Arkansas Runners- McDonnell Era

The Big Guy, can you post a couple more weeks of your training?

@Consiglio

If you could do it again, would have you taken off quicker not allowing the race to come back together? You had a great lead with Georgetown out of the hunt. My guess is that your 3:55 or 56 mile PR would have indicated you could have run the legs out of the other anchor legs, not relying on a late last lap effort. From my memory it would have been easier to beat Starr with a strength race than a kick. Plus, he was out of the race until it slowed and he snuck back into. I know woulda coulda shouldas does not matter but just wondering what you woulda done different.

Do Overs wrote:

@Consiglio

If you could do it again, would have you taken off quicker not allowing the race to come back together? You had a great lead with Georgetown out of the hunt. My guess is that your 3:55 or 56 mile PR would have indicated you could have run the legs out of the other anchor legs, not relying on a late last lap effort. From my memory it would have been easier to beat Starr with a strength race than a kick. Plus, he was out of the race until it slowed and he snuck back into. I know woulda coulda shouldas does not matter but just wondering what you woulda done different.

%%%%%%

some good insight above that I will comment on below. But first I must point out what a great race was run by so many people! 5 Teams ran times that would normally win. O'Reilly, Starr, Cheuriout, and their teams all ran great! Those three teams all beat the DMR world Record we had just set the year before ( where I did take off in 56.0 for the first lap and no one caught me). They actually gave winning watches to all three teams that year in 87, the first time they had ever done that, and I don't think they have done it since. Had 87 World Champion Abdi Bile run, with George Mason and been close, it would have been even more exciting ( and I would have had one more team ahead of me). So, congrats to all three teams especially Georgetown.

Anyway, as to the above, I had raced Starr in a 1500m in Knoxville 2 weeks before NCAA's in 86 and at 200m I was 4 places behind him ( he was leading) and at the finish I was one second ahead of him ( leading a razorback 1,2,3 sweep, me, Borge, Taylor). So, his finish did not overly scare me, as did Kip or Gerry's ( being a miler, we are all a bit conceited about our kicks :) We all think on any given day we will win in a sprint, it is our nature.

Anyways, leading up to the meet, I ran an 800m 6 days before that DMR in Fayetteville. Redwine was rabbiting for me and I thought I could PR. I woke up feeling sick, but ran anwyay. I dropped out at 300m, the first college race I ever dropped out of. felt like crap, physically and mentally. I went to John on Thursday still not feeling 100% and suggested that Gary Taylor move from lead off to Anchor and I take lead off. Gary is Mr. Penn Relays to this day and I thought would do fine anchoring ( he anchored the 4x1500m the next day and outkicked everybody getting it in third for the last leg and sprinting like a stud for the win). I pointed out that if he anchored he would potentially be on 3 winning DMR teams running 3 different legs! Anyway, John waited, but decided on me anchoring because I had outkicked Gary in a 1500m about 3 weeks before Penn both of us running 3:39 and he wanted Gary to Triple that weekend and Gary was also an incredible 1200m man.

So, anchor man I was. Looking back, I think John should have listened to me, but it was his decision. Anyway, I went into it with the intention of leaving it all out there. Like I said the year before, Gary, Roddie Haley and Espen Borge gave me a three second lead and I went out fast, no one caught me and we beat villanova's 10 year old world Record, so I had done it before. I have not watched this 87 race, ( I lived it, and truthfully don't really want to watch it ) but I remember getting the baton and going out hard, what I figured to be about 56 pace again ( keep in mind if you try this at home, if your mile PR is 3:55 and you try and go out and run that leading the whole way, with no splits and plenty of sharks who can key off you from behind, it is not that easy,..too fast and you pay, .. too slow and they catch you). So, I went out what I thought was hard and was astounded to see Kip pull up beside fairly quickly. He saw the look of absolute surprise on my face and said " hi Doug " which made me drop my jaw. Here I was going out hard, and this guy catches me quickly and has the balls to say hi. Well, tough to admit, but for the first time in a track race I got psyched out for 100 meters or so. I regrouped, the pace seemed fast to me and I became surprised when at 500m to go 'they' started picking it up. anyways, great race by the three guys who beat me, I think they all ran around 3:55 maybe faster. i was over 4 minutes, though not by much. Felt hard to me :)

A couple of razorbacks were pissed we lost, which is fine, it was my fault, I deserved the blame. The only other real anchor leg possibility was Gary, and, perhaps Falcon who had won the 10Kk on Thursday but we did not yet know how super fast he was going to be. i think those two guys would have done much better than me. So, to answer your question (if you are still here after this long post) I did try and run away from everyone, but when I couldn't I still thought my kick could have a fighting chance, since I got it ahead, and should be more rested. Didn't work out though.

As a side note, what great life experience to have. One year you anchor a world record, next year you are the goat. Makes your realize who your true friends are, and what life is about. I had never lost at Penn until that 87 DMR ( even won the steeple as a true freshman) and although it hurts to have lost it for the team, having to take responsibility for it made me more of a man. I really felt bad for Gary, Haley and Big Lo Brown, since they had worked so hard to get me a lead.

Anchoring at Penn is tough. I went 2 for 3 with one world Record. Would have been nice to have gone 3 for 3, but that's life!

What did Joe do after 1991?[/quote]

A lot of guys on here slamming Joe for not reaching his potential. Let me tell you about how tough and dedicated Joe was the year I roomed with him.

