What is everyone's problem with the US Army runners being Kenyan?

All this to date at tax payer, Scott Fauble, and Chris Derrick's expense ..

This is the dumbest line in the whole thing and destroys your entire argument.

If Fauble and Derrick finished 1st and 2nd in the trials they STILL WOULD NOT BE OLYMPIANS. Neither had the A standard and were both ineligible to run in Rio unless they ran sub 28:00 at the trials. So the WCAP meant nothing to Scott or Chris.

They missed the qualifying standard at the trials by a lot and never tried to get under 28:00.

THEY RAN 28:45 and 28:47

We are being able to witness an epic psychotic breakdown in this thread. The only other posters that come to mind who have had worse breakdowns are A Duck, George M, and DiscoGary.

fogremover wrote:

1. They don't look American.

2. They speak Kenyan, not English.

1. The national language of Kenya is English

2. There is no such Language as Kenya (most runners speak swahili and kalenjin)

This is an excellent representative of the anti-Kenyan sentiment in the US...uninformed. It is because of these Kenyans that we are relevant. Americans have to compete with kenyans consistently earlier and earlier...in the college ranks and even from time to time in the HS ranks. Our standard is now much higher...UK runners have not shown the same level of improvement across the board in the past 20yrs like the US has...they do not face the same number of foreign challengers. So...we can have an "ethnically pure" Trials where our winner comes home in an irrelevant 13:55, or we can compete in the global "market"--so to speak--and develop competitive runners.

The most charming/alarming part of this is the more facts and logic he is presented with the more illogical he becomes

Are you speaking English? - this is a garbled dialogue.

So I interpret your message as we should just provide incentives to all foreign elite of elite runners to come to our HS rosters so the US can buy relevance in World Class events.

How about state colleges that obtain funding from US taxpayers stopping all scholarships to foreign students and start helping US citizen's children obtain a college education without incurring massive student debt?

If you cannot create incentives to develop native talent then go buy it so you appear to be relevant and feel good about your sports team - follow the Golden States Warrior model and own all the superstars.

Somehow I cannot feel much pride in success that has been bought and not earned. Wonder if the labs are working on genetically designed children to create the next generation of free super athletes and making doping obsolete.

VAcoach - are any US coaches capable of developing US talents or have you all resorted to buying what is basically a professional team at the college/high school level so you can raise a trophy and secure your own personal success?

Qualifying Standards Ignored?? wrote:

Focus on the CURRENT roster and then name all the runners that are Non-Kenyan

Maybe one if you consider a walker as some form of a runner

The WCAP website does not list any Non-Kenyan runners - ZERO

So either your experience is old or you are the one that is stubborn and have no desire to be objective.

To make it easy for you to do some research here are the facts:

http://www.armymwr.com/wcap/track-field.aspx

I read the link, and yes all of the RUNNERS are from Kenya. However, all of them have a non-athletic MOS that I assume they will perform after their running days are over. They deserve to make the US team as much as an American-born runner does, end of story.

Hypocritical Hal wrote:

They missed the qualifying standard at the trials by a lot and never tried to get under 28:00.

THEY RAN 28:45 and 28:47

--------------------------------------------

Then like the Long Jump, the next 2 highest non-WCAP Rift Valley Foreign Legion runners would be going to the Olympics: I'm fine w/that!

Qualifying Standards Ignored?? wrote:

VAcoach - are any US coaches capable of developing US talents or have you all resorted to buying what is basically a professional team at the college/high school level so you can raise a trophy and secure your own personal success?

- Amen ... WCAP model, but w/citizenship & taxpayer dollars to boot ...

sc runner wrote:

Qualifying Standards Ignored?? wrote:

Focus on the CURRENT roster and then name all the runners that are Non-Kenyan

Maybe one if you consider a walker as some form of a runner

The WCAP website does not list any Non-Kenyan runners - ZERO

So either your experience is old or you are the one that is stubborn and have no desire to be objective.

To make it easy for you to do some research here are the facts:

http://www.armymwr.com/wcap/track-field.aspx

I read the link, and yes all of the RUNNERS are from Kenya. However, all of them have a non-athletic MOS that I assume they will perform after their running days are over. They deserve to make the US team as much as an American-born runner does, end of story.

- A most horrible, horrible, bad, bad ASSUMPTION which results in a ignorant conclusion. WCAP's significantly DISRUPTED any sustainable US long-distance running talent model other than the most very elites ... & they're having a tought time to date in the OTs.

Qualifying Standards Ignored?? wrote:

VAcoach - are any US coaches capable of developing US talents or have you all resorted to buying what is basically a professional team at the college/high school level so you can raise a trophy and secure your own personal success?

My sentiments exactly.

Many coaches filling rosters with foreign athletes in order to secure their own longevity, bonuses, etc.

It's competitive out there, I get that. Let's see which coaches can actually develop athletes.

Clearly I am paying for "that" in my taxes. So if I had the chance to earmark the portion of my taxes that goes to subsidize student athletes I would choose to subsidize those athletes that their parents have already been paying into the system.

