In two of Kipketer's wr races (including his indoor record) he led at the bell, as did Rudisha. But you ignore the numerous other earlier records in the event in the last 60 years I gave that did not have a pacemaker.
Imagine being so ignorant and still refusing to accept facts. You are something else...
Imagine being so ignorant and still refusing to accept facts. You are something else...
For many pages through this thread I enjoyed the discussion, presented my arguments and shared facts and opinions with education.
At the first few pages I thought some of you were being too harsh with "Armstronglivs". Needless to say I was not familiar with him from other threads as I don't post in LetsRun very often.
It is clear to me after these last posts that "Armstronglivs" is not here to debate or present arguments - he is here to lie and deny facts. Now I understand those from earlier pages - opinions are opinions, as controversial as they are, but intellectual dishonesty must be pointed and exposed. I am not sure "Armostronglivs" lies and denies facts of concrete reality for fun or due to a mental condition. In either case it is sad to witness.
Pompous prat. Since you think the facts are on your side when has Ovett run faster than 1:44?
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
I'm not ignoring anything. I pointed on the wrong "facts" which you have given - as so so often.
The 7 800m WRs from 1:42.33 to 1:41.01 all had pacemakers - I already have given you the numbers how far the PM actually went.
Kipketer has not led at the bell in Stockholm, Zürich and Cologne. Rudisha has not led at the bell in Berlin and Rieti. You are wrong - as almost always.
Just checked some earlier records:.
For sure the 1968 and 1976 Olympics as well as the 1972 US Trials didn't had a pacemaker.
The winner didn't took the lead until
1968 Doubell: 70 meters to go
1972 Wottle: 60 meters to go
1976 Juantorena: 320 meters to go
Fiasconaro in 1973 (1:43.7) led at the bell.
Rudisha in 2012 (1:40.91) immediately went to the front and led the whole race.
You left out Ryun's record in '66. Coe's indoor wr was led from the front. And Kipketer's indoor wr.
This post was edited 2 minutes after it was posted.
Took a look at this thread for the first time in two weeks - I wondered why it was still going. I should have known, Armstronglivs and his OCD strike again. He can’t resist being goaded.
For many pages through this thread I enjoyed the discussion, presented my arguments and shared facts and opinions with education.
At the first few pages I thought some of you were being too harsh with "Armstronglivs". Needless to say I was not familiar with him from other threads as I don't post in LetsRun very often.
It is clear to me after these last posts that "Armstronglivs" is not here to debate or present arguments - he is here to lie and deny facts. Now I understand those from earlier pages - opinions are opinions, as controversial as they are, but intellectual dishonesty must be pointed and exposed. I am not sure "Armostronglivs" lies and denies facts of concrete reality for fun or due to a mental condition. In either case it is sad to witness.
Pompous prat. Since you think the facts are on your side when has Ovett run faster than 1:44?
I never claimed Ovett ran faster than 1:44 because obviously he didn't. The discussion has never been about that and you know it.
You are the most dishonest individual I have seen posting in these threads and your intellectual dishonest will keep being exposed.
All 800m WR set since 1979 were set with pace makers. Rudisha's 1:40.91 the only exception and there's a reason why many consider that the greatest track performance ever.
Your arguments to counter that have been:
- Lying about World Records that were set with pace makers -- you claimed they were not and you are wrong.
- Bringing Kipketer's indoor WR as if that was enough to validate your case. It is not - that and Rudisha's 1:40.91 are the exceptions to the rule that is valid since at least 1979 - and you've been provided with examples not only of the WRs themselves, but many other WR attempts that were done with pace makers.
- Completely ignoring all these other examples you have been given, and trying to divert the discussion to some older records, including some 1,500m races.
Here are more facts for you. All 1,500m WR since at least Ovett's 3:30.77 in Rieti were set with pace makers. All of them.
You obviously lack knowledge of track & field so go check for the races instead of lying as you have done for the 800m races.
