Yes, an athlete can be GOAT distance runner based on only 1 event. But at the current moment thats extremely hard (if not almost impossible).
How would you trump Bekele's (or Gebrselassie's or...) achievements with one event? A career stretching two full decades with top achievements at a variety of events?
How can a pure 1500m runner (for example) top this? 4 Olympic titles and various sub 3:24 times? Maybe.
To better Bekele and Gebrselassie, you need several events. Success at the highest level from 1500m to 5k is a solid basis for Ingebrigtsen to achieve his goal. Let's wait to see what he can do in the years to come.
At the moment I'm really sceptical if he will win in Paris.
I think I prefer to be a little undecided and blurry when it comes to comparing athletes from different events… F.ex Bolt -If he ran 9.65 instead of 9.58, and kept his 200m WR and f.ex did 43.60: Would he then still been in the Goat discussion, but based on range more than one excellent event? I think so. But his 9.58 is 0.10 better than number two on the all time list -he doesn’t need Haile’s or Bekele’s range to be competitive…
And what about Rudisha -he ran his WR in a totally unpaced championship. And Elliott -won by 3 seconds on a time that is so good that calibrated to our current conditions (shoes, tracks, pacers, pacing lights, “strung out by the rail running”) clearly would be competitive…
Conclusion: There are 3-4 athletes I see very little point of trying to differentiate between. Maybe even Jakob sees it this way. -That he has to do something huge over multiple events to be The One. He also seems to take it as granted that his best events are 10k / half marathon - we just have to wait and see if he totally is in alignment with reality here, or not at all… Exciting times.
Ther never will be a clear answer to such questions. It also depends a lot on your personal preferences.
For me, Rudisha is not a contender for GOAT distance running (of we are really looking for this). I even would put Coe ahead of him (at best almost as good as Rudisha over 800 (or even better, regarding historical context) plus all-time status also over 100m/Mile. But Coe for me is way behind Gebrselassie and Bekele (which had much more "straight" careers).
Others can see it totally different, that's OK.
Ingebrigtsen has a long way to go, but for me he has a serious chance to succeed with his goal. I would really like to know in which kind of shape he is currently after his injury problems. I'm sceptical for Paris (and hope for Nuguse...). Let's see - extremely interesting the upcoming season.
For sure you are wrong also here. It has nothing to do with not in agreement of subjective things (what's necessary to become GOAT for example).
You have cjanged the subjkect at least 10 times on those last few pages in this thread. Good to see in your latest posts.
You denied the simple statement that Ingebrigtsen's PBs at age 22 are worth much more than Snell's PBs at the same age. You did it with mentioning achievements from Snell he did later in his career.
And it was the same with any single point in this thread. You are just plain stupid. And a pure liar. Nothing new, you act like this since years.
Let's see what Ingebrigtsen can do in the next 10 years.
Snell had a better career than Jakob but at 22 he was not only Olympic champion, he had 3 world records in his specialist events. That puts him ahead of Jakob.
Good to see in this short post how utterly stupid this guy is. He has to better the achievements of A in A's events, the achievements of B in B's events and so on...
At least he has made sure that in his world Ingebrigtsen never will be GOAT. That's OK, hate can do a lot.
Top achievements from 1500m to 5k hardly could be enough for me. He needs a 10k Olympic gold. Also a 10k WR definitely would be enough for me.
Viren held the 5k WR for an astonishing 6 days untel broken by 3.4 seconds.
So how does Jakob become the GOAT if he doesn't at least match the achievements of the best in his events if not exceed them? The term GOAT implies - requires - an historical comparison with all the best who have gone before. You are really quite witless.
