Level of competition is not the #1 determinant, as I showed. If it was, then no WR race would matter. Times also matter and Kiplimo was far better in that aspect. Trying to argue one was better than the other is futile. Also, your point on World XC being held in January has no bearing on Kiplimo’s race. Which track athlete, were it held in March, would challenge Kiplimo? He is simply the greatest XC runner since Bekele and almost as good as him factoring in how many championships there have been the last 7 years.
Of course level of competition is the #1 determinant when evaluating the quality of a win. Racing is primarily about competition, not time. Here's an example:
The NCAA outdoor 5000 championship was won in 13:20 last year. Hocker won USAs in 13:26. Only an idiot or hater would try to claim the NCAA win was better just because it was faster. Hocker's win was obviously better because it came against a higher level of competition.
Hocker has more wins against higher level competition than Kiplimo does.
Also, your point on World XC being held in January has no bearing on Kiplimo’s race. Which track athlete, were it held in March, would challenge Kiplimo?
Nobody, of course!
It is hilarious to suggest that if only World XC were in the summer, the "track guys" like 5/10 track "World Champions" Cole Hocker and Jimmy Gressier could take down Kiplimo.
😂😂😂😂😂
He literally beat "World Champion" Gressier by 1 minute and 18 seconds. 'But but but it was January, Gressier just wasn't race-sharp...' 🤡
"World Champion" Hocker would have been further back still, or another of his DNFs.
What happened the last time Kiplimo tried racing the best track guys during the track racing season? Oh, that's right, he got 8th. Eighth!
Kiplimo hasn't had a road race finish lower than second IN HIS LIFE.
Kiplimo ran 56:42 in 2025.
Kiplimo just won the biggest fall marathon in 2025.
Kiplimo then turned around and beat the winner of WC 10,000 in a 10k XC race, winning world XC.
Hocker... entered a concierge paced two-mile against has-been and never-was runners, and was too weak to go with his own personally selected pace. He hasn't run an impressive time since his 7:23 in Jan 2025... six seconds of the WR while Kiplimo is a WR breaker.
Kiplimo only did 4 road races last year. If he was brave enough to mix in some track races, he'd finish worse than second.
Kiplimo's 56:42 was aided and invalidated as a WR.
Kiplimo didn't even run the fastest marathon of the fall.
Congrats to Kiplimo for running so well in the kiddie pool and over the toy alligators!
It is hilarious to suggest that if only World XC were in the summer, the "track guys" like 5/10 track "World Champions" Cole Hocker and Jimmy Gressier could take down Kiplimo.
😂😂😂😂😂
He literally beat "World Champion" Gressier by 1 minute and 18 seconds. 'But but but it was January, Gressier just wasn't race-sharp...' 🤡
"World Champion" Hocker would have been further back still, or another of his DNFs.
What happened the last time Kiplimo tried racing the best track guys during the track racing season?
Kiplimo had LONG ago focused on the roads by 2024, year #6 of his half marathon career.
Kiplimo is taking down the best fields for the biggest money on the road. Hocker is free to go test him.
Jakob, who has three 5000 championships to Hocker's one, tried. He raced Kiplimo at a half in 2024, and lost by ... four minutes.
Then there is also XC, where the best from all distances and disciplines have always met to settle who's king. Let's see how that went for the "big boys of track" in 2026...
Gressier, the reigning WC 10,000 champion who was 1.03s behind Hocker in the 5,000 and who Hocker couldn't touch in a longer race, DID race Kiplimo in World XC, and finished 1 minute and 18 seconds behind him. (And Gressier was clear that he was VERY prepared for the race; the French team brought their best and by their own statement were desperate for a team medal.)
If Gressier couldn't sniff Kiplimo over 10k, Hocker sure as hell can't.
Should Kiplimo come down from winning $100,000 in the Chicago marathon and chasing the most prestigious world record (/payday) in the sport, to race Hocker and Gressier for peanuts in track 5,000s and 10,000s?
He could, and the 12:40 vs 12:57 PBs tell you exactly what would happen. But the track 5,000 and 10,000 are watered down and a waste of time for someone like Kiplimo. The best (guys on the level of Kiplimo, Kiptum, Wanjiru) just don't seriously pursue these no-payday events any more, they go to the roads as soon as possible. (Which in turn leads to even less money in the long track races, the special olympics of distance running.)
Guys on a lower level than that, guys like Farah, Fisher, Hocker, Gressier, can scoop up weak-event track medals, but we all see what happens when the b-team tries out our for the big leagues and run a major marathon.