Further evidence of declining educational standards. Let me highlight what I did not say: we should bring as many foreign runners over as possible. My PhD is in philosophy and not English, so I will admit that typing this out on a phone may not be the best way to present an argument, but nothing I said implies the conclusion that the more foreign runners the better or that we should intentionally stack an Olympic team. But to discriminate against legitimate US citizens based on their country of birth is as despicable as it is counter productive.

because these runners are already over here, Americans have had to train harder and aim higher at earlier and earlier stages in their development making us more competitive internationally--now that we have to run sub 13:20 in college to be a legit contender in college (something Pre never did) and under 15min in the 5K in HS. Translation for the logically impaired: this does not mean no American ever ran under these standards until Kenyans came along. No, instead these are now the new "norms."

The US has poured a lot of money into the top athletes without investing in the development process. If one can make it to the national level, then a shoe company will invest a lot of money. Now that we are witnessing the twilight of an era in American marathoning (end of Hall and Ritz, the beginning of the end of Meb), who's on the horizon? Rupp maybe, but his days have got to be limited. NIke isn't investing in the development of youth and juniors, nor is USATF. One can make an argument for colleges, but that window is too limited. One of the only forces in American distance running pushing for the improvement of the entire field our openness to compete with foreign talent at younger and younger ages.

The Bottom Line: having these Kenyans over here--legitimate US citizens who have volunteered to serve our country--make us faster.

Dr.:

- It's implicit and certainly explicit that for some collegiate programs, that it's all about winning and thus it's legitimate to recruit foreigners that can immediately contribute to the xc/track team.

- That said, the US Army's job is to recruit soldiers & prepare them to serve in combat. That is not occurring in this case ... WCAP's targeting these Kenyan Collegiates to primarily represent WCAP versus serve in the regular Army. Furthermore, they exploit the original intentions of fast-track immigration.

- Do the ends -- WCAP fielding a WC team & disrupting an already fledgling US track & field development model), justify the means -- recruiting a Kenyan Rift Valley Foreign Legion to run versus fight & exploiting immigration loopholes?

Nobody's looking for your legal interpretation ... looking for you to get after it w/that Philosophy PHD and address the ethical piece.

So pouring money into foreign applicants with scholarships and army funds is your solution to make the US running talent faster?

That's seems to be a hollow justification to a program like WCAP that has lost it's original charter to make the sponsors and coaches appear more successful than may be justified.

I could have maybe accepted the fact that no American born applicants applied if they had adhered to the published standards.

But recruiting a runner that has never come close to the standards violates all the ethics of the program.

Numbers are numbers - either you meet the standard or you do not.

WCAP has demonstrated they no longer have hard standards and should open the program to any runner that wants to apply and allow them to be a full time runner, get paid, earn post military benefits, etc.

There should be an investigation into this program in regards to the number of athletes that were rejected (or did not apply) due to the application guidelines.

Because a prior team mate is on the squad and could possibly benefit from a training partner is not a published acceptance criteria.

Seems like the Army performance guidelines are not as significant indicator of World Class Performance as they may have been in the past.

As Mark Whetmore was once quoted:

"I believe in investing in American high school kids whose parents have paid taxes, one presumes, for 18 years into the system," he says. "Part of their taxes goes to higher education. Why should international student athletes displace the children of people who have paid?"

I'm sure that Korir and Kipchirchir are nice, hard working guys who are happy to be here and genuinely excited to be representing the U.S. In Rio. But make no mistake - they are as American as Said Saif Shaheen is Quatari.

The more I think about it and the more I read all these logical replies to my nonsense I have come to conclude that MAJ Browne and WCAP is on the up and up. This ship has sailed

Barabbas wrote:

I'm sure that Korir and Kipchirchir are nice, hard working guys who are happy to be here and genuinely excited to be representing the U.S. In Rio. But make no mistake - they are as American as Said Saif Shaheen is Quatari.

When was Cherono in the Qatari military?

In the interest of full disclosure, my specific area is metaphysics not ethics so I am more qualified to speak on whether or not Kenyans exist. (I am sure that attempt at humor is lost on this message board). Secondly, I spent over twelve years in the Army and wrote recommendations for several of the current WCAP runner's entry into the Army.

While issues of legality and ethics are not identical, nor are they mutually exclusive. The Army is governed by regulations. NONE of these runners were recruited for the WCAP program...they were recruited to be soldiers and if their times met the WCAP standard, then they were given the opportunity to represent the Army as an athlete. I guarantee you the Army doesn't give 2 Fs what nationality their WCAP runners are...there are those who meet the standard and those who don't. Elkanah Kibet served in a finance btn (enlisted I believe despite having a college degree in finance) while training for the marathon trials...only after did he qualify for the WCAP program. They went through basic training like every other soldier, they have a military specific MOS like any other soldier. Any suggestion that these Kenyans were recruited specifically to run by the Army or that they cannot be deployed and die for their country is simply wrong and misguided. I suspect few on this message board have served and have no point of reference to comment here.

The Army, like running, is as close to a meritocracy as it comes in this world. You meet a standard and you're good...you fail to meet the standard and you're not good. These Kenyans volunteered to join the military, they met a standard, they qualified for the OT, and they ran well. Where is the ethical ambiguity here? I may be reading into some posts here, but it seems the sentiment is that Chris Derrick deserves to be on the Olympic team even though he couldn't beat a couple second tier Kenyan runners. How is he going to fare against Kamworwor and Karoki much less Farah (assuming the Kenyans can finish the race this time around)?

These Kenyans earned their American citizenship, they earned their WCAP standard, and they earned their place on the Olympic team. You don't like it, then Americans should train harder (which many of them are doing thanks to these Kenyans).