are suspect. But last night's performance was 3 or 4 standard deviations from the mean. Meaning, he's cheating.

Too many liberal arts and women's studies majors on LR apparently. None of you understand basic statistics. Statistics are used to PROVE fraud every single day in our country. But somehow you morons don't think those rules apply to guys like Lagat.

I would argue that his performance is exactly the mean. In slow races he does well, beating Bekele in his prime for example. Calling him a doper for doing what he does, shows that you don't have an understanding of basic statistics or you don't follow track and field. Are you suggesting that in a 200m sprint Lagat, at 41, couldn't take on pretty much everyone 5 and 10 km. Nothing new happened... David might as well said that everyone in the field is doping. Its illogical to bring it up for that performance in my opinion.

This, your post asfsdagds, proves your moronic nonsense as I hope that they analyze it too. This whole site is a bunch of "know-it-all wannabes" who reek of paranoia to the nth degree. Bernard ran 52.8 his last 400 off of a slower than usual 5,000 at age 41. You, asfsdagds, are an insecure person who didn't have what it takes, so you rip others apart to make yourself feel better.I live in Michigan with my family and yes, I'm a runner. I've never been to Eugene, Oregon in my entire life, nor have I worked for Nike. I don't run for the Hanson's running team, nor have I worked at any of their stores...but I know a lot more about running AND people than you ever will. To slander someone without proof because of a fast closing 400 off of a slow 5000 pace is reckless and shows your true lack of intelligence. With your logic, everyone is a doper...which is total BS.

juiced all along

geb bekele the same juiced all career

Hassy must be juicing too to improve like he has...

das;fkhjasdkfhdsa wrote:

but Lagat wasn't mediocre in college. he was fu$king spectacular.

i watched him run 146 multiple times in the late 90s at wsu w/ ZERO competition (albeit he had a rabbit take him thru 50 flat 400m) on WINDY days

on drugs or not, genetically he is a freak of nature

Bob Villalobos wrote:

What does Torrence have to gain by calling out Lagat? Nothing. Plenty to lose. He's just speaking his mind. He thinks Lagat is dirty. So do most distance running fans who understand how weird it is for a 41 year old man to close in 52. A guy who was mediocre in college.

I call BS on this. Here are his top 10 800s all-time:

10.08.2003 Berlin ISTAF GER GL 8 1:46.00

29.07.1998 Paris-St-Denis Meeting Gaz de France FRA A 10 1:46.02

08.08.1999 Köln Weltklasse GER A 6 1:46.06

25.06.2003 Luzern Spitzen Leichtathletik SUI 4 1:46.17

07.07.2009 Lausanne Athletissima SUI 8 1:46.84

15.06.2000 Helsinki Ericsson GP FIN 3 1:46.85

26.04.2003 Des Moines Drake Relays Invitational USA 1 1:46.89

22.05.1999 Tempe Pac-10 Ch. USA 2 1:46.90

29.03.2002 Stanford Elite Inv. USA 1 1:46.90

18.04.2004 Walnut Mt. SAC Relays Invitational USA 2 1:46.96

So Lagat ran a grand total of ZERO 1:46 800s in the 1990s by himself.