Kiplimo isn't ducking; he's exactly where the MONEY is, and where ALL the big dogs go...if they can. (The GOATs Geb, Tergat, Bekele did. Others among your precious "track guys" like Mo, Tadese and Rupp of course tried their best, with limited success compared to their 5/10 track "medals.")
It's like saying Lewis Hamilton "ducked" by racing F1 and not NASCAR. 🤡
Kiplimo didn't even run the fastest marathon of the fall.
Hocker is free to go test him Kiplimo where the big dogs race, FOR MONEY, on the roads.
(Also, Hocker didn't remotely run the fastest 5000 of the year.🤡 12:57 is like a 59-60 marathon, a B-list time at best.)
There is no reason for Kiplimo come down from winning $100,000 in the Chicago marathon and chasing the most prestigious world record (/payday) in the sport, to race Hocker and Gressier for peanuts in track 5,000s and 10,000s.
Jakob, who has three 5000 championships to Hocker's one, tried to race Kiplimo. He raced Kiplimo at a half in 2024, and lost by ... four minutes.
Gressier tried to race Kiplimo. The reigning WC 10,000 champion, who was 1.03s behind Hocker in the WC 5,000 and who Hocker couldn't touch in a longer race, DID race Kiplimo in World XC, and finished 1 minute and 18 seconds behind him.
12:40 vs 12:57 PBs tell you exactly what would happen if Kiplimo raced Hocker in a track or road 5000. But the track 5,000 and 10,000 are watered down and a waste of time for someone like Kiplimo. For many years now, the best (guys on the level of Kiplimo, Kiptum, Wanjiru) just don't seriously pursue these no-payday events any more, they go to the roads as soon as possible. (Which in turn leads to even less money and less interest in the long track races, the special olympics of distance running, left to the weaker Hocker, Fisher and Gressier types, or Farah and Rupp who were better but couldn't challenge that level the marathon.)
Level of competition is not the #1 determinant, as I showed. If it was, then no WR race would matter. Times also matter and Kiplimo was far better in that aspect. Trying to argue one was better than the other is futile. Also, your point on World XC being held in January has no bearing on Kiplimo’s race. Which track athlete, were it held in March, would challenge Kiplimo? He is simply the greatest XC runner since Bekele and almost as good as him factoring in how many championships there have been the last 7 years.
Of course level of competition is the #1 determinant when evaluating the quality of a win. Racing is primarily about competition, not time. Here's an example:
The NCAA outdoor 5000 championship was won in 13:20 last year. Hocker won USAs in 13:26. Only an idiot or hater would try to claim the NCAA win was better just because it was faster. Hocker's win was obviously better because it came against a higher level of competition.
Hocker has more wins against higher level competition than Kiplimo does.
That’s a false equivalency. Are you seriously trying to compare a college championship where most runners are junior student athletes to a national championship? And then trying to use that as an example for why two prestigious world championships are not the same? Try again please.
Anyways, I brought up times because of the example you brought up between Millrose and the Chicago marathon. While Hocker faced guys who had lots of success in the past and Kiplimo didn’t, Kiplimo ran 2:02 which is miles better than 8:07. So there is no significant argument for which is better. You have yet to refute the context behind Kiplimo’s third XC win as well which holds more symbolic value that Hocker winning his first 5000m title. In a debate about the best distance runner, XC greatness is fair game and is part of why Bekele is the GOAT while Farah and Kipchoge aren’t. Hocker is great but there is no fair argument to put him above others just yet, maybe after this indoor season that will change.
Anyways, I brought up times because of the example you brought up between Millrose and the Chicago marathon. While Hocker faced guys who had lots of success in the past and Kiplimo didn’t, Kiplimo ran 2:02 which is miles better than 8:07.
You're exaggerating the quality of 2:02:23. It's nearly 2 minutes behind the WR. It's not a top 10 marathon time. Kipchoge and Bekele ran faster as old men with grey hair.
Kiplimo's 2:02 and Hocker's indoor 8:07 hold the same spot on the all time list: 11th.
Anyways, I brought up times because of the example you brought up between Millrose and the Chicago marathon. While Hocker faced guys who had lots of success in the past and Kiplimo didn’t, Kiplimo ran 2:02 which is miles better than 8:07.
You're exaggerating the quality of 2:02:23. It's nearly 2 minutes behind the WR. It's not a top 10 marathon time. Kipchoge and Bekele ran faster as old men with grey hair.
Kiplimo's 2:02 and Hocker's indoor 8:07 hold the same spot on the all time list: 11th.
