I heartily agree with both of you. Though I am a relatively new participant in the thread, I immediately felt at home among my fellow 50+ runners. I do enjoy the many other threads about elite athletics and whatnot, but having a spot dedicated to the "more experienced" athlete makes me feel more a part of something special here. Here's hoping the offenders either grow up or go away.
Desert Rat, I just want to remind you that there is not likely any member of this thread in earnest that is behaving childlike. But there is not any mechanism by which some interloper can't post their insidious comments. Unfortunately, the way the LetsRun message boards are administered, you can never be 100% certain when things can be taken at face value (even password protected user names can and have been hacked), but you can certainly tell when you can suspect a troll. All earnest members of this thread will be respectful of other's posts. If it's not a respectful comment, as is requested in the preamble, you can assume its an interloper and can safely ignore it (and please do!)
This whole episode reminds me of my time living in Seattle, when my wife and I would go cross-country skiing in the Cascade Mountains. There are hundreds and hundreds of miles of logging roads up in those mountains that are shut down for winter activity (mostly snowmobiles). Just a few of those roads are designated for cross-country skiers, and are not to be ruined by snowmobiles. Everyone knows the rules, and nearly everyone honors that creed, but there is very little enforcement of the rule, so invariably, a rogue snowmobiler (well in the minority) would choose to use one of these few trails for their selfish pleasure. There are so many more miles that are available to them, why they would choose to use one of the few miles dedicated to cross-country skiers is beyond me, but they would. It sullied the tracks, to be sure, but that didn't keep my wife and I from cross-country skiing, nor did we allow it to keep us from enjoying our experience out in the wilderness.
We can choose to do the same here.
Great analogy lucKY2B. Letsrun, like life at large, requires us to separate the wheat from the chaff.
Desert Rat,, Hang with us as you prep for NYCM.
The Hydra tends to go dormant after spewing his nefarious garbage.
Kiryea wrote:
I heartily agree with both of you. Though I am a relatively new participant in the thread, I immediately felt at home among my fellow 50+ runners. I do enjoy the many other threads about elite athletics and whatnot, but having a spot dedicated to the "more experienced" athlete makes me feel more a part of something special here. Here's hoping the offenders either grow up or go away.
Getting back to the masters (50-60) age groups doing the sub
5 mins miles; do you agree that your annual meet (like mny others I spose)is just not sending those results to the national body?
Either that or you are living in Sacramento where
most of the fast times are being done, sheesh.Whats in the water there? ;)
ThomY wrote:
Getting back to the masters (50-60) age groups doing the sub-5 mins miles; do you agree that your annual meet (like mny others I spose)is just not sending those results to the national body?
Either that or you are living in Sacramento where
most of the fast times are being done, sheesh.Whats in the water there? ;)
As far as I know, there really is no definitive national system to which all masters times are officially reported and posted. It's not like meet directors are sending in all their results to some national body to be presented on the web in one convenient location. At best, you'll find results from each meet on some local chapter website (or worse, they're buried on some coaches association website mixed in with a bunch of high-school meets) if you are willing to dig. The one place, masterstrack.com, only has self-reported times. So, frankly, there is nothing very official about it (it'd be great if it were more universally embraced.) Bottom line is that the vast majority of masters times remain only locally reported.
I know there are pockets of very fast 50+ runners in isolated regions of the country. New England, CA, DC area, and around Atlanta, to name a few, have clubs with multiple fast 50+ masters. Whether their times make it into some national system is really a crap shoot. Here in Kentucky, I know of about 5-6 50+ guys (I'm sure there are more) that are capable of sub 5-minute mile, but they rarely run that distance (and its rarely run, too), so you won't find much at all from here. Unfortunately, Kentucky doesn't rank as a track haven; wish there was more enthusiasm for the sport. But there are areas as mentioned above where it's taken more seriously, and is much more competitive. I don't think that's the norm, however.
Good thread. Not quite 50 yet... But feel older!
Wondering a couple of things that maybe those with more experience can help with:
- when trying to regain fitness after a decade of haphazard training and injury, are a few hard days (10k pace work, hills, long run) and cross training a better bet than maybe 2 hard days/week and doubles 4-5 days/week?
