When will the vaccinated start showing health complications?

Judging by some of the posts here, the vaccines are already causing massive brain damage.

Or, maybe those with brain damage are more likely to have gotten the vaccine.

Hard to prove causation at this early stage.

Stay tuned.

They're causing health complications for all of us given that they are causing the generation of more targeted and selective variants that evade spike neutralizing antibodies. Unlike broad polyclonal immunity produced by natural infection, the targeted spike-directed immunity produced by vaccination forces the virus to evolve in a manner that places severe selection pressure on the spike protein.

cactus dik wrote:

3 months?

6?

1 yr?

What will happen when the vaccine starts killing people?? They will blame the flu?

Prominent MDs on multiple podcasts predict 30-50% of those vaccinated could die within a year. At what point will you guys wake up?

Don’t blame the messenger. I’m sure others like Steve the Addict came across this info.

You're a moron, and you should be banned from these boards for spreading crap like this.

JCLv.6.0 wrote:

They're causing health complications for all of us given that they are causing the generation of more targeted and selective variants that evade spike neutralizing antibodies. Unlike broad polyclonal immunity produced by natural infection, the targeted spike-directed immunity produced by vaccination forces the virus to evolve in a manner that places severe selection pressure on the spike protein.

This is not true.

1) There is more to immunity than antibodies. There is good evidence of strong T-cell driven immunity in vaccinated people

2)The spike protein is very immunogenic. Much of the immune response after natural infection is directed against it. That is why it was chosen as a vaccine target.

3) There is more chance of an immune evasion mutant evolving in someone unvaccinated because you get many, many more viral replication events.

4) All of the current partially immune evasive variants evolved in non-vaccinated populations or, maybe, in India against a population immunized with primarily inactivated virus vaccines.

The spike protein is incredibly important for infection, transmission, and immune response.

JCLv.6.0 wrote:

They're causing health complications for all of us given that they are causing the generation of more targeted and selective variants that evade spike neutralizing antibodies. Unlike broad polyclonal immunity produced by natural infection, the targeted spike-directed immunity produced by vaccination forces the virus to evolve in a manner that places severe selection pressure on the spike protein.

No... the spike protein is by far the most antigenic and effective antibody target. The other stuff barely moves the needle.

stop fearmongering

Hmmm. The COVIDiot Twins show up at the same time again.

My spider-senses are tingling (maybe I just have the COVID).

No studies have demonstrated better long term protection in terms of prevention of infections, hospitalizations or deaths with vaccines vs. natural immunity; No studies have demonstrated naturalizing IgG to the spike is a good surrogate marker for prevention of infections, hospitalizations, deaths; a recent 55k study showed zero breakthrough infections in persons w natural immunity vs. 0.7% breakthrough infection rate w vaccination. So, no, the studies thus far have demonstrated targeted anti-spike immunity to be subpar relative to natural immunity in terms of protection from break through infections.

JCLv.6.0 wrote:

No studies have demonstrated better long term protection in terms of prevention of infections, hospitalizations or deaths with vaccines vs. natural immunity; No studies have demonstrated naturalizing IgG to the spike is a good surrogate marker for prevention of infections, hospitalizations, deaths; a recent 55k study showed zero breakthrough infections in persons w natural immunity vs. 0.7% breakthrough infection rate w vaccination. So, no, the studies thus far have demonstrated targeted anti-spike immunity to be subpar relative to natural immunity in terms of protection from break through infections.

WTF are you talking about?

JCLv.6.0 wrote:

No studies have demonstrated better long term protection in terms of prevention of infections, hospitalizations or deaths with vaccines vs. natural immunity; No studies have demonstrated naturalizing IgG to the spike is a good surrogate marker for prevention of infections, hospitalizations, deaths; a recent 55k study showed zero breakthrough infections in persons w natural immunity vs. 0.7% breakthrough infection rate w vaccination. So, no, the studies thus far have demonstrated targeted anti-spike immunity to be subpar relative to natural immunity in terms of protection from break through infections.

WTF are you talking about?

JCLv.6.0 wrote:

No studies have demonstrated better long term protection in terms of prevention of infections, hospitalizations or deaths with vaccines vs. natural immunity; No studies have demonstrated naturalizing IgG to the spike is a good surrogate marker for prevention of infections, hospitalizations, deaths; a recent 55k study showed zero breakthrough infections in persons w natural immunity vs. 0.7% breakthrough infection rate w vaccination. So, no, the studies thus far have demonstrated targeted anti-spike immunity to be subpar relative to natural immunity in terms of protection from break through infections.

WTF are you talking about?

The vaccines caused this ? Nah. Must have been heartburn from bacon double cheeseburgers. You know how much crap kids eat.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/06/10/covid-vaccine-cdc-says-heart-inflammation-cases-in-16-to-24-year-olds-higher-than-expected-after-second-shot.html

I'll summarize how ignorant you are:

1) Reinfection is not that rare in place with "natural immunity," especially with variants. Remember infection is more likely to give rise to variants as you get many many orders of magnitude more viral replication events in an vaccinated person as opposed to vaccinated people.