It was his second year in College, he was a sophomore in Cross, and a redshirt freshman indoors and out. He ran a great 7th at NCAA's in cross. Indoors he made NCAA's in the 3K but did not score. Outdoors he won the conference 5K but did not make NCAA's in any event. A pretty good year, but for a second year college guy, certainly no Robbie Andrews, Wheating, Earl Jones etc. He didn't even make NCAA outdoor! What was his potential then? or when he came out of high school a 4:08 miler?

BUT, Joe was more dedicated than any runner I have ever seen or been associated with. He never missed a morning run, went to bed early every night, never partied, I think he may have had a few beers after NCAA cross, but that was it. He would be in John's office almost everyday talking to him. He lived and breathed running and he was a plus 14 minute 5k guy! The guy wanted to be good more than anybody I have ever met.

Joe went on to have an amazing college career and was world class after college. I was there in the stands when he won the dream mile. That was 5 years after I roomed with him. What a transformation.

I think those that overly criticize do so for a number of reasons. It makes them feel good about there sub par careers one, and since they were never world class they have no idea what it is like to compete at the top level for any length of time, more or less year after year.

Does Joe Falcon make fun at Steve Scott for the 84 Olympics? Does Scott say Joe's career sucked? Does Jim Ryun say that Wholhuter never won the big one?

Tough to say Joe's career was not that good when you could not even get into the races he was winning.

Joe had an awesome career that most of us would love to have had, and is considered one of the Best Razorback distance runners ever, if not the best.

Thanks for this insightful post. Lots of us could be kinder,

By the way, Jeff is well.

Doug C.- that was a nice post; I think that it is well put - I am a good friend of Joe's and he loved Arkansas and being a Razorback. His time with you and the older teammates was a great experience for him - grew up an Air Force kid - he probably put way too much pressure on himself to please everyone. He is a good guy and doesn't deserve some of the "trash talk" from people who have never even met him. He loves Coach Mc and would run through a wall for him!!!!

sweet tempo wrote:

Thanks for this insightful post. Lots of us could be kinder,

By the way, Jeff is well.

Thanks sweet tempo. Jeff Johnson or Jeff Atkinson?

Doug, you are awesome!

I have seen no trash talk on this great thread regarding Falcon. I think all of us who watched him regard him as one of America's greatest talents. Great insight by Consiglio of how dedicated he was as well.

I will get bashed for saying this simce I wasnt around him but I always felt he put way too much pressure on himself and sometimes suffered from that. I never read or heard any explanation of what happened in the 1988 Olympic Trials finals of the 1500. He was outkicking everyone easily in the heats.

consider emailing me here ^

I just heard about Keith's passing. I'm so sorry. My regards to all his old Rummel and Arkansas teammates. I ran against him in Jr. AAU and in high school, always at state meets. I ran at Broadmoor in Baton Rouge (and went on the mediocre career at LSU), so we duked it out in the mile and 2-mile, plus XC. He had beautiful form.

Those are still vivid memories, although I prefer not to linger over him passing me in the final stretch of the 1600 at State my Senior year. At least I got him back in the 3200. We both would have run faster if we didn't have all that 1980's hair.

Matt Dobbins

Slidell, LA

Oh, but, but, World Class athletes are only that good because of an accident of birth.

Says it all.

Really enjoying this thread. Some great stories. Anyone have any good ones from the Lincoln/Cragg era? Also what is Daniel Lincoln doing now? Has he quit the professional ranks?

great thread....keep the memories flowing.

orthopaedics resident @ohsu

linfan wrote:

Really enjoying this thread. Some great stories. Anyone have any good ones from the Lincoln/Cragg era? Also what is Daniel Lincoln doing now? Has he quit the professional ranks?

007run wrote:

What a great running camp. Listening to McDonnell tell us stories like the time he beat Jim Ryun were incredible to hear in person.

well, kinda. jim ryun was a great miler and the race against ryun a 3200, according to one of the older guys who ocassionaly works meets with us at the Tyson. (He was in HS at lafayette - also melancon's hs - or ran with coach mac in college - I forget). Anyway, he tells of ryan doing 30 300's the day before the race and dropping out of the race coach mac refers to. That said, it would be more realistic to say they started the same race, seemingly using it as a workout if 30 300's were in play. Aside from all that, Coach Mac is still "da man" as a coach.

So we walk about criticizing people, and namely Falcon, but I'm not sure that stating the truth about someone's career is criticizing them. Some people feel Joe had more potential in him than a 3:49. This isn't chemistry or Math where there is one correct answer. The reason we all ran is to see how good we could be, and to say it's true that everyone lived up to their potential isn't reality.

I think it would be good to hear from some of the younger hogs out there, as someone stated, the Lincoln/Cragg era.

Doug, you seemed to get a little sensitive earlier about someone talking about you? Was that talking about your running, or talking about your trying to be an elder statesman?

You mentioned that you did a session of "weights followed by 8miler". Could you give some detail of the weight workout you did?

Thanks

Consiglio,

Thanks for giving some insight on Joe. I grew up in Missouri, and Joe was my running hero! I first saw all you 80s era Razorbacks run at the SMSU XC invite in Springfield, MO. I was a freshman in HS running for a small Missouri high school (Bolivar High School), so the it would have been the Fall of 1986. You guys swept the top 8 places. I remember you because I said, "who in the world is that really tall skinny dude?" My coach who ran for Central Missouri State University told me who you were. It was after seeing you guys totally dominate that I decided I wanted to be a Razorback. 3 yrs. later as a senior at the same XC meet in Springfield I ran 14:52 for 5k and coach Mac came up to me afterwards and said he had a scholarship for me if I wanted to come run for him at Arkansas. That sealed the deal and the next fall (1990) I was in Fayetteville training my ass off with some of the best runners in the U.S. and world. Thanks again for sharing Doug.

Dewayne Miner