I ask because I feel like injury avoidance is the mostbimportant factor right now.
- secondly, in looking at some of the training logs of the top guys out there (malmo, salazar, etc...), i noticed that when younconvert their miles to time using say 6:00 pace, you find that many of these days would convert to things like 30 in am and 45-60 in pm. Certainly tough to schedule and a grind over the years, but less than what i see a number of normal humans trying (and failing) to achieve. Am i missing something?
Bushman, I am training for my first NYCM this November. Very much looking forward to the race!
pghickster, to answer your either/or question directly, I think your few hard days and cross training is likely the better choice. Having said that, and removing the either/or - since injury prevention is #1 goal, if you start your focus on being able to enjoy fitness runs when you're 70 yrs old rather than kicking butt of the other posters in this thread on next Sunday's race, you'll be starting with the right perspective. Pick up training from there and pass a few more of us each few months. Rethink your training if you have recurring pain that lasts more than 24 hrs.
Mopak, I think I have done doubles maybe five days in my life. I started running and racing in my mid 20s and doubles have just not been a time efficient way to manage my day. However, your post way back on 6 September noting the tri guy and your experience is thought provoking. Maybe something for me to experiment with after my NYCM in November.
lucKY2b Thanks for keeping this thread alive and in proper spirit.
Well, now that some of the dust has settled a bit....
pghickster, I don't know if there is a singular answer to your questions. We've got guys that have posted on here that can pound out 80-90 miles a week in singles without a hitch, then we've had others who, while very fast, can't manage more than about 30-35 mpw before some niggle forces them to rest or cross-train. So it's a very individual thing as to what will or will not work for you. I think the main point is to recognize when your body is not ready to handle a hard workout, even if your "plan" calls for one; if it's unusually laborious, it's probably better to back-off and train hard another day. Having that flexibility will steer you clear from going down that rabbit hole (been there, done that.) As to your second point, no, I don't think you're missing anything, and it is a good rigorous schedule that may or may not work for you, as I discussed above. Generally, the muscles and aerobic system will adapt more quickly to an increase in training than the tendons and ligaments will, so it's important as one increases volume and/or intensity to recognize that your body will allow you to increase your training faster than it is really ready to handle. It may take a lot longer than you'd like to be able to increase to a point where you can chronically handle the load to your tendons and ligaments. Just my opinion (your mileage may vary.)
old guy II, nice job on that XC race...I've had the same experience where I've run equal or better when feeling awful...not sure how that goes.
AK-53, yeah, seems some of our recent "regulars" have taken a hiatus. I'm feeling a bit like I've lost a few friends and am hoping that they will reconsider and rejoin the fray. I certainly enjoy reading about our super-fast 50+er's. I know several are training for the National 5k Masters Championships to be held in Syracuse in a couple of weeks (http://www.usatf.org/events/2011/USAMasters5kmChampionships/), and I'd definitely love to know how things are going in the lead-up. I'm pretty sure Pete Magill will be trying to do something special at this race. Curious whether John Tuttle will be joining them, he's not listed as of yet.
Rtype, should have said this in my initial response, but best of luck with the knee. One thing that I found has been working really well for me as I've been rehabbing my knee is to end my easy runs by jogging 100 steps (or 200, depending on how you count them) backwards. I can really feel it working those support muscles that surround the knee. Certainly, being cautious has also helped.
alhoa warrior, there is a lot of wisdom on this thread from the earnest posters. Many have had excellent running careers. There is no doubt that one has to change expectations as one gets older, and in your case, I applaud your tenacity and resilience. Some of life's adversities have clearly placed extra challenges on you that makes every day that you are able to get out the door and hit the pavement a day to be grateful for. Kudos.
Skuj, way back in my youth, as a speedskater, we took long-range periodized training theory very seriously (Diane Holum was our coach), and were taught how essential rest weeks were as we built up our training. We'd back off every fourth week whether we felt the need to or not. It was a integral part of the training schedule and is something that I had adhered to do for two years of increasing distances and improving times (and no injuries). Then I ignored this training habit late last summer and that is when all the trouble started. Not sure how often you back off on your training, but perhaps those couple of tired runs were a signal to take it easy this week....just a thought.
