It's quite obvious from PowerOfTen that Mara paces runners to certain times in park run frequently. If you can look up park run volunteer records, why can't you look up and understand athlete records on Power Of Ten?
Is this some kind of smear campaign? You say she does not volunteer but then point out that she does. It's never ocurred to you that a recent ex Olympian might also help out by reliably pacing slower runners to certain times?
The "offensive" slogan on her t shirt that park run objected to was "Save Womens Sport".
Smear campaign. What are you talking about? I have specifically said I agree with her when she says about saving women’s sport, but I have said I don’t agree with how she went about it.
You said she volunteers regularly and I corrected you because she doesn’t. That is okay - neither do I. That isn’t a smear campaign, it’s just correcting your false information.
I’m out. I’m stating facts from parkrun’s own site and statements about what they are for. Frankly, you’re talking gibberish.
This seems to have descended into semantics of whether parkrun is a race or not. If it isn’t a race in any way whatsoever then they need to prove that by removing the timing, the event results and the runbritain/power of 10 ranking integration. If it is- in some way- still a race that is worthy of timing, placings and ranking integration, then it needs to be fair for the women competing and not just the men. Arguing about whether it’s a race or not whilst those giant contradictions are still in place is futile.
FWIW I’ve won a couple of local ‘races’ but I’ve never finished first in my local parkrun, make of that what you will.
Going off on a tangent I suppose but London marathon does feel very different to, say, Berlin and Boston. London is mainly charity runners, Boston is mainly qualifiers and felt very different to me. I’m not saying that one is better than the other in that regard, but they’re different. They are both races though, organised under race conditions, and, for example, times can be used as qualifiers for other events.
But parkrun is different to both, isn’t it? Even pinning a number on at a local 5K event is different, and feels different, compared to parkrun. parkrun is not a race, and that’s a fact - it is a fact because parkrun themselves say it’s not a race, and that is good enough for me.
I think you can take the definition of a race too far. Everyone in a "race" per your definition may not be racing.
I often enter "races" where I do not "race". I could be coming back from an injury/time off, I may have an A race coming up, I may have entered because my mates have, I may be pacing a slower runner, it may be an interesting event, but not a distance I'm particularly interested in (e.g trail race). Every race will have entrants like this. Does this mean it is not a race? Do times not matter as some people will have beaten those that aren't racing, and wouldn't have otherwise.
Parkrun is set up as a race. It has a start time, a start line, a race briefing, an officially measured course, a finish line, an accurately measured time, a published set of results etc. Some arrive with a race mindset, do a warmup etc, and race the course. Some take it easy. Similar to official races.
So when you enter something called a "race," it's a race even if you don't race it. If you enter something explicitly called "not a race," it is also a race if you race it.
This seems to have descended into semantics of whether parkrun is a race or not. If it isn’t a race in any way whatsoever then they need to prove that by removing the timing, the event results and the runbritain/power of 10 ranking integration. If it is- in some way- still a race that is worthy of timing, placings and ranking integration, then it needs to be fair for the women competing and not just the men. Arguing about whether it’s a race or not whilst those giant contradictions are still in place is futile.
FWIW I’ve won a couple of local ‘races’ but I’ve never finished first in my local parkrun, make of that what you will.
It's a semantic argument that Mara started. Where do these arguments end? Is the Cancer Research 10K a race? Is my monthly club handicap a race? School sports days? The egg and spoon race at the village fête?
At some point you have to accept these are private, and the organisers can make their own rules. Parkrun does not have a race permit so doesn't need to apply the same standards as competitive races.
It’s hardly Mara’s fault that all of those contradictions existed- the records, the rankings, parkrun’s celebrations of elite performances at their events, the rankings integration, the professional timing and results system that completely outclasses the results of many local ‘races’ I’ve run. Mara pointing at an event that operates exactly like a race for fast men but not for fast women isn’t on her; it’s on the organisers to tell everybody what they are. In their defence they have done so and they have decided to tell everyone they’re definitely not a race by deleting historic records that about 2% of users would have accessed, but keeping all of the rest of the extremely race-like aspects/barriers.
This post was edited 4 minutes after it was posted.
This seems to have descended into semantics of whether parkrun is a race or not. If it isn’t a race in any way whatsoever then they need to prove that by removing the timing, the event results and the runbritain/power of 10 ranking integration. If it is- in some way- still a race that is worthy of timing, placings and ranking integration, then it needs to be fair for the women competing and not just the men. Arguing about whether it’s a race or not whilst those giant contradictions are still in place is futile.