2) Even previously infected people see a 4-5 log increase in antibodies after two doses of the vaccine. (Vaccine provide additional benefit in previously infected people)

3) Neutralizing Ab levels ARE predictive of immune protection.

Those studies are flawed in that they fail to make the comparison w broad IgG, IgA, IgM and T-cell based profile seen in ppl w natural immunity. Further those are short term, in vitro and modeled data. I want to know, are vaccinated ppl protected to the same degree as ppl w natural immunity. The 56K person study indicates vaccination is less protective in terms of preventing PCR+ test vs. natural immunity. For example, Natural immunity produces quiescent memory B cells in the bone marrow. This is not yet been shown in vaccinated individuals. Further, no studies to date have demonstrated IgA immunity at critical mucosal surfaces w vaccination whereas this does happen w natural immunity.

I'm going the natural immunity route. The rest of you suckers can get annual COVID boosters.

JCLv.6.0 wrote:

Those studies are flawed in that they fail to make the comparison w broad IgG, IgA, IgM and T-cell based profile seen in ppl w natural immunity. Further those are short term, in vitro and modeled data. I want to know, are vaccinated ppl protected to the same degree as ppl w natural immunity. The 56K person study indicates vaccination is less protective in terms of preventing PCR+ test vs. natural immunity. For example, Natural immunity produces quiescent memory B cells in the bone marrow. This is not yet been shown in vaccinated individuals. Further, no studies to date have demonstrated IgA immunity at critical mucosal surfaces w vaccination whereas this does happen w natural immunity.

I'm going the natural immunity route. The rest of you suckers can get annual COVID boosters.

Correct! T cells are likely the key for very long term immune response. All data point to a robust T cell response from the vaccines. In fact T cell responses appear to be stronger in vaccinated people than in recovered people.

As for the advantages in diversity/protectivity of natural immune response...

The evidence from Manaus is pretty inconvenient then... no?

Good call to just ignore it!

You're learning the correct way to troll

Again, you are wrong. Robust, broad Tcell immunity is key for minimizing symptoms and quick clearance of the virus post-infection. The problem is if one does not develop broad Tcell immunity when you're young and healthy you will not have it later in life when you need it. Natural infection produces T-Cell immunity against the entire virus including the envelope protein, the Nucleocapsid protein, the replicase protein etc. Further, it is becoming clear that this virus not only binds and infects via the spike protein but also does so passively via cell-cell projections causing cellular fusion and production of multinucleated cells. The latter mode of transmission is resistant to IgG Ab/vaccines. No surprise the Indian Delta variant has evolved to demonstrate enhanced cell-cell transmission- aka is more resistant to the vaccines (surprise!! Variants evolving to evade targeted spike-directed vaccines and therapeutics). So this shows your in vitro IgG neutralization assays, really, at the end of the day are a very poor clinical correlates of protection. Your siloed understanding of this virus is underwhelming. Stop internalizing all the information that has been spoon fed to you and open your eyes.

No comment on Manaus yet.... telling :)

No vaccines are completely protective, they never will be. Even 75% effectivity (see: Delta variant) makes widespread transmission difficult.

If your threshold is complete protection then NOTHING will ever satisfy you.

Infection driven immunity falls on a wide spectrum. You cannot ensure a strong response, ad it's hard to test for adequate response from prior infection. Allowing mass infections is going to provide orders of magnitudes more replication events, variation, and selection (another fact you refuse to acknowledge) - and carries enormous cost to a population...

Yes it's possible that other viral epitopes are useful for driving immune response but the spike is by far the most antigenic and potent. The most important epitopes for immunity overlap with the important regions for receptor binding... making selection for increased potency but decreased neutralization very difficult.

You are taking all the exceptions and edge cases and making them the focus. There are many more exceptions and edge cases to infection driven immunity.

You do seem to have read some fringe blogs and can spam buzzwords though. One of the better trolls around here.

JCLv.6.0 wrote:

(surprise!! Variants evolving to evade targeted spike-directed vaccines and therapeutics).

Remind me where in India people are getting vaccinated using spike-directed vaccines?

You've built those whole scientific just-so story about how certain vaccines are bad that is just getting flattened by real world data.

I understand that you want the vaccines to fail, all denier-fearmongers do, but the mRNA vaccines appear to be the -best- vaccines we have against the virus and variants.

At some point you need to revisit your complicated model if it doesn't match reality, rather than adding more epicycles to keep it on life-support.

"If you ignore all data counter to my beliefs then I am correct"

Harambe wrote:

JCLv.6.0 wrote:

(surprise!! Variants evolving to evade targeted spike-directed vaccines and therapeutics).

Remind me where in India people are getting vaccinated using spike-directed vaccines?

You've built those whole scientific just-so story about how certain vaccines are bad that is just getting flattened by real world data.

I understand that you want the vaccines to fail, all denier-fearmongers do, but the mRNA vaccines appear to be the -best- vaccines we have against the virus and variants.

At some point you need to revisit your complicated model if it doesn't match reality, rather than adding more epicycles to keep it on life-support.