First off, comparing an Olympic distance (the Marathon) to an off distance (2 Mile) is a logical fallacy as one is rarely run while the other is possibly the most understood distance to the general public. So being 11th on an Indoor 2 Mile list is inferior to 11th on the Marathon all time list. Furthermore, Indoor running is proving to be as fast as outdoor running for longer distances. The world lead in the 3k and 5k last year was by Grant Fisher indoors. So just narrowing it down to an indoor only list is fallacious. If we include all 2 Mile performances, Hocker’s was just the 21st fastest time ever. So he is lower on an all time list in an off distance while Kiplimo ran higher in an Olympic distance. Kiplimo’s Chicago time was clearly far superior to Hocker’s. We can go by the points table too. Kiplimo’s was 1272 while Hocker’s based on the outdoor tables (because nobody gives a crap about the indoor ones) is only 1224. Your point on Bekele and Kipchoge also doesn’t have anything to do with the argument.
I’m glad to see though that you have conveniently left out the rest of my post. Are you now conceding?
First off, comparing an Olympic distance (the Marathon) to an off distance (2 Mile) is a logical fallacy as one is rarely run while the other is possibly the most understood distance to the general public. So being 11th on an Indoor 2 Mile list is inferior to 11th on the Marathon all time list. Furthermore, Indoor running is proving to be as fast as outdoor running for longer distances. The world lead in the 3k and 5k last year was by Grant Fisher indoors. So just narrowing it down to an indoor only list is fallacious. If we include all 2 Mile performances, Hocker’s was just the 21st fastest time ever. So he is lower on an all time list in an off distance while Kiplimo ran higher in an Olympic distance. Kiplimo’s Chicago time was clearly far superior to Hocker’s. We can go by the points table too. Kiplimo’s was 1272 while Hocker’s based on the outdoor tables (because nobody gives a crap about the indoor ones) is only 1224. Your point on Bekele and Kipchoge also doesn’t have anything to do with the argument.
I’m glad to see though that you have conveniently left out the rest of my post. Are you now conceding?
Holy cow, you have a lot to learn. When comparing the all time lists for two events, it's about quality not quantity. It makes no difference if the marathon is understood by general public hobby joggers who shuffle their way to a 4 and 5 hour finish times. It means little if most of the professional runners who've done the marathon historically are those who are past their prime or not good enough to ever win global championships on the track (like Kiplimo).
Look at the indoor 2 mile list. It's filled with legends of the sport. Guys who dominated, won gold, and ran the 2 mile indoors while in their prime: Bekele, Farah, Gebrselassie, El Guerrouj. The Mount Rushmore! The marathon list doesn't compare. It's a list of guys who were either past their prime when they ran it or never accomplished much on the track.
You should be embarrassed that Kiplimo can't beat times that Kipchoge and Bekele ran as old men with grey hair.
All the indoor distance records are slower than the outdoor records, so it's nonsensical to combine the lists. Compare apples with applies, not apples with oranges. Hocker's time is 11th on the indoor list, same as Kiplimo's.
You're lucky I even bothered to entertain your childish irrelevant point about times when quality of competition is what matters most. Hocker clearly wasn't going for the record at Millrose when the race started. He ran to win, and that's what he did, against a higher quality field than Kiplimo beat in Chicago.
You have yet to refute the context behind Kiplimo’s third XC win as well which holds more symbolic value that Hocker winning his first 5000m title. In a debate about the best distance runner, XC greatness is fair game and is part of why Bekele is the GOAT while Farah and Kipchoge aren’t. Hocker is great but there is no fair argument to put him above others just yet, maybe after this indoor season that will change.
Addressing this faulty statement too since you asked. If you wanna talk symbolic value, that's another point in favor of Hocker because he proved himself in a new event. Most people here thought Hocker had no chance of winning gold in the 5000. Then he did it! Going out of his comfort zone to win gold in a new event is more impressive than winning another gold in a familiar event.
First off, comparing an Olympic distance (the Marathon) to an off distance (2 Mile) is a logical fallacy as one is rarely run while the other is possibly the most understood distance to the general public. So being 11th on an Indoor 2 Mile list is inferior to 11th on the Marathon all time list. Furthermore, Indoor running is proving to be as fast as outdoor running for longer distances. The world lead in the 3k and 5k last year was by Grant Fisher indoors. So just narrowing it down to an indoor only list is fallacious. If we include all 2 Mile performances, Hocker’s was just the 21st fastest time ever. So he is lower on an all time list in an off distance while Kiplimo ran higher in an Olympic distance. Kiplimo’s Chicago time was clearly far superior to Hocker’s. We can go by the points table too. Kiplimo’s was 1272 while Hocker’s based on the outdoor tables (because nobody gives a crap about the indoor ones) is only 1224. Your point on Bekele and Kipchoge also doesn’t have anything to do with the argument.