These include:
- Ovett's run in Rieti in 1983: his 3:30 WR when he was clearly not anymore at his peak. This could only be achieved due to a great pace maker work that took him quite smoothly through 1,000m
- Cram WR in 1985 - the only example in the list where pace making could clearly have been much better.
- Said Aouita WR
- Morcelli's first WR
- Morcelli's second WR - two pace makers employed to take Morceli until ~900m
- El Guerrouj's 3:26.00 - perfect work from the pace makers until ~1,200m !!
Do i need to continue?
El Guerrouj and Noah Ngeny had quality pace making for the #1 and #2 all time mile performances.
Morcelli's 3:44 as well - not to mention his attempt to break his own WR in Zurich in 95' where he ran 3:45 pushed until over 1,000;
Coe's 3:47 mile WR, pushed until over 1,000;
Ovett in Koblenz 81, great work from the pacers especially Robinson with a great third lap.
Again you're provided with tons of evidence -- will you choose to keep in denial? will you choose to keep lying?
trying to divert and point exceptions to the rule won't work here. The vast majority of the WR and WR attempts for the races that are relevant to this thread - 800/1500m/Mile have been achieved in set-up races with the aid of pace makers, usually more than 1!
Stop lying and be honest with yourself and with others here.
This post was edited 5 minutes after it was posted.
1978 2 miles when he shadowed Rono until the straight before easing past him smiling and waving.
1980 1500m Koblenz when he did just enough to win and felt it must have been a considerably slower time and was shocked when he saw the worls record time.
Both races were close to perfect for Ovett.
In the 2 Miles he had a PM with Rono until 100m to go. He could finish with a time worth around 7:38 for 3000m (WR 7:32.1) and slower than the indoor WR. Great performance from Ovett which might have been very close to his limit.
In the 1500m he followed the PM until 970m. Immediately after the PM went out, he looked behind for some help. Then his goor friend Thomas Wessinghage took the lead and helped Ovett until 100m to go. He managed to finish 0.22 seconds ahead of Wessinghage. Again, a close to perfect race for him which again might have been very close to his limit.
All this rumour he just "jogged" all his great races is complete nonsense.
I'm not ignoring anything. I pointed on the wrong "facts" which you have given - as so so often.
The 7 800m WRs from 1:42.33 to 1:41.01 all had pacemakers - I already have given you the numbers how far the PM actually went.
Kipketer has not led at the bell in Stockholm, Zürich and Cologne. Rudisha has not led at the bell in Berlin and Rieti. You are wrong - as almost always.
You repeatedly ignore the examples I gave of runners setting wrs since '66 without pacemakers - Ryun, Doubell, Wottle, Juantorena. To do so would completely undercut your argument of the necessity of a designated pacemaker for a fast time, instead of a merely fast race. You also ignore Kipketer's indoor wr when he led throughout from the front and Rudisha's record in London. That is quite apart from another of Kipketer's and Rudisha's records where they each front-ran for the second part of the race.
But if a pacemaker is a necessity for a record or a fast time, what is the lap time needed? 49, 50, 51, 52? And what proves definitively that this cannot occur in a race unless it has a pacemaker and is run as a "time-trial"? If such times have been recorded in races without a pacemaker it completely negates your argument of the necessity of a pacemaker.
I don't ignore anything.
I have not said a single word to what you claim here I did - your lying never stops.
Took a look at this thread for the first time in two weeks - I wondered why it was still going. I should have known, Armstronglivs and his OCD strike again. He can’t resist being goaded.
So I'm not being debated, only "goaded"? You've correctly apprised that the other posters are more concerned with getting a response from me than discussing the topic of the thread. Like you.
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
You left out Ryun's record in '66. Coe's indoor wr was led from the front. And Kipketer's indoor wr.
He doesn't know that both Coe and Kipketer have set two WIRs.
In the 1:46.0, Coe led from 200m on. In the 1:44.91, he has had a PM up to 500m. Kipketer in both his records led almost the whole race.
Not sure about Ryun, but I don't think he led at the bell.
