Thank you, this is the kind of response I was looking for.
My daughter is going to BYUs camp this summer. So hopefully can learn some things there. I'm mostly interested in finding out how to progress her training from where it is. I've been involved in the sport 40 years, ran D1 in the Pac 10, so I'm not a total noob. But obviously these people know what they're doing on a whole new level. Heading into the summer the questions I'm trying to figure out are whether I should increase my daughter's mileage (or if not more running, elliptical) or whether she should add some weight training, or both? I'm trying to avoid my daughter plateauing out like so many other people do once they've made their first big jump in fitness.
I suggest you see what you can find out specifically with regard to her running form coaching/training. I thought there was a blurb on that which passed my eyes a while ago, but if you do the research and report back on anything you find, I’ll share something specifically that might be of benefit, m’kay? (Bekele’s OG coach was big on form.)
I'll dig more but I know her father is developing/has developed a program that uses AI to analyze form and I presume they use that data to make corrections. On roadrunner's Facebook page there are some short videos that kind of show how it works and it's pretty impressive. This is where you can see evidences of the nuances that they make their program/community an amazing success. Obviously there are no magic secrets in running, it's consistency and genetics. But the nuances make a big difference.
Did you know that the following runners all have something in common?
Lexy Halladay, a phenom since the 6th grade from Meridian ID, Taylor Roe, a phenom from Wash, Lily Alder from PA, Angie Alder. a 6th grade national champ, just moved to Ut, Susan Hedengren, 7th grade 5:02 miler, Jane Hedengren, no explanation needed.
Now you might be thinking they have incredible genetics from All-American and Olympian parents, or you might be thinking they’ve had very healthy upbringings with stable family situations and access to high-level training - or you might be thinking all of these athletes are extremely dedicated, work hard, eat right, get enough sleep and and have been a part of great running cultures - but you poor schmucks in LRC would be absolutely wrong!!!
See, after checking the record books and verifying that her holiness, the great KT, (may she ever be blessed) has been surpassed, it’s really quite obvious. I mean, the only way this could be possible is - you guessed it. Doping!!
See, I know things. I mean, I’ve studied it out. It’s the only logical conclusion and to think otherwise would be crazy - and trust me, I know crazy.
Anywhoo, thanks for allowing me to lay this out for the less psychotic people on the board. All the best,
I suggest you see what you can find out specifically with regard to her running form coaching/training. I thought there was a blurb on that which passed my eyes a while ago, but if you do the research and report back on anything you find, I’ll share something specifically that might be of benefit, m’kay? (Bekele’s OG coach was big on form.)
I'll dig more but I know her father is developing/has developed a program that uses AI to analyze form and I presume they use that data to make corrections. On roadrunner's Facebook page there are some short videos that kind of show how it works and it's pretty impressive. This is where you can see evidences of the nuances that they make their program/community an amazing success. Obviously there are no magic secrets in running, it's consistency and genetics. But the nuances make a big difference.
I was going to share a basic cue (which I think actually seems to work for this old geezer starting back up.) It is conveyed in another Igram post I saw recently. But I forgot to save the post and can’t find it. It basically was a ‘foot up’ cue, getting the foot up off the ground underneath the hip, while kind-of falling forward (with gravity aid.)
I was going to share a basic cue (which I think actually seems to work for this old geezer starting back up.) It is conveyed in another Igram post I saw recently. But I forgot to save the post and can’t find it. It basically was a ‘foot up’ cue, getting the foot up off the ground underneath the hip, while kind-of falling forward (with gravity aid.)
I realize this might sound pretty simple and basic for a well-trained runner, but over the years, I’ve come across all kinds of cues, like “high knees”, “foot down”, etc. and the cue I’m talking about, which helps in reducing ground-contact time, contradicts those a bit.
I know what youre saying,but could it be that jane is fast because she lives and trains at altitude? that surely helps. I accepted a very long time ago,that mass doping is a part of most sports,and it doesnt bother me. Its none of my business,although i know the athletes will pay for it later in life.I also know that most teen phenoms come and go,and very few go on to have long careers. Many that do, peak younger than they should.
I was going to share a basic cue (which I think actually seems to work for this old geezer starting back up.) It is conveyed in another Igram post I saw recently. But I forgot to save the post and can’t find it. It basically was a ‘foot up’ cue, getting the foot up off the ground underneath the hip, while kind-of falling forward (with gravity aid.)
I realize this might sound pretty simple and basic for a well-trained runner, but over the years, I’ve come across all kinds of cues, like “high knees”, “foot down”, etc. and the cue I’m talking about, which helps in reducing ground-contact time, contradicts those a bit.
I just found the post; before I post the link, I want to say I don’t follow this channel and haven’t reviewed it. The reason I like this post (which randomly popped up in my thread) is because of the way the simple diagram poignantly conveyed the point:
Wow, her splits are very inefficient. She went out too quick and then bounced all over the place. Imagine if she could really lock in on 1:12:25 quarters.🤔
Absolutely. If she actually ran smart she would be so much better. Hopefully she will figure that out as she develops. It’s always sad to see fast times with terrible pacing
Go to Athletic.net, find your way to Timpview's page, then click on "records", then click on "all". Then scroll down to the girls 1600m. You will find that 8 of the top 10 times at Timpview have been since 2019. In addition to Hedengren, Lily Alder is under 4:40 for 1600, Daphne Batmale at 5:00, Ellie Esplin 5:08 last year, Gwen Boulton 5:13 last year. Also in the area is Angelina Alder, a 6th grader who ran 4:57 at Nike Indoor Nationals. There are probably more but I think that's enough to highlight that it's not just Jane Hedengren.