So, over 50 and Desert Rat are both running NYCM...cool.
Really enjoying everyone's posts this week. Cheers.
Two hard days with doubles 4-5 days and a long run is plenty for most of us. That's about what I've done when healthy, both with skiing and running.
AK-53 wrote:
Two hard days with doubles 4-5 days and a long run is plenty for most of us. That's about what I've done when healthy, both with skiing and running.
Thanks for the input. I think that is probably plenty for most at any age. What I'm trying to work through is what is the most/least I can to 1. Stay healthy. 2. Regain fitness. 3. Race
Right now I'm toying with either:
Mon: am - 30 min bike
pm - 30 min bike and core work
Tue: 10k pace work
Wed: same as monday
Thu: 60-75 min
Fri: same as monday
Sat: hills or 5k pace work
Sun: 75-90
Or:
Mon: as above
Tue: 45 min
Wed: 10k pace work
Thu: 45 min
Fri: same as monday
Sat: hills or 5k pace work
Sun: 75-90
Doubles... I love the idea, but worry about recovery and trying to be realistic about my job (extensive travel) and parenting responisibilities.
lucKY2b wrote:
Skuj, way back in my youth, as a speedskater, we took long-range periodized training theory very seriously (Diane Holum was our coach), and were taught how essential rest weeks were as we built up our training. We'd back off every fourth week whether we felt the need to or not. It was a integral part of the training schedule and is something that I had adhered to do for two years of increasing distances and improving times (and no injuries). Then I ignored this training habit late last summer and that is when all the trouble started. Not sure how often you back off on your training, but perhaps those couple of tired runs were a signal to take it easy this week....just a thought.
I believe in certain forms of periodization, but perhaps not the classic model. I'm a bliever in year-round multipace training, and I am a fan of what Clohessy (sp?) called "complex training". I think at this stage of my running, I lean more towards doing what I "want" to do, vice having the strict program and plan of my youth.
And....I called in sick today!! :) Some weird burning crappy chest thing going on. A 4am bath helped!
And on this day of reflection, I have determined that (for a variety of logistical reasons also): early morning runs to work was new and exciting, and I got used to the idea, but, if I'm to be completely honest with myself...I nearly always hated/dreaded them. None of them felt right. I cannot wake-up and run. Not effectively anyway. Tomorrow I walk in and run home. So yes, after all that discussion, I'm back to 6 runs a week, generally.
Skuj wrote:
And on this day of reflection, I have determined that (for a variety of logistical reasons also): early morning runs to work was new and exciting, and I got used to the idea, but, if I'm to be completely honest with myself...I nearly always hated/dreaded them. None of them felt right. I cannot wake-up and run. Not effectively anyway. Tomorrow I walk in and run home. So yes, after all that discussion, I'm back to 6 runs a week, generally.
I feel ya. I've never had much luck with runs shortly after awakening. Mind you, I do like to run in the AM, but I need a tall glass of juice and a brief session with the newspaper, or TV news, before I can start running. Usually I need an hour. As I get closer to 60, I'm just too stiff and tight when I get out of bed. A little time to loosen up is necessary.
Skuj wrote:
I believe in certain forms of periodization, but perhaps not the classic model. I'm a bliever in year-round multipace training, and I am a fan of what Clohessy (sp?) called "complex training". I think at this stage of my running, I lean more towards doing what I "want" to do, vice having the strict program and plan of my youth.
Sounds like a healthy running philosophy. Sorry the morning runs were getting to be a drag. I was curious to see how that all worked out for you. How many weeks did you experiment with this?
Just popping in here from my mountain enclave in the North Cascades. Ran a beautiful eight mile trail run with a few hill repeats at the end. Got me to reflecting a bit.
Thirty-nine years ago I was a skinny no-sport geek with no guiding athletic passion when I watched Frank Shorter run into the stadium in Munich, and a few days later I decided to turn out for the cross-country team. From a time trial of 6:30 for the mile, evidencing a distinct mediocrity of talent compared to my brother before me (school record-holder in the mile and 2-mile), I was able, three years later, to string 26.2 of those 6:30's together and the die was cast.