I do know that Kipketer and Rudisha set two wrs. (3 in Kipketer's case - one indoors). But in one of each of their world marks they pretty much led from the bell. But no one has yet explained what is the time a pacemaker is required to run for the first lap and has that time only been achievable by a pacemaker. Rudisha Kipketer, Juantorena, and Coe have shown not. Ryun also was hardly "paced" for a 53x first lap.
So what is a "paced" 800 time as distinct from one that isn't?
Pompous prat. Since you think the facts are on your side when has Ovett run faster than 1:44?
I never claimed Ovett ran faster than 1:44 because obviously he didn't. The discussion has never been about that and you know it.
You are the most dishonest individual I have seen posting in these threads and your intellectual dishonest will keep being exposed.
All 800m WR set since 1979 were set with pace makers. Rudisha's 1:40.91 the only exception and there's a reason why many consider that the greatest track performance ever.
Your arguments to counter that have been:
- Lying about World Records that were set with pace makers -- you claimed they were not and you are wrong.
- Bringing Kipketer's indoor WR as if that was enough to validate your case. It is not - that and Rudisha's 1:40.91 are the exceptions to the rule that is valid since at least 1979 - and you've been provided with examples not only of the WRs themselves, but many other WR attempts that were done with pace makers.
- Completely ignoring all these other examples you have been given, and trying to divert the discussion to some older records, including some 1,500m races.
Here are more facts for you. All 1,500m WR since at least Ovett's 3:30.77 in Rieti were set with pace makers. All of them.
You obviously lack knowledge of track & field so go check for the races instead of lying as you have done for the 800m races.
These include:
- Ovett's run in Rieti in 1983: his 3:30 WR when he was clearly not anymore at his peak. This could only be achieved due to a great pace maker work that took him quite smoothly through 1,000m
- Cram WR in 1985 - the only example in the list where pace making could clearly have been much better.
- Said Aouita WR
- Morcelli's first WR
- Morcelli's second WR - two pace makers employed to take Morceli until ~900m
- El Guerrouj's 3:26.00 - perfect work from the pace makers until ~1,200m !!
Do i need to continue?
El Guerrouj and Noah Ngeny had quality pace making for the #1 and #2 all time mile performances.
Morcelli's 3:44 as well - not to mention his attempt to break his own WR in Zurich in 95' where he ran 3:45 pushed until over 1,000;
Coe's 3:47 mile WR, pushed until over 1,000;
Ovett in Koblenz 81, great work from the pacers especially Robinson with a great third lap.
Again you're provided with tons of evidence -- will you choose to keep in denial? will you choose to keep lying?
trying to divert and point exceptions to the rule won't work here. The vast majority of the WR and WR attempts for the races that are relevant to this thread - 800/1500m/Mile have been achieved in set-up races with the aid of pace makers, usually more than 1!
Stop lying and be honest with yourself and with others here.
More verbosity. None of what you say establishes for a fact what Ovett could have run - and that is the point of the thread. Faster than 1:44 isn't fact - no other facts you quote show it is - it can only remain speculation. You can't tell the difference. But what is also fact is that not all 800 records or fast times have been set with pacemakers. So they aren't a necessity.
This post was edited 48 seconds after it was posted.
You repeatedly ignore the examples I gave of runners setting wrs since '66 without pacemakers - Ryun, Doubell, Wottle, Juantorena. To do so would completely undercut your argument of the necessity of a designated pacemaker for a fast time, instead of a merely fast race. You also ignore Kipketer's indoor wr when he led throughout from the front and Rudisha's record in London. That is quite apart from another of Kipketer's and Rudisha's records where they each front-ran for the second part of the race.
But if a pacemaker is a necessity for a record or a fast time, what is the lap time needed? 49, 50, 51, 52? And what proves definitively that this cannot occur in a race unless it has a pacemaker and is run as a "time-trial"? If such times have been recorded in races without a pacemaker it completely negates your argument of the necessity of a pacemaker.