He clearly has to better
Nurmi's 9 Olympic Gold medals Gebrselassie 26 WRs El Guerrouj's 30+ sub 3:30 times Farah's no. of global titles Cheptegei's, ElG's and Komen's current WRs Keino's and Aouita's range Bekele's and Kipchoge's longevity Zatopek's triple Rono's record season Coe's two Golds Elliott's and Bayi's WRs in finals Moses' and Holloway's unbeaten records Beamon's % improvement
In fairness, the claim was poorly made. I found it on page 6. The “objectiveobserver” made the claim while comparing Jakob to greats such as Bekele and Geb. If you’re going to compare Jakob’s accomplishments at any age to those of Bekele and Geb, then why talk about just 1500 to 5k? Bekele and Geb dominated at 10k, and Bekele also dominated at cross country, so any fair comparison with those legends should include all distances they ran and all surfaces.
The GOAT debate isn’t about a narrow range of distances on the track. It should account for everything. Immediately after making the 1500 to 5k claim, the “objectiveobserver” wrote, “None of the above mentioned runners had 3 golds and 3 silver (inclusive one indoor) in the Olympics and WCs at his age.” If you unfairly just look at 1500 to 5k, that’s true. But if we appropriately look at their entire résumés, the comparison no longer favors Jakob.
At age 22, Bekele already had:
8 world cross country championship gold medals and 1 silver
2 golds, 1 silver, and 1 bronze on the track
world records at 5k and 10k
Forget the narrow range of distances. At age 22, nobody has done better than Bekele. For an entire career, nobody has done better than Bekele. I appreciate Jakob’s desire to eventually become the GOAT. He has a long way to go.
You are addressing my initial post on page 6 which Armstrong has misquoted and went BANANAS over for many pages.
I will try to discuss the topic in a civilized manner.
First, I explicitely stated that Jakob is not the Goat yet. BUT...... I did not write anything about what might be necessary to be the Goat in the future!
I only stated that he was the most successful 1500m to 5000m and I think you will agree that is right even if you include the 10000m distance which Bekele, Gebrselassie and more also ran..
.......................
I think Jakob is considering the distances from 1500m to the marathon, including the 3000SC, when he is talking about becoming the Greatest of All Time. That is the distances where he reportedly will try to break the WRs. I THINK HE HAS A REAL CHANCE TO ACHIEVE THIS GOAL, BARRING ILLNESS AND INJURY.
I am a big admirer of Bekele and I agree that Jakob possibly never will be the Goat if X country WC races have to be included. He would need to start running these races and it seems almost impossibly to come close to Bekele in this respect. And today there is only one race, the long one, not 2 as before.
I think I prefer to be a little undecided and blurry when it comes to comparing athletes from different events… F.ex Bolt -If he ran 9.65 instead of 9.58, and kept his 200m WR and f.ex did 43.60: Would he then still been in the Goat discussion, but based on range more than one excellent event? I think so. But his 9.58 is 0.10 better than number two on the all time list -he doesn’t need Haile’s or Bekele’s range to be competitive…
And what about Rudisha -he ran his WR in a totally unpaced championship. And Elliott -won by 3 seconds on a time that is so good that calibrated to our current conditions (shoes, tracks, pacers, pacing lights, “strung out by the rail running”) clearly would be competitive…
Conclusion: There are 3-4 athletes I see very little point of trying to differentiate between. Maybe even Jakob sees it this way. -That he has to do something huge over multiple events to be The One. He also seems to take it as granted that his best events are 10k / half marathon - we just have to wait and see if he totally is in alignment with reality here, or not at all… Exciting times.
Ther never will be a clear answer to such questions. It also depends a lot on your personal preferences.
For me, Rudisha is not a contender for GOAT distance running (of we are really looking for this). I even would put Coe ahead of him (at best almost as good as Rudisha over 800 (or even better, regarding historical context) plus all-time status also over 100m/Mile. But Coe for me is way behind Gebrselassie and Bekele (which had much more "straight" careers).
Others can see it totally different, that's OK.
Ingebrigtsen has a long way to go, but for me he has a serious chance to succeed with his goal. I would really like to know in which kind of shape he is currently after his injury problems. I'm sceptical for Paris (and hope for Nuguse...). Let's see - extremely interesting the upcoming season.
I like your reasoning and the way you present your thoughts.
