Oh c'mon, mate. Bet you thought Jonathan Swift was serious when he wrote his famous essay saying that the obvious solution to the Irish potato famine was for the people of the Emerald Isle to eat their offspring.
Someone on LRC said that Thomas had done a good deed for women's swimming by bringing attention to it. To illustrate the flaw of that reasoning, I made an analogy pointing up the absurdity.
Also, how come you feel it's perfectly within your rights as a bloke to slag off women like me by tarring us with the misogynistic slur "TERFs," but you think we should be condemned as "despicable" for not being sweet, deferential and ladylike in our own choice of words? How come it's "despicable" and "hate" for women to stand up for ourselves, our own sports, our sex, and our boundaries? Why is it okay in your view for some of your sex to ride roughshod over women's rights and invade women's sports, but it's unacceptable for women to express anger about it?
Why do women have to show respect and kindness for Lia Thomas and reverence and credulity for Thomas's claim that Thomas is now a woman too when Thomas has shown absolutely zero respect for female people and no regard for fair play?
Men on LRC say vile, sexist things about women all the time. But I've never noticed you voicing objections to that. You reserve all your ire for women like me.
Also, you've said very clearly on other threads about women's sports that you don't believe that girls and women have a right to female-only sports anyways - and you've informed me that feminism which focuses on what is in the best interests of female people and is fair to female people is the racist outdated feminism of "old white women." The new, "improved" feminism of 2022, you told me, is all about including, centering and showing kindness to males like Thomas. The shiny new, supposedly superior feminism of nowadays that you've been so kind to educate me about says that girls and women are morally obliged to budge up and step aside so that males like Thomas can express their "inner womanliness" by invading women's sports and exposing their male genitals in women's locker rooms and they never, ever have to hear anyone tell them, "No, this is not your place. Stay in your own lane."
Since you hold and espouse ideas about women's sports and women's rights that strike me as misogynistic and just plain cockamamie, I see no reason to defer to your supposedly greater wisdom when it comes to fairness in women's and girls' sports.
But seeing as you're already on your high horse and beckoning for the scold's bridle to be brought out, here's another line making the rounds amongst the sort of women you find despicable for you to get huffy about: Lia Thomas puts the HE in cheat.
If you don’t consider Lia a woman, then yes, you are a trans-exclusionary feminist , I think by definition. I don’t think TERF is a slur, but simply an accurate description of your position (I’ll leave out the radical part). Do you think Lia is a woman?
Regardless of the former, if you think it’s cute or appropriately ironic to compare Lia to Putin in the current environment, both because of this controversy and the atrocities in the Ukraine, then yes, that’s despicable.
My problem with you isn’t about whether or not Lia should be allowed to compete. In the end, I think the answer is no. My problem is that you ooze contempt for her and show no empathy. You can bash me all you want. I’m not going to yield on Lia’s humanity and that she deserving of respect. I certainly don’t think doing so shows any disrespect to all other women.
You can't ignore the 'R' in TERF! You didn't say TEF, you said TERF. The purpose of the slur is to label any trans-exclusionary principles RADICAL in an attempt to suppress any feminist who dares to explain how some trans issues conflict with female rights.
Really? There’s being facetious, and there’s being just plain asinine.
Really? Let’s poll every 5 year old girl on earth and find out how many would choose to be a flying unicorn if they could. I’m going with 99%+. Are you saying they cant be flying unicorns? Why not?
99.9 percent of women are human beings born with the female version of human sexual and reproductive organs and the feminine version of a human brain. Most are happy living in the world as women, are attracted to men, and could not begin to imagine living in the world as men and having male secondary sex characteristics. A small percentage of human beings were born with a birth defect called transsexualism whereby (in the case of mtfs) a human is born with the male version of human sexual and reproductive organs, but due to insufficient release of testosterone during in utero development, their brains fail to fully masculinize and their brain structures are more similar to other women than to men.
By that definition is Thomas a woman? Have we confirmed that Thomas has this second condition? it’s been measured? even if it has, it still qualifies as a mental illness just like many other chemical imbalances in the brain.
what if He had been born with a “unicorn brain”. Would that make him a unicorn?
A woman can only give birth to a member of the human species, not imaginary species, or any other species of animal. But obviously, you know that. I do not know Lia personally nor do I know what type of process she went through to get on hormones. However, transsexuality is a documented phenomenon that occurs among the human species, in which a child from a young age behaves like a typical member of the opposite sex into which they were born, prefers wearing the clothing associated with the opposite sex, feels themselves to be a member of the opposite sex, and experiences severe discomfort during the onset of puberty. When treated with cross sex hormones and surgery, these individuals feel a huge sense of relief. Although trans people are in the news constantly nowadays, this is not a new phenomenon. In fact, Dr. Harry Benjamin published the Transsexual Phenomenon in 1966 based on decades of research and observations of trans people who lived in a variety of different cultures and countries. What he observed was that there were no statistically significant differences between trans people and everyone else in terms of their upbringing, or existence of a documented mental illness such as bipolar disorder etc. Almost all of the patients that he treated ended up blending back into society as members of the opposite sex into which they were born. Many got married, adopted children and were involved in their local communities and were accepted by their peers as members of the sex into which they transitioned.