I don't ignore anything.
I have not said a single word to what you claim here I did - your lying never stops.
Yet you just duck what I said above. You can't answer it.
I never claimed Ovett ran faster than 1:44 because obviously he didn't. The discussion has never been about that and you know it.
You are the most dishonest individual I have seen posting in these threads and your intellectual dishonest will keep being exposed.
All 800m WR set since 1979 were set with pace makers. Rudisha's 1:40.91 the only exception and there's a reason why many consider that the greatest track performance ever.
Your arguments to counter that have been:
- Lying about World Records that were set with pace makers -- you claimed they were not and you are wrong.
- Bringing Kipketer's indoor WR as if that was enough to validate your case. It is not - that and Rudisha's 1:40.91 are the exceptions to the rule that is valid since at least 1979 - and you've been provided with examples not only of the WRs themselves, but many other WR attempts that were done with pace makers.
- Completely ignoring all these other examples you have been given, and trying to divert the discussion to some older records, including some 1,500m races.
Here are more facts for you. All 1,500m WR since at least Ovett's 3:30.77 in Rieti were set with pace makers. All of them.
You obviously lack knowledge of track & field so go check for the races instead of lying as you have done for the 800m races.
These include:
- Ovett's run in Rieti in 1983: his 3:30 WR when he was clearly not anymore at his peak. This could only be achieved due to a great pace maker work that took him quite smoothly through 1,000m
- Cram WR in 1985 - the only example in the list where pace making could clearly have been much better.
- Said Aouita WR
- Morcelli's first WR
- Morcelli's second WR - two pace makers employed to take Morceli until ~900m
- El Guerrouj's 3:26.00 - perfect work from the pace makers until ~1,200m !!
Do i need to continue?
El Guerrouj and Noah Ngeny had quality pace making for the #1 and #2 all time mile performances.
Morcelli's 3:44 as well - not to mention his attempt to break his own WR in Zurich in 95' where he ran 3:45 pushed until over 1,000;
Coe's 3:47 mile WR, pushed until over 1,000;
Ovett in Koblenz 81, great work from the pacers especially Robinson with a great third lap.
Again you're provided with tons of evidence -- will you choose to keep in denial? will you choose to keep lying?
trying to divert and point exceptions to the rule won't work here. The vast majority of the WR and WR attempts for the races that are relevant to this thread - 800/1500m/Mile have been achieved in set-up races with the aid of pace makers, usually more than 1!
Stop lying and be honest with yourself and with others here.
More verbosity. None of what you say establishes for a fact what Ovett could have run - and that is the point of the thread. Faster than 1:44 isn't fact - no other facts you quote show it is - it can only remain speculation. You can't tell the difference. But what is also fact is that not all 800 records or fast times have been set with pacemakers. So they aren't a necessity.
Of course it is speculation. Is this a joke? That's why we've been discussing about his potential over 10+ pages. It is not a fact - it is speculation and you look at evidence to speculate.
You've been proved about the strong co-relation between pace makers and running fast. You pointing to exceptions doesn't change that.
And please, go at least fact check and learn about the subject you're discussing otherwise you look like a fool as you've been constantly doing here.
One thing is to ignore the evidence and suggest Ovett's max potential was 1:43.5
Another is to constantly deny reality and spread false information.
Once again in one of your last posts you bring false information. No, Kipketer didn't set three WR and one of them indoors.
He set the outdoor WR 3 times (the first equalling Seb Coe's 1:41.73) and the indoor WR twice, these two marks during the same week.
More verbosity. None of what you say establishes for a fact what Ovett could have run - and that is the point of the thread. Faster than 1:44 isn't fact - no other facts you quote show it is - it can only remain speculation. You can't tell the difference. But what is also fact is that not all 800 records or fast times have been set with pacemakers. So they aren't a necessity.
Of course it is speculation. Is this a joke? That's why we've been discussing about his potential over 10+ pages. It is not a fact - it is speculation and you look at evidence to speculate.