FWIW I’ve won a couple of local ‘races’ but I’ve never finished first in my local parkrun, make of that what you will.
Timing does not make a race. Race results are determined by position.
Official race placings (eg 3rd out of 100) only make any sense when there is an agreement between those 100 people to race together, before the gun. Otherwise you're not in a race. Parkrun is explicitly not a race. They don't have winners, losers, podiums or prizes. The "rules" are things like "watch out for dog walkers".
When you entered your local races, you and your competitors all agreed to race together. You all agreed to the race rules and the terms & conditions. You can rightly claim to have beaten them all on the day. They may say to you at the end that they were only running a tempo, after going out too hard and blowing up, or that they were wearing their heavy shoes, but it doesn't matter because there was a contract that agreed the rules at the start, and you all accepted it, and you came first.
Whoever finished first in your parkrun cannot rightly claim to have beaten you or anybody else on the day (unless you made some kind of informal agreement with them before or potentially at some point during the race - in which case, enjoy your informal racing). The parkrun placing is irrelevant noise, it means precisely nothing.
I completely agree that results should be removed from runbritain/powerof10. It was fairly understandably just meant to be a bit of fun for club runners but if it's confusing some people then it needs to go.
This seems to have descended into semantics of whether parkrun is a race or not. If it isn’t a race in any way whatsoever then they need to prove that by removing the timing, the event results and the runbritain/power of 10 ranking integration. If it is- in some way- still a race that is worthy of timing, placings and ranking integration, then it needs to be fair for the women competing and not just the men. Arguing about whether it’s a race or not whilst those giant contradictions are still in place is futile.
FWIW I’ve won a couple of local ‘races’ but I’ve never finished first in my local parkrun, make of that what you will.
It's a semantic argument that Mara started. Where do these arguments end? Is the Cancer Research 10K a race? Is my monthly club handicap a race? School sports days? The egg and spoon race at the village fête?
At some point you have to accept these are private, and the organisers can make their own rules. Parkrun does not have a race permit so doesn't need to apply the same standards as competitive races.
Which is odd because if you read Mara's answer to "what's your favorite thing about parkrun?" in the blog post linked above, she replies that she "loves it's non-competitive approach".
I love that it’s always there, you can just turn-up, and it’s a good warm-up distance away from my home! I also love its non-competitive approach – we have a national crisis of inactivity, obesity, diabetes etc in the UK and parkrun is terrific for including and welcoming new-comers and beginners.
At some point in the past 5 years, she seems to have changed her mind.
Timing does not make a race. Race results are determined by position.
Official race placings (eg 3rd out of 100) only make any sense when there is an agreement between those 100 people to race together, before the gun. Otherwise you're not in a race. Parkrun is explicitly not a race. They don't have winners, losers, podiums or prizes. The "rules" are things like "watch out for dog walkers".
Well, "watch out for dog walkers" etc has been part of the race brief of many races that I have taken part in.
No barcode, no time, marshalls to ensure runners do not take short cuts, rules on course measurement, rules on altering official courses, Parkrun being cancelled if the key volunteers aren't found, course recce/safety check, etc, are all rules akin to an organised race.
Which is odd because if you read Mara's answer to "what's your favorite thing about parkrun?" in the blog post linked above, she replies that she "loves it's non-competitive approach".
That could be said about the London Marathon, on which there is agreement that it is a race. The charity entrants aren't competing. There are reporters on the course stopping runners for interviews. Runners are wearing all sorts of costumes. What about the diver that took a couple of days.
Timing does not make a race. Race results are determined by position.
Official race placings (eg 3rd out of 100) only make any sense when there is an agreement between those 100 people to race together, before the gun. Otherwise you're not in a race. Parkrun is explicitly not a race. They don't have winners, losers, podiums or prizes. The "rules" are things like "watch out for dog walkers".
Well, "watch out for dog walkers" etc has been part of the race brief of many races that I have taken part in.
No barcode, no time, marshalls to ensure runners do not take short cuts, rules on course measurement, rules on altering official courses, Parkrun being cancelled if the key volunteers aren't found, course recce/safety check, etc, are all rules akin to an organised race.
Well these are all the things you need for an organised event. The volunteers and marshals are there primarily for public safety. Providing people with personal times and history on a reasonably consistent 5K route via barcodes does not make a race.
You can't claim you are in a race with other people who did not sign up or agree to race you. In your head you might be racing them, but they're likely just out for a jog.