I’m glad to see though that you have conveniently left out the rest of my post. Are you now conceding?
Holy cow, you have a lot to learn. When comparing the all time lists for two events, it's about quality not quantity. It makes no difference if the marathon is understood by general public hobby joggers who shuffle their way to a 4 and 5 hour finish times. It means little if most of the professional runners who've done the marathon historically are those who are past their prime or not good enough to ever win global championships on the track (like Kiplimo).
Look at the indoor 2 mile list. It's filled with legends of the sport. Guys who dominated, won gold, and ran the 2 mile indoors while in their prime: Bekele, Farah, Gebrselassie, El Guerrouj. The Mount Rushmore! The marathon list doesn't compare. It's a list of guys who were either past their prime when they ran it or never accomplished much on the track.
You should be embarrassed that Kiplimo can't beat times that Kipchoge and Bekele ran as old men with grey hair.
All the indoor distance records are slower than the outdoor records, so it's nonsensical to combine the lists. Compare apples with applies, not apples with oranges. Hocker's time is 11th on the indoor list, same as Kiplimo's.
You're lucky I even bothered to entertain your childish irrelevant point about times when quality of competition is what matters most. Hocker clearly wasn't going for the record at Millrose when the race started. He ran to win, and that's what he did, against a higher quality field than Kiplimo beat in Chicago.
Wow, I hope you realize that the more ad hominem’s you type, the less convincing your point is.
Please realize that nobody cares really about the 2 mile. Every single runner you listed who ran it clearly didn’t care about it. Bekele ran 8:04 which is pedestrian. El Guerrouj ran 8:06 even though he ran 7:23 over 3k. That’s the problem when you start listing out names, you ignore the context. Anything over 8 minutes is just not that good in the grand scheme of scheme of things, doesn’t matter who is on the all time list. Your legends don’t care. Hocker can’t even run faster than them.
Also your assessment of the marathon is extremely exaggerated. There were plenty of all time greats who ran the Marathon. Just look through the list of Olympic champions and World Record holders. It’s not that hard. Is there a list for that for the Two Mile? Also, it doesn’t help your case that the current world record is literally better than Jakob’s.
No, it’s perfectly valid to use all results, indoors and out, when determining placements on the all time list. Indoor Tracks now are as fast as outdoors and as I have shown through Fisher, some athletes are more interested in running fast indoors than outdoors due to controlled variables (no wind, temperature, altitude etc). Hocker’s best times have come from indoor running but that’s just because that is the only time he has focused on running fast. Context matters here.
Listen McRunnin (Yes, it’s obvious who you are you clown). No amount of disrespect to the Marathon is going to change the fact that Hocker is not the best in the world. Trying to go back to results from 2024 doesn’t make sense for who is the current best. If you tried to do that, then you’d have to include Jakob Ingebrigtsen who destroys both Kiplimo and Hocker in results. But then if you just factor in results from the last year, Hocker isn’t great enough to topple Gressier or Kiplimo.
You have yet to refute the context behind Kiplimo’s third XC win as well which holds more symbolic value that Hocker winning his first 5000m title. In a debate about the best distance runner, XC greatness is fair game and is part of why Bekele is the GOAT while Farah and Kipchoge aren’t. Hocker is great but there is no fair argument to put him above others just yet, maybe after this indoor season that will change.
Addressing this faulty statement too since you asked. If you wanna talk symbolic value, that's another point in favor of Hocker because he proved himself in a new event. Most people here thought Hocker had no chance of winning gold in the 5000. Then he did it! Going out of his comfort zone to win gold in a new event is more impressive than winning another gold in a familiar event.
So winning a gold is another event is more impressive that winning almost as many World XC titles as the GOAT distance runner when equating for time between championships? Lol.
Kiplimo fans have to reconcile that he was basically Asafa Powell on the track. Fast times, “theoretically” the best 10,000m or even 5,000m runner but in terms of championship performances just didn’t get it done. Didn’t even try to double. Now the roads allow him a different lane to avoid some of his weaknesses, but considering his consecutive losses to Sabastian Sawe we have to see if he is actually a great champion on the roads. Or just a guy who benefited from John Korir basically losing his mind.