You've been proved about the strong co-relation between pace makers and running fast. You pointing to exceptions doesn't change that.
And please, go at least fact check and learn about the subject you're discussing otherwise you look like a fool as you've been constantly doing here.
One thing is to ignore the evidence and suggest Ovett's max potential was 1:43.5
Another is to constantly deny reality and spread false information.
Once again in one of your last posts you bring false information. No, Kipketer didn't set three WR and one of them indoors.
He set the outdoor WR 3 times (the first equalling Seb Coe's 1:41.73) and the indoor WR twice, these two marks during the same week.
If you concede the thread is ultimately speculation then I cannot be "wrong". Speculation isn't fact. What is ironic is that my suggestion of around 1:43 for Ovett was in the same ballpark as Salvatore, whom many of you either accepted or agreed with. But I haven't agreed with 1:42 or faster. But then, as I have said, it is just a matter of opinion since he never ran faster than 1:44.
There may be a correlation between pacemakers and running fast - I haven't argued otherwise - but since fast times and even records have often been recorded without them (what about Ryun's 1500 wr in '67?) they aren't a necessity - what is required is simply a fast enough race. How fast? Well that's the point. I've asked it several times and no one has said what the first lap time needs to be to enable an 800 record - Ryun did it with negative splits - and whether this can only occur with a pacemaker. So if fast times and records have been achieved without pacemakers then the argument that Ovett didn't have them over the 800m (ever?) and that is why he never ran below 1:44 is significantly reduced. On the basis of even-splits he could have gone below 1:44 with a sub 52 first lap. Did he never run sub-52?
The point highlighted about the 1500 is irrelevant. It is a very different event. But, as I have said, fast times and wrs in the 800 have been achieved without pacemakers.
This post was edited 11 minutes after it was posted.
More verbosity. None of what you say establishes for a fact what Ovett could have run - and that is the point of the thread. Faster than 1:44 isn't fact - no other facts you quote show it is - it can only remain speculation. You can't tell the difference. But what is also fact is that not all 800 records or fast times have been set with pacemakers. So they aren't a necessity.
Of course it is speculation. Is this a joke? That's why we've been discussing about his potential over 10+ pages. It is not a fact - it is speculation and you look at evidence to speculate.
You've been proved about the strong co-relation between pace makers and running fast. You pointing to exceptions doesn't change that.
And please, go at least fact check and learn about the subject you're discussing otherwise you look like a fool as you've been constantly doing here.
One thing is to ignore the evidence and suggest Ovett's max potential was 1:43.5
Another is to constantly deny reality and spread false information.
Once again in one of your last posts you bring false information. No, Kipketer didn't set three WR and one of them indoors.
He set the outdoor WR 3 times (the first equalling Seb Coe's 1:41.73) and the indoor WR twice, these two marks during the same week.
When I referred to Kipketer setting world records I was referring to him breaking it, not equalling it. Your point is pedantry.
But, again - how were Ryun, Doubell, Wottle and Juantorena able to break - equal - the wr without pacemakers?
Following the argument asserted on this thread about pacemakers I should point out that Ryun ran as fast as Ovett did 13 years earlier, at only 19, and on a far inferior track and with inferior shoes, with a negative split and no pacemaker. So he must have been capable of far faster than what Ovett ran. Probably 1:40, using the arguments on this thread.
Of course it is speculation. Is this a joke? That's why we've been discussing about his potential over 10+ pages. It is not a fact - it is speculation and you look at evidence to speculate.
You've been proved about the strong co-relation between pace makers and running fast. You pointing to exceptions doesn't change that.
And please, go at least fact check and learn about the subject you're discussing otherwise you look like a fool as you've been constantly doing here.
One thing is to ignore the evidence and suggest Ovett's max potential was 1:43.5
Another is to constantly deny reality and spread false information.
Once again in one of your last posts you bring false information. No, Kipketer didn't set three WR and one of them indoors.
He set the outdoor WR 3 times (the first equalling Seb Coe's 1:41.73) and the indoor WR twice, these two marks during the same week.