It's a semantic argument that Mara started. Where do these arguments end? Is the Cancer Research 10K a race? Is my monthly club handicap a race? School sports days? The egg and spoon race at the village fête?
At some point you have to accept these are private, and the organisers can make their own rules. Parkrun does not have a race permit so doesn't need to apply the same standards as competitive races.
Which is odd because if you read Mara's answer to "what's your favorite thing about parkrun?" in the blog post linked above, she replies that she "loves it's non-competitive approach".
I love that it’s always there, you can just turn-up, and it’s a good warm-up distance away from my home! I also love its non-competitive approach – we have a national crisis of inactivity, obesity, diabetes etc in the UK and parkrun is terrific for including and welcoming new-comers and beginners.
At some point in the past 5 years, she seems to have changed her mind.
You're really very negative about Mara, aren't you? The word "approach" isn't equivalent to a definition of whether its a race or not, its simply discussing how its encouraging to all runners, no matter how fast or slow. All races have an "approach". My local cross country series has an approach that particularly embraces different age groups, for example. And sexes.
We can all look up quotes from park run or individuals connected with it and find ones which imply that it is a race. The fact that most of their literature uses the word "results" for one thing and they record finishing order and the race/event briefing includes an instruction not to overtake any other runner in the finishing chute, and to stay in the order that they crossed the finishing line, so as not to confuse the results.
Anyway, the message is loud and clear from park run. Its not for the likes of serious female runners who want a chance at winning or finishing in the top 3 in their local park run.
The bigger issue is that smaller races and local events obviously struggle with "policing" the trans issue, and women aren't happy if they get beaten in one of those events by somebody who shouldn't be in their category. Complaining that this is "political" and therefore shouldn't be discussed by women is farcical, as is claiming that women shouldn't care, because their runs just aren't important enough. If its not supposed to be important for women, why is it important for trans males to females?
It really seems to have been kicked off when Sian Longthorpe, a trans male to female athlete who was quite happily doing her own thing until she ran 18.53 in the Porthcawl Park Run 45-49 age group. At this point, she had been a woman for 18 months. Since anyone can register under any category in park run, why didn't the athlete in question choose to register in a different category so she wouldn't take a women's placing away from them? Was Sian quite as keen on running before she transitioned and started placing highly in races?
Despite going to all the trouble of changing her gender and embracing womenhood, remarkably this never occurred to Sian at all, although obviously she is quite a serious runner and serious about being a woman. Now I don't know about Sian, but I'm in the same age category and I know exactly who my local competitors are within quite a wide geographical area, many of whom I have grown up with through the age groups or shared podiums with over the years. But Sian grew up as a male runner and apparently had no idea how upsetting this would be to women runners in the races she chooses to do. Sian, who has been married and had children while a man, is now a brand ambassador for Asics. I can't see any biological woman being appointed an Asics brand ambassador for running sub 19 minutes in their local park run in their late forties. I'm sure Sian is a very nice person, but how can she not have had any idea that running as a woman would cause upset to her competitors when she is running with the unfair advantage of having a man's body?
Sian doesn't only compete in park run, in which she regularly finishes first woman overall, she also won her age category in the Exeter Half Marathon, finishing 6th female overall in 1.23.56, and in other races.
And removing the age group records isn't going to solve it, because any fast man can register as a woman for the day and take the leading spots.
The whole thing needs proper leadership on a national level from government by legislation, so that these endless arguments about semantics don't keep spoiling people's enjoyment of running.
You can't claim you are in a race with other people who did not sign up or agree to race you. In your head you might be racing them, but they're likely just out for a jog.
When an elite sets out on a world record attempt, they are not racing against the pacers, neither are they racing against the rest of the pack. They are racing against the clock.
The interesting thing is i agree with a small part of what Twister said.
At the Half Marathon where there is clearly a race going on we absolutely should have a seperate catagory. I have looked on the 2023 results and the 2024 results but cant seem to see her anymore. Yes at this point we can agree that if there is a prize and some sort of potential to qualify for something then it should be regulated.
But if i see a trans person at a Cancer Research Race for Life event in my local park should we stop a trans person running because she might affect the hardworking other people? How is Race for Life really that much different?
Both organsied by charity
Both held in parks with marshals
Both have utterly no place in the competative running world except for people looking to run fast or slow with no prizes, no winners or losers
Heck Race For Life even gives a medal to all finishers so to be fair i might start a campaign to stop people funding cancer charities and boycott events