Now, we can have an actual conversation about whether or not transwomen should be allowed to compete at a competitive level in women's sports (I personally don't believe that they should be competing at the D1 or professional levels) but rather than making flippant comments about a small group of people who face huge levels of discrimination in society, you can take the time to at least try to educate yourself or listen to another human being's perspective.
So you want end discrimination against trans people, but don’t want them competing in D1, which is discriminating against them, and is the exact position of everyone here who thinks this is wrong. Why shouldn’t Thomas compete in D1? Why isn’t it fair? your answers will be very revealing.
You want to maintain the moral authority to lecture all of us about our uneducated views on trans, insinuating we’re small minded bigots … while agreeing with us. Sorry, you don’t get both, and you chose to join the ranks of the “uneducated”. Own it.
Only way they can even consider having someone like Thomas compete against born females in a "fair" manner would be to develop some sort of handicap system. Maybe analyze the results of hundreds of NCAA swimmers (male and female) and determine the average amount of time the males beat the females by. Then add this time to whatever the trans athlete swims to determine their official time. It would not be a perfect system but it would at least somewhat level the playing field.
When it comes to sports, you can’t let trans people compete because of the unfair advantage it inevitably creates. Women’s sports were created for a reason, women are not as successful at sports as men due to genetic factors. What happened to these female college swimmers who were beaten by Lia Thomas this season was despicable. I can say as a former successful college athlete myself, you don’t get those years back. Lia took spots away from female college swimmers at nationals, she ruined the medal’s ceremony. There are so many women who were wronged by this situation. I just want to hug each and every one of them.
Your mind doesn’t determine your physical characteristics. A man who thinks he is a woman and changes his body and takes hormones, does not change his underlying genetics. He is a man masquerading as a woman… and that is why it is unfair. sneering condescension will never change that truth.
Little girls can not become flying unicorns even if they attach wings to their backs. They are still little girls masquerading as unicorns. same thing. Reality is brutal. It doesn’t care what you think. It just is.
“We can ignore reality, but we can not ignore the consequences of ignoring reality.” Ayn Rand
The consequence of ignoring the reality that Thomas is a man, is that we get to see a man crushing women in sports. And Rand was right! we can not ignore that can we?
When it comes to sports, you can’t let trans people compete because of the unfair advantage it inevitably creates. Women’s sports were created for a reason...
Just to be clear: no one - not even women who get branded evil despicable hateful "TERFs" like me - have an issue with "trans people" competing in women's sports. We object to male people competing in women's sports.
A female swimmer from Yale who "identifies as" a man also competed in the women's category at the NCAA championships. No one has made a peep of protest about that swimmer. And IMO, that's how it should be.
Female athletes belong in female sports because they are female. So long as they are not taking T, there's no reason on earth to exclude female athletes who "identify as" trans men - or who have any of the other newfangled gender identities so popular today, such as non-binary, vapogender, maverique, ace, what have you. Female sports - and female locker rooms - are for ALL female people simply because they are female.
No female persons should be excluded from girls or women's sports for having a gender identity different to their sex - or on any other grounds either, such as mode of dress, hair style, hair length, grooming habits, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, religion, heritage, lineage, place of birth, genetics, health history and current status, marital status, childbearing history, class background, household income, politics, dietary habits, favorite bands, dislikes and likes, etc.
So this really isn't about barring "trans people" from women's sports. It's simply about barring male people. ALL male people should be kept out of women's sports, not just male people who identify as trans like Lia Thomas. Most of us who are well-versed on this topic oppose the inclusion of males with disorders/differences of male sex development like Caster Semenya in women's sports just as much as as we oppose the inclusion of normally developed males like Thomas.
This is why calling women like me "TERFs" is so stupid. Our feminism doesn't exclude trans people. It's simply feminism for and about female people. ALL female people of all kinds, no matter how they identify.
I watched the NCAA women 500 yard Free a few minutes ago
You know when is the last time I watched an NCAA race?
Never.
You know how many views?
59K
The women 100 free (which Thomas did not swim) has 8K views
She did bring exposure to women swimming
Of course more people watched the Lia Thomas race. That's because everyone wanted to see what the fuss was about. Just like the women's 800 got a lot more attention when Semenya was running.
Women's basketball would get a lot more attention if Shaq said he felt female and started to play in the WNBA. It would be their highest ratings ever! But would it be fair? No.
And can you imagine the ratings for a tennis match between female/trans LeBron James in a dress vs Serena Williams? But that doesn't mean it should be allowed. Fairness in sports should not be determined by ratings and views.
Not how it came across to me. Nor to others. People were forced to walk on eggshells to address this issue.
Anyway the "yes it's wrong and unfair and arbitrary, and yes the female athletes have very legitimate complaints, but it's infrequent so what's the difference?" is not much of an argument. It is the admission of not having one.
Just gonna address this: "People were forced to walk on eggshells to address this issue."
Were they?