If you concede the thread is ultimately speculation then I cannot be "wrong". Speculation isn't fact. What is ironic is that my suggestion of around 1:43 for Ovett was in the same ballpark as Salvatore, whom many of you either accepted or agreed with. But I haven't agreed with 1:42 or faster. But then, as I have said, it is just a matter of opinion since he never ran faster than 1:44.
There may be a correlation between pacemakers and running fast - I haven't argued otherwise - but since fast times and even records have often been recorded without them (what about Ryun's 1500 wr in '67?) they aren't a necessity - what is required is simply a fast enough race. How fast? Well that's the point. I've asked it several times and no one has said what the first lap time needs to be to enable an 800 record - Ryun did it with negative splits - and whether this can only occur with a pacemaker. So if fast times and records have been achieved without pacemakers then the argument that Ovett didn't have them over the 800m (ever?) and that is why he never ran below 1:44 is significantly reduced. On the basis of even-splits he could have gone below 1:44 with a sub 52 first lap. Did he never run sub-52?
The point highlighted about the 1500 is irrelevant. It is a very different event. But, as I have said, fast times and wrs in the 800 have been achieved without pacemakers.
You are not wrong about "facts" but that is absolute useless to the discussion. But if that is what you need, sure, you and nobody else is wrong about the fact Ovett never ran faster than 1:44.09 because that is what it is - a fact.
Ability to speculate and infer potential of a runner requires knowledge of the event - which you demonstrated to have very little, given the amount of falsehood you've been spreading here.
There may be a correlation between pacemakers and running fast
Intellectual dishonest strikes once again. No, it is not "there may be". Evidence for this is overwhelming in World Record races and World Record attempts.
So if fast times and records have been achieved without pacemakers then the argument that Ovett didn't have them over the 800m (ever?) and that is why he never ran below 1:44 is significantly reduced.
No, this is false and you know it, because you have been provided with overwhelming amount of facts through the thread that breaks your argument but your intellectual dishonest prevents you from conceding.
You've been providing with evidence that sub 1.44 races were very rarely run back then - meaning a sub 1.44 time was rarely required to win a race. You've been provided with evidence that Ovett lost a single sub 1:44 race in his career -- the extensively discussed race where he went ~49.7-8 for the first lap -- you've been provided with evidence that Ovett was a "championship racer" and you've been given examples of what that means - including contemporaries runners like Mo Farah thad had clear potential to chase records through their careers, yet they didn't; you've been providing with statistics and splits about some of Ovett races -- you failed to discuss them because you lack knowledge; you've been providing with the example of Peter Elliott, a great runner but clearly inferior to Ovett; you failed to discuss all this evidence, and then you tried to divert the discussion pointing to exceptions of the overwhelming evidence you've been provided.
The point highlighted about the 1500 is irrelevant. It is a very different event. But, as I have said, fast times and wrs in the 800 have been achieved without pacemakers.
It is is irrelevant because it helps breaking your poor argumentation.
Following the argument asserted on this thread about pacemakers I should point out that Ryun ran as fast as Ovett did 13 years earlier, at only 19, and on a far inferior track and with inferior shoes, with a negative split and no pacemaker. So he must have been capable of far faster than what Ovett ran. Probably 1:40, using the arguments on this thread.
No, he didn't. He ran 1:44.9 ~880 yards which converts to a ~ 1:44.3.
Some famous poster from the past claimed Ryun was capable of 1:39.
Yes, I do believe Jim Ryun was a superior runner to Ovett.
I do believe he is up there in terms of talent and potential, just below Kipketer and perhaps Peter Snell -- and around same level of other all-time greats Rudisha, Cruz and Coe. But it must be pointed there's not much evidence for that as Ryun ran very few 800m races through his career, so to speculate that one must use his 1,500 / Mile races for the case.
Ovett was not in the same level of these runners including Ryun, he would come on a 2nd tier of all-time greatness for the 800m.