Take the time to go on Facebook and look up the roadrunner club. The stuff they post will blow your mind. This is not just another local youth club. Timpview/Roadrunner are light years ahead of what's going on around here.
I'm not interested in finding out how to create another Jane Hedengren, as duh she's uniquely talented. I'm interested in how to optimize my daughter's training to come out with the best outcome. My daughter has been running for a year and is at 5:15. It's pretty likely she'll break 5 before graduating in a few years if we don't change anything. I want to find out how to get that under 4:50. There are so many different things we could change and optimize. I want to ask questions of someone who really knows what they are doing, so I know how to progress beyond what we've already done.
I feel sorry for how clueless you are, so I'm going to do you a favor and educate you.
The Timpview situation is the same as the boys Newbury Park team was a few years ago. Two great families and a bunch of good but not great runners. At 2024 NXR Southwest, only the top 2 teams automatically qualified for nationals. Even with two of the best girls in the country, the Timpview team finished 7th place. Without the Alder and Hedengren families, Timpview would have finished 19th. Without those two families Timpview is barely top 100 in the country. Once the Alder and Hedengren families have no more school aged kids, no one will be talking about Timpview training.
Plus the Alder family is new to Timpview. The Alder mom is an Olympian and the Alder kids were already great before they moved to Timpview. Timpview training had nothing to do with the fact that the Alders have great genes.
You're looking in the wrong place. There is nothing special or different about what Timpview is doing regarding their training that a hundred other schools aren't already doing. It's just regular solid training combined with amazing genes that two families happen to have.
So stop with your silly "go look at Athletic.net" ridiculousness. I'm well aware of who is on their team and what their times are. If it wasn't for the great genes of the Alder and Hedengren families, you wouldn't even be thinking about Timpview and their training right now.
LOL just dumb.
Their training is obviously very good. Perhaps there are a hundred other places they could be just as good because they have huge genetic talent and there are a lot of good coaches out there. But there are thousands of places where they would be maybe 5:00 level good. And lots of places where they would be overtrained and injured/unable to train, or overraced, or any other number of dumb mistakes that ruin good runners every year.
In my very large city, there are dozens of high schools, and only 5 of them have any distance runners that are any good. It's always the same 5. Most of the rest don't have a single girl running under 6:00 for the mile. This is obviously not distribution of genetics, but poor coaching.
I've chopped 1:30 off my daughter's mile time in the past year with a pretty standard program focused on aerobic development. She hasn't lost any weight, so it's not anorexia magic. I know a lot about training and have friends and former teammates who've reached the highest levels of the sport, so I have people I can ask (and have). I'm not looking for magic workouts or anything stupid like that. I'm looking to find out how they're achieving such high levels of aerobic endurance without getting injured or overtrained. Are they pushing the envelope and taking risks? Are they doing non-standard things that are just now coming into vogue (e.g. Valby doing a bunch of elliptical to increase aerobic development without injury risk). Contrary to your belief, there are a lot of new things going on in training, which is obvious if you look at how fast running is improving in the NCAA and USA.
I realize this might sound pretty simple and basic for a well-trained runner, but over the years, I’ve come across all kinds of cues, like “high knees”, “foot down”, etc. and the cue I’m talking about, which helps in reducing ground-contact time, contradicts those a bit.
I just found the post; before I post the link, I want to say I don’t follow this channel and haven’t reviewed it. The reason I like this post (which randomly popped up in my thread) is because of the way the simple diagram poignantly conveyed the point:
Is there some place where we can learn the details of how Timpview is developing these athletes? If you do a little poking around, they seem to have a great youth program in the area (Roadrunner running club). I imagine that they have a highly optimized system, almost professional. I have a ton of questions!
That running club is definitely not only a Timpview feeder program. Kids from all over Utah Valley participate. John Hedengren has been very open about what they do. He recently posted on a thread about it.
Part of their success is talent. There are currently multiple former NCAA champs and all-americans whose kids participate in the club. But it's also a really solid system that fosters age appropriate fitness and development.
Thank you. I was generalizing with Timpview but there are a lot of good runners in the SLC/Provo area. There's obviously a culture and great community there.
Wow, her splits are very inefficient. She went out too quick and then bounced all over the place. Imagine if she could really lock in on 1:12:25 quarters.🤔
Absolutely. If she actually ran smart she would be so much better. Hopefully she will figure that out as she develops. It’s always sad to see fast times with terrible pacing
What are you guys talking about?
These splits look really consistent, after a slightly slow 73.3 second pace first 200m, then a quicker 71 (to catch up to the lights?), she ran an almost metronomic 9 laps between 72.0 and 72.5, before accelerating the last 2 laps under 70.5. That seems almost ideal pacing.