What a pathetic critique. He isn't the best at any events yet at 23, so he has no claim to be GOAT? It is his goal to be the greatest of all time. He didn't claim to be it yet. But of course, he actually is already the best ever at 2 events and within a year or two of having a strong case at three other events. He has run the 8th fastest 1500m all-time, 11 sub-3:30s, and the third fastest mile of all-time, with limited pacing and into the wind. He smashed the world records at 2000m (he also has the #14 time) and two miles last year. He closed the last 3000m in 7:21, within a second of Komen's amazing 3000m record and probably could have run 7:18-19. He has 2 of the top 5 3k times all-time. Then he's run 12:48 in the 5000m and won two world championships already in that event to go with his Olympic gold in the 1500m and two World Outdoor Silvers and a World Indoor Silver in the 1500m. He has got an absolutely incredible start to his career, having accomplished all of the above by age 22.
Add a second Olympic 1500m gold and he'll have equalled Coe in that honor, while surpassing him by far in World medals at 1500m and running 11 times under 3:30 vs. just once. He's already equalled El G in Olympic 1500m golds but he'll surpass him in Olympic golds in Paris if he wins at 1500m and 5000m. He has a ways to go to surpass El G in times sub-3:30, best 1500m times, best mile time, and world championship golds. But then El G had done barely anything when he was 22. At 5000m, he has not run as fast as Bekele, Geb, or Cheptegei, of course, though faster than Farah, but he has two world golds already and the time will come when he targets it.
1500m
8 3:27.14 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Chorzów 16.07.2023
19 3:27.95 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Oslo 15.06.2023
23 3:28.32 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Tokyo 07.08.2021 (Olympic Record and gold)
34 3:28.68 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 2 Monaco 14.08.2020
35 3:28.72 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Lausanne 10.06.2023
38 3:28.76+ Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Eugene 16.09.2023 enroute to mile 3rd all-time
56 3:29.02 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Zürich 08.09.2022
59 3:29.05 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Lausanne 26.08.2022
79 3:29.25 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 3 Monaco 09.07.2021
93 3:29.47 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 2 Eugene 19.07.2022
111 3:29.65 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 2 Budapest 23.08.2023
Mile
1 3:43.13 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Roma 07.07.1999
2 3:43.40 Noah Ngeny KEN 02.11.78 2 Roma 07.07.1999
3 3:43.73 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Eugene 16.09.2023
15 3:46.46 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Oslo 16.06.2022
22 3:47.24 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Eugene 21.08.2021
2000m
1 4:43.13 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Bruxelles 08.09.2023
2 4:44.79 Hicham El Guerrouj MAR 14.09.74 1 Berlin 07.09.1999
3000m
3 7:23.63 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Eugene 17.09.2023
4 7:23.64 Yomif Kejelcha ETH 01.08.97 2 Eugene 17.09.2023
5 7:24.00+ Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Paris 09.06.2023 (enroute to 2M WR)
Two Miles
1 7:54.10 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Paris 09.06.2023
2 7:58.61 Daniel Komen KEN 17.05.76 1 Hechtel 19.07.1997
5000m
35 12:48.45 Jakob Ingebrigtsen NOR 19.09.00 1 Firenze 10.06.2021
The more you write the less convincing you become. Desperate.
That is exactly why you should be banned from this website permanently. You make personal insults. You do not respond at all to the well thought out and detailed research and arguments of anyone else. You litter the boards with one sentence dismissals, often twenty to the page of a thread. We'd all be far better off with you off the boards. You contribute nothing whatsoever. What facts should we be taking account of here? You bring none of them.
Snell had a better career than Jakob but at 22 he was not only Olympic champion, he had 3 world records in his specialist events. That puts him ahead of Jakob.
Snell was a bum compared to Jakob. Running against other bums is not what it is now. Jakob now has a couple thousand more competitors from around the world than Snell ever did.
You're probably a boomer that bought a house in the 70's for 8 raspberries and can't grasp that now 2 people in the houshold have to work 20 years to afford the same house. Times are much harder now, in sports too. Therefore the achievements much more valuable as well.