Do you know what it has been like for Lia? Did you see the protests at nationals? Did you hear the boos & everything that went well beyond that? Carry respectful discourse, fine, but you've read through this thread right? It's far from that. This isn't about some people who were made to feel a little bad because they can't get gender pronouns right.
The reality is we only have these conversations and know the names of trans athletes who do well. Do you know how many trans D1 swimmers there are? Just Lia. Do you know how much eligibility Lia has left? None. Do you know how many records she broke? None.
Letsrun has an obvious bias and hides behind free speech in these conversations. They ask us point blank if the transgender issue is hitting a breaking point on the home page. Is it? Because you know about the very few examples that get publicized? Is there a real problem here or has this turned into a political punching bag? Are there groups working hard to make you think transgender athletes are coming into your homes to take your freedoms right from under you?
This is a complicated topic. I'm not going to pretend to have all of the answers. Lia followed all of the rules put forth. She has dealt with hate that goes far beyond a differing viewpoint. Now she is done swimming at the NCAA level. I hope it was worth it to slam her in the name of saving women's sports for really just the last week for a lot of you. I hope the people that feel so passionately about this support women's sports in other ways because most will not & will stop "caring" about women's sports altogether until they learn the name of another successful trans athlete in another random sport in a couple of years. At that point, it won't matter that there really aren't that many trans athletes. Once you learn of one successful trans athlete, it'll become all-consuming for whatever random reason. Or maybe it's not so random at all & there are partisan reasons for riling you up to zero in on one successful trans athlete. Maybe that'll drive you to vote a certain way because your way of life feels threatened. Maybe it's not about you & this issue is being wedged in a way that doesn't make any sense. Maybe.
When it comes to sports, you can’t let trans people compete because of the unfair advantage it inevitably creates. Women’s sports were created for a reason...
Just to be clear: no one - not even women who get branded evil despicable hateful "TERFs" like me - have an issue with "trans people" competing in women's sports. We object to male people competing in women's sports.
A female swimmer from Yale who "identifies as" a man also competed in the women's category at the NCAA championships. No one has made a peep of protest about that swimmer. And IMO, that's how it should be.
Female athletes belong in female sports because they are female. So long as they are not taking T, there's no reason on earth to exclude female athletes who "identify as" trans men - or who have any of the other newfangled gender identities so popular today, such as non-binary, vapogender, maverique, ace, what have you. Female sports - and female locker rooms - are for ALL female people simply because they are female.
No female persons should be excluded from girls or women's sports for having a gender identity different to their sex - or on any other grounds either, such as mode of dress, hair style, hair length, grooming habits, sexual orientation, race, ethnicity, religion, heritage, lineage, place of birth, genetics, health history and current status, marital status, childbearing history, class background, household income, politics, dietary habits, favorite bands, dislikes and likes, etc.
So this really isn't about barring "trans people" from women's sports. It's simply about barring male people. ALL male people should be kept out of women's sports, not just male people who identify as trans like Lia Thomas. Most of us who are well-versed on this topic oppose the inclusion of males with disorders/differences of male sex development like Caster Semenya in women's sports just as much as as we oppose the inclusion of normally developed males like Thomas.
This is why calling women like me "TERFs" is so stupid. Our feminism doesn't exclude trans people. It's simply feminism for and about female people. ALL female people of all kinds, no matter how they identify.
This is so disingenuous. You don't even refer to trans women or trans men or trans people, without putting it in quotation and you use the insidious label of 'trans-identified' to avoid acknowledging them and to imply these are people who say they are trans rather than actually being trans, which you don't recognize as existing. If you don't recognize trans identities as being valid, you definitely are excluding them.
Yes they were, according to the athletes themselves. There was a reason the athletes had to speak under conditions of anonymity. There is a reason they cited fears of reprisal. There is no dispute that their universities told them to shut up. That there was finally a small protest at Nationals is meaningless. The entire atmosphere was coercive.
I seem to recall Thomas breaking multiple records. Anyway if Thomas received criticism, it was well-deserved. People get criticized for the choices they make all the time. Thomas chose to compete against biological females knowing full well it was unfair. It was bullying for all intents and purposes. If that criticism bothers you, OK. If you think that such bullying was justified because Thomas's feelings and sense of self allegedly overrode everything else, Ok.
No it is not complicated. Biological males should not be competing in women's sports. You claim it is infrequent. So what? What is wrong is wrong, and as someone interested in fairness and fair play in sports I do not want to see it happen again. And again if it was so unimportant then there was no reason for Thomas to be competing against biological women in the first place. Sure seems important to you.
But I am sorry that people disagreeing with you hurts your feelings. If you want to claim that anyone who does not think that a biological male should be competing in women's sports is a bigot, whatever gets you through the day.
By allowing men to compete in women's sports, the NCAA is destroying opportunities for women, making a mockery of its championships, and perpetuating a fraud.
In Florida, we reject these lies and recognize Sarasota's Emma Weyant as the best women's swimmer in the 500y freestyle. pic.twitter.com/tBmFxFE3q6
She is not a biological female, she has zero chance of getting ovarian cancer, but she would have to be screened for prostate cancer. The female category in sport is there due to biological differences between males and females.
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