Today I felt in places like I could run as fast as I ever have, my feet skimming the ground and arms comfortably driving past the hips, and felt so so grateful that with all the ups and downs and bumps along the way, I am still able to feel that unique freedom. Good luck to all of you who are still driving up the hills and powering off the curve, no matter how gently.
And a special shout out to AK53 AKA RS: I saw this today and thought you might enjoy:
http://video.pbs.org/video/1642358743/
The wolverine was my favorite animal as a boy and I still anticipate the day when I turn a corner on a trail and see one romping eagerly across a mountainside...
BB54
I've had a bit of a fun endurance week so far. A 2h 20m run on Mt Alexander on tuesday (day off from work), up one side, down the other, then up again, then back down again.
2hr plus mountain bike ride on wednesday and a 90min kyak session thursday. With no racing planned for the next couple of weeks I was happy to just bang out a few fun sessions. Just did 2 hours of lawn mowing after work today.
lucKY2b wrote:
Sounds like a healthy running philosophy. Sorry the morning runs were getting to be a drag. I was curious to see how that all worked out for you. How many weeks did you experiment with this?
4 weeks. Some of the runs were ok, but most were just not doing it for me. This isn't a knock against me doing doubles. If I was retired (maybe soon!) I'd do it....but not bed to run at some god awful hour. :)
Walked into work today, still feeling after effects of brief lung infection....might jog 30min to home.
Charlie S wrote:
For the record, I have been lurking but not posting (this notwithstanding). The air around here still doesn't seem quite right. Those of you who have corresponded via email will understand.
OK. Fair enough. Some of us have been more targeted than others, so I can respect that. For my part, all I can do is try to keep my side of the street clean. I'm as capable of making some inelegant statement as the next, so if I ever say something that is interpreted to be derogatory, dishonest, or self-congratulatory, please know that was never (and will never be) my intention. The self-congratulatory part is the grayest area to me. I want us to be able to talk about training and times, so I'm not sure what the best way is to be able to talk about times without it coming across as "look at me, look what I can do", which would never be my intention.
Marathon Build going fairly well with the past couple weeks volume increase. Last week got a steady state in on the tail end of a 20 miler, I believe these are good marathon sessions, but be advised, they take longer to recover from than your basic tempo run mid week. Legs are just aching right now, normal for being in the throws of marathon training but have to be very careful right now, I stepped off a cement berm wrong and thought I strained my achilleas tendon, scared the heck out of me. Might ditch the evening run depending on how it feels later in the day. Again, great blog going on here, anybody else running the ING? Course Tips? Race Day Tips? I've never run this one before so I am wondering if the buses will allow you to hang inside till start time? What do you do and where do you go to chill till the gun? Really appreciate any feedback! Thanks All...
Hello all, I havern't been on this website for quite a while...since I haven't been doing much running due to what could be a career ending problem with left foot..
I'm presently 63 yr. old, been running pretty well all my adult life, quite competitive years ago, was recently running more for fitnes & enjoyment though was stil inclined to 'test' myself & record times over set distances.
The plan for me is to still get back to some running with more x-training (not x-dressing :)) than running.
Being early retired from my public service career due to circumstances beyond my control, I have been keeping active with morning newspaper deliveries, a lot of routes (260 copies of the local paper).
Though running is still possible presently I'm not pushing this until foot symptoms have settled down satisfactorily..was relieved an orthopedic surgeon who's spaciality is with feet & ankles saw no need for surgery, like fusing the joint!!? I would have refused to have this done.
Plan to be back on the roads, or more on softer surfaces soon.
victoria, b.c., canada, runner: I also have left foot issues that can not be corrected, this problem almost took me out of the game completely this year. Previously tried everything, barefoot running, foot exercises... the whole shebang. What has helped me a lot is running my evening runs in Nike Free shoes, not the super minimalist model, the next one up that has more cushioning. This has helped strengthen my foot I believe quite a bit. Give it a try, it seems to be working for me as I am still out there running everyday, sure it barks at me occasionally, but the alternative is not good for my mental being:)