The more you write the less convincing you become. Desperate.
That is exactly why you should be banned from this website permanently. You make personal insults. You do not respond at all to the well thought out and detailed research and arguments of anyone else. You litter the boards with one sentence dismissals, often twenty to the page of a thread. We'd all be far better off with you off the boards. You contribute nothing whatsoever. What facts should we be taking account of here? You bring none of them.
Ther never will be a clear answer to such questions. It also depends a lot on your personal preferences.
For me, Rudisha is not a contender for GOAT distance running (of we are really looking for this). I even would put Coe ahead of him (at best almost as good as Rudisha over 800 (or even better, regarding historical context) plus all-time status also over 100m/Mile. But Coe for me is way behind Gebrselassie and Bekele (which had much more "straight" careers).
Others can see it totally different, that's OK.
Ingebrigtsen has a long way to go, but for me he has a serious chance to succeed with his goal. I would really like to know in which kind of shape he is currently after his injury problems. I'm sceptical for Paris (and hope for Nuguse...). Let's see - extremely interesting the upcoming season.
I find no flaws in your reasoning here.!
And I also agree in your saying about personal references.
Rudisha and El Guerrouj share sort of the same problem when it comes to being Goats -they could dominate their events, but their WR’s aren’t like Bolt’s 100m, meaning #2 all time runner in the 1500m / mile (Lagat/Ngeny) and the 800m (Kipketer) is a little too near their WR’s. And the 2000m for Hicham was something he sort of did on his 1500m strength. But if he had done the 3000m 3 sec faster I think he could have entered the Goat discussion…
Jakob is extremely interesting. One year ago I thought he would have had to settle with a 3.26.5 in a max race -simply not fast enough in the 800m to do 1500m WR. But know I think he can break it (if a year or two without injuries). But a 3.25.8 won’t make him the 1500m Goat in my eyes; but of course close…
I think Jakob is Goat material. But because of injuries I think the odds are less than 50%. But there’s another side: If Jakob also has the potential in the 10k and half marathon he thinks he has then there is a possibility he can become the Goat with a HUGE margin!
Best ever at no events? Jakob is the best ever at 2k and 2M, fourth best at 1500m (ahead are a doper (Kiprop), a runner whose training partners tested positive (El G), and an A sample (Lagat)), third best at mile, third best ever at 3k, 15th at 5000m. Add to that three world or Olympic golds and two silvers. That is a great, great start to the GOAT case at 22! And of course his comments make it crystal clear that he is not talking about being the best ever at one event but at a range of them from 1500m through half marathon. Contrast a figure like Bekele, 2nd at 5k and 10k, and lower at every other distance, 1500m in the 700s, half marathon 848.
Eh, but Bekele's record at 3000m and up is overall much better than Jakob's. Still has WR in indoor 2000m and 5000m, plus his 2nd at 5000m and 10000m was done with no wavelengths or supershoes. The one guy ahead of him, Cheptegei, has been no where near as dominant at either as Bekele was in his prime (undefeated in 10000m from 2003-2011). Also 3rd in the marathon all time with a masters WR to boot. His 11 world XC titles unquestionably make him the GOAT in cross. His half ranking is also not representative of his true potential, a 2:01:41 marathoner can run a half faster than 60:07, Bekele just barely ever raced the half and never did a serious time trial. Jakob could be the GOAT one day, but he's got a long way to go. He needs to throw down some fast 10000m and half times first before he can be in the conversation of distance GOAT.
Compare Jakob to a runner like Andreas Almgren. Almgren started out as an 800m runner, barely has any Worlds or Olympics finals appearances but in his HM debut a few weeks ago he runs a 59:22, second fastest European in history
If we can assume that Jakob knows himself the best with the HM and 10k being his strongest events and we can assume that he can perform better in the HM than a runner from his neighboring country with no global medals, then he's going to be on GOAT trajectory if he leaves Paris with the gold in the 1500 and 5000.