That is the point. DuPlantis shows the weakness of the claim that a runner you say is number one in his sport loses more than he wins and has no world records. A pretty low bar you set there for "number one". DuPlantis would clear it on one leg.
Your point is stupid because Mondo isn't a distance runner. Unless you think he can beat Hocker in a distance race, Mondo is completely irrelevant to this thread.
I knew the comparison between a real winner and a pretender would be over your head.
DuPlantis makes a mockery of the claim that Hocker is number one at anything.
How many professional and aspiring professional pole vaulters are there in the world? How about mid/long-distance runners?
You are stupid, and you know it.
Hocker seems to lose to a lot of aspiring distance runners. He has more losses than wins. That's a fact. Mondo shows what a truly dominant athlete actually is.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
Kiplimo fans have to reconcile that he was basically Asafa Powell on the track. Fast times, “theoretically” the best 10,000m or even 5,000m runner but in terms of championship performances just didn’t get it done. Didn’t even try to double. Now the roads allow him a different lane to avoid some of his weaknesses, but considering his consecutive losses to Sabastian Sawe we have to see if he is actually a great champion on the roads. Or just a guy who benefited from John Korir basically losing his mind.
I think Kiplimo is the best XC runner currently and the 2nd best Marathoner. Hocker is maybe the 2nd best 5000m runner but he isn’t clear, and in the 1500m not even top 10 currently. That’s the deciding factor for me.
Wow, I hope you realize that the more ad hominem’s you type, the less convincing your point is.
Please realize that nobody cares really about the 2 mile. Every single runner you listed who ran it clearly didn’t care about it. Bekele ran 8:04 which is pedestrian. El Guerrouj ran 8:06 even though he ran 7:23 over 3k. That’s the problem when you start listing out names, you ignore the context. Anything over 8 minutes is just not that good in the grand scheme of scheme of things, doesn’t matter who is on the all time list. Your legends don’t care. Hocker can’t even run faster than them.
Also your assessment of the marathon is extremely exaggerated. There were plenty of all time greats who ran the Marathon. Just look through the list of Olympic champions and World Record holders. It’s not that hard. Is there a list for that for the Two Mile? Also, it doesn’t help your case that the current world record is literally better than Jakob’s.
No, it’s perfectly valid to use all results, indoors and out, when determining placements on the all time list. Indoor Tracks now are as fast as outdoors and as I have shown through Fisher, some athletes are more interested in running fast indoors than outdoors due to controlled variables (no wind, temperature, altitude etc). Hocker’s best times have come from indoor running but that’s just because that is the only time he has focused on running fast. Context matters here.
Listen McRunnin (Yes, it’s obvious who you are you clown). No amount of disrespect to the Marathon is going to change the fact that Hocker is not the best in the world. Trying to go back to results from 2024 doesn’t make sense for who is the current best. If you tried to do that, then you’d have to include Jakob Ingebrigtsen who destroys both Kiplimo and Hocker in results. But then if you just factor in results from the last year, Hocker isn’t great enough to topple Gressier or Kiplimo.
Holy cow, your feelings must be as soft and delicate as winter snowflakes if you're gonna try to get all personal like that.
Your arguments are desperately inconsistent. First you ignore the context that Hocker ran for the win at Millrose instead of running for time. Then you turn around and talk about context of who you think cared and didn't care. Did Hocker look like he cared about running fast at Millrose when he didn't go with the pacemaker?
You say we shouldn't go back to 2024, but you've been talking about Kiplimo's cross country wins going back to 2023. At least be consistent. Throwing argumentative spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks doesn't work.
The criteria for who is #1 right now are who has the best current titles and who has the best current form. Everything else is just noise.
Your point is stupid because Mondo isn't a distance runner. Unless you think he can beat Hocker in a distance race, Mondo is completely irrelevant to this thread.
I knew the comparison between a real winner and a pretender would be over your head.
If you're trying to bring a pole vaulter into the conversation, you've conceded that Hocker is the #1 distance runner right now.
I think Kiplimo is the best XC runner currently and the 2nd best Marathoner. Hocker is maybe the 2nd best 5000m runner but he isn’t clear, and in the 1500m not even top 10 currently. That’s the deciding factor for me.
Not sure why he wouldn’t be top 10 in the 1500m. It’s just incomplete at the moment because he hasn’t raced many since GST Philly. Let’s see how he does in Winston-Salem, USAs and World Indoors. Since the beginning of 2024 he has a grand total of one 1500/mile finish below 4th, and only one that was 4th. The rest are 1st, 2nd or 3rd.