Also remember that Jakobs current main competition in the 5k is Katir, a doper, who Jakob still managed to outkick 4 days after losing the 1500 final.
Best ever at no events? Jakob is the best ever at 2k and 2M, fourth best at 1500m (ahead are a doper (Kiprop), a runner whose training partners tested positive (El G), and an A sample (Lagat)), third best at mile, third best ever at 3k, 15th at 5000m. Add to that three world or Olympic golds and two silvers. That is a great, great start to the GOAT case at 22! And of course his comments make it crystal clear that he is not talking about being the best ever at one event but at a range of them from 1500m through half marathon. Contrast a figure like Bekele, 2nd at 5k and 10k, and lower at every other distance, 1500m in the 700s, half marathon 848.
all-time performer
Bekele 1500m (159) 2000m (WIR) 3000m (13) 5000m (2) 10000m (2) Half-Marathon (339) (obviouisly not close to his potential) Marathon (3)
Ingebrigtsen 1500m (4) 1 Mile (3) 2000m (1) 3000m (3) 2 Miles (1) 5000m(19) steeple (690) (at age 16)
To pass Bekele, he obviously has a long way to go. But with this basis at age 22 (!) he definitely has a serious chance. If I had to predict, I would say he will not improve on his 1500m and Mile marks. He will better Komen's 3000m WR (7:17) and Cheptegei's 5000m WR (12:33). 10000m + HM - top times, but not really close to the WR - never runs a marathon. If he has real interest in the steeple I think sub 7:50 is possible. If he can achieve this until 2028 and win two more Olympic Golds (including a 10k Gold) then for me he would be the GOAT distance runner. Even when he retires at age 31 (after 2032 Olympics - or maybe even after 2028...). Yes, Bekele has set the bar extremely high, but long distance success combined with his already achievd 1500m success probably would do it for me (definitely if he could add the steeple WR). But I might be not completely objective here, because my main focus is in track running and not so much in cross and road running. At the moment for me Bekele and Gebrselassie are far ahead. Other all-time greats are closer (10k WR and/or Gold and I would put him ahead of El Guerrouj). 2nd 1500m Gold and a WR in an Olympic event, and Coe already is very close. Elliot, Snell, Keino, Viren, Aouita for me are no serious contenders (not that he has passed all of them already, but should very soon).
But after his marriage and for the 1st time serious injury problems, it's not so far stretched that he loses some focus, especially if Paris goes not to his liking. Also some others have improved extremely. What about Niels Laros? Let's wait and see,
a runner whose training partners tested positive (El G),
I don't know if you have this phrasing in English but we call this:
"Fishing in turbid water"
Knowing the one that was tested positive was 2 years at least after El G.
You don't know the personality of El G., similar to F. Lakjaa who is doing miracles in the Moroccan Football.
Its an austère personality difficult ti reach ...
And reason all LRC hater (Good day STEVE) spend 20 years without finding a single breach.
Anyway I read an article from A. Kada from 2019 where he say that El G. never tested positive at any competition and he as coach never had a runner that was tested positive.
The more you write the less convincing you become. Desperate.
That is exactly why you should be banned from this website permanently. You make personal insults. You do not respond at all to the well thought out and detailed research and arguments of anyone else. You litter the boards with one sentence dismissals, often twenty to the page of a thread. We'd all be far better off with you off the boards. You contribute nothing whatsoever. What facts should we be taking account of here? You bring none of them.
8 months ago he has had Komen's 7:58.61 as strong as any other running record. Ingebrigtsen's 7:54.10 for him is just a mark in an odd distance not worth talking about...
He has completely destroyed dozens of threads, since years. For sure he should have been banned long, long ago.
Fair enough. The other challenge with world XC now is the championships are only held every other year. It would be unrealistic to expect Jakob to win 11 XC golds like Bekele, but if he could win 3, I think that would help his GOAT case.
Related side note: I just learned that the 2026 world XC championships will be held in Tallahassee, FL! Somehow I missed that announcement. I’m already excited to attend! Hopefully Jakob will be competing along with our top Americans.