Significant loss of respect for Drew Hunter on this thing. Sounds like a mama’s boy that is easily influenced.
Significant loss of respect for Drew Hunter on this thing. Sounds like a mama’s boy that is easily influenced.
GTFO! At least Tammy admits her allegiance. I seriously think you are Sam Parsons.
Heartless wrote:
I know I post for YMMV when I post this “reminder”...
https://d2779tscntxxsw.cloudfront.net/56d9aae62bf65.jpeg#NeverForget
I think few will forget how these ingrates stabbed the REAL Tinman in the back.
High Fidelity wrote:
At some point all of these “layered” workouts are too cute by half.
So a Tinman workout is like some 600s, some 200s, then two miles at tempo
Meanwhile Ben True is doing 12 x 600 at 1:33 -1:30
Guess who’s going to win in a race
How do we know what True is doing? Is he on strava? Do guys regularly post their workouts?
Scarecrow elite wrote:
There are 2 problems here that I see:
1. Tom should have negotiated and secured a big boy, real professional coach, contract. You don't work for a "professional" team for side gig money.
2. Tom should have had a lawyer involved to ensure that his name/brand was his property at least at some ownership level, with the proper buy-out clauses in place in the event of separation.
Because he did not do these things he is out on his butt (maybe for good reason, idk) and the youtube crew can continue to profit off the brand they built that includes his name. Seems he really got the short end of the stick perhaps by his own lack of initiative to get organized years ago.
All of that is true but you left out the third key part.
3. They should give his god damn name back to him. Drew has made a ton of money. Call it the axe and hammer track club and be done with it. I get why doing it in the middle of the season isn't easy but it just needs to be done.
rojo wrote:
High Fidelity wrote:
At some point all of these “layered” workouts are too cute by half.
So a Tinman workout is like some 600s, some 200s, then two miles at tempo
Meanwhile Ben True is doing 12 x 600 at 1:33 -1:30
Guess who’s going to win in a race
How do we know what True is doing? Is he on strava? Do guys regularly post their workouts?
Yes he’s on Strava. Coached by Ray Treacy I believe. Tempos, hard 100s and 200s, repeats at pace, and long runs
any truth here wrote:
kipudgy wrote:
This is correct. LOL that mummy thinks she’s a better coach than Tom. They f***ed him over real good.
No, Tinman f***ed over the athletes. They've been hurt constantly and they've run like sh*t. He got fired for poor performance. The athletes didn't owe him a damn thing.
Tinman's entire career is built on the back of Drew Hunter's success and nothing else. Tinman should forever be thankful for Drew Hunter.
Tinman didn't ** over anyone. He did the best he could. The atheltes may not owe him anything legally but I would say morally they do. This guy moved his entire family to try to help them. It's just an unfortunate situation. It's one reason why people tell friends to never do business together. You never think it will end badly but it often does.
Playing devil's advocate here, couldn't you argue Joan Hunter's success is entriely built on the back of Tinman? She was like an 800 runner who probably hammered all the time. He showed her the threshold light. She used that to become a top master and then used that same workout philosophy to have a team win NXN.
I think both sides should be thankful for the other.
RunnerConnection wrote:
Wow, there are a lot of folks on here speculating this or that about this entire situation with Coach Tinman, Tinman Elite and Drew. Here are the facts because I feel this needs to be shared to stop all the BS comments on this thread. Time to rock-n-roll!
Fact: Coach Tinman did not leave Tinman Elite. He was told over the phone that his services were no longer needed. The team voted by the raise of a hand "yes" or "no". He was told that the team voted unanimously "no we don't want his coaching services". Not every athlete on the team really agreed to this, but they had no choice because it was not an anonymous voting system. The guys that wanted to stay with Coach Tinman had no choice, but to agree, because they would not have the financial backing to continue their running career. Ya, what a shame! Here is the dinger, they never gave Coach Tinman a reason for letting him go. Even Drew never told his Coach. How unprofessional on their part...pretty sad.
Fact: I have a hunch that the Tinman guys didn't like their Head Coach giving them friendly reminders in their team meetings to quit the F- bombing posts and inappropriate gestures on their social media. Any Head Coach for any team wants their team to display a good image to the public...especially a semi-pro team that is popular with today's youth. You certainly don't see other professional running teams doing this. But no Tinman Elite runners think its cool, hip, to flip the bird and use profanity on your social medial posts. As a parent I wouldn't want my kid to follow Tinman Elite just for that one reason.
Fact: Coach Tinman never had a contract with Adidas!
Fact: Coach Tinman has nothing to do with the Hammer & Axe training plans or $$ gained from them. They are cookie cutter plans derived from what they have learned from Tinman. Do you really think these guys have the credentials to Coach your middle school kids or high school kids. Heck no! Tinman has credentials and proven experience with results. PhD in Health & Human Performance/Exercise Science, USATF Level 3 in: Youth Specialization and Endurance Coaching, plus Level 5 IAAF Elite Endurance Certification and former collegiate coaching. None of the Tinman Elite runners have any experience coaching, nor credentials. They are using a dummied down version of Coach Tinman's training just to make $. They were told to not use Coach Tinman's training methods for their personal gains financially.
Fact: Coach Tinman coached most of the Tinman guys for free for one year before being asked to relocate to Colorado and be the Head Coach for Tinman Elite. He was paid a small monthly salary of a couple thousand, compared to what other Head Coaches make, which is $75k to $300K or more. Yes, I agree he should of had a formal contract before making the move from Idaho to Colorado.
Fact: Drew paid his Coach for a very small salary (a beginners teacher salary) and they did have a good relationship, until a certain individual got involved. Jealousy might be the evil doer behind all this.
Fact: Drew has a big heart and helped finance several of the Tinman Elite guys to help this club get started. Coach Tinman gave up a lot financially to help in the cause too. Unselfish acts by both.
Fact: Coach Tinman has not received one penny for all the Tinman merchandise sold. He encouraged the guys to start selling merchandise to help support their needs such as: strength coach fees, massage therapy, nutritionist, chiro fees, traveling, entry, the list is endless. They needed something to help them pay for all the little things that make a difference to get to the next level like the big dawgs in the running world Nike, New Balance, Brooks Beast etc.
Fact: Coach Tinman did not control the Tinman Elite. They controlled him. He had no say in what meets to attend, where to stay, when to arrive , training places, etc. So if Coach Tinman advised them to run in this meet or go here to train...it was planned then oops all of sudden the boys didn't want to attend at the last minute. Coach Tinman would make arrangements to travel for training camps, show up, and then some of the guys would change their plans at a moments notice....not show up.
Fact: Coach Tinman has helped Joan for many years with her training plans. He gave her endless free advise on a moments notice either via email or a phone call to adjust training for her team and individual runners on her high school team. His help aided in her team success when she needed it. Yes there is nothing wrong from learning from others. It helps you become a better coach. Coach Tinman NEVER charged Joan any money for his help.
Fact: Coach Tinman's Elite runners don't always get injured. Have you ever thought that other contributing factors outside of training methods, play into how runners may get injured? Not following coaches training plan, sleep, running in meets not advised, running hard on easy days, not following through with physical therapy or massage therapy, doing other sporting activities that could cause you to get injured, or most importantly lack of proper nutrition. This team paved their own destiny, by doing what they wanted and when they wanted to do this or that.
Fact: Coach Tinman does not go behind High School Coaches to coach athletes on their teams. He asks the athletes parents to talk to the Head Coach first to make sure there will be no conflicts. If there are conflicts he does not Coach the athlete. Many times he ends up talking and working with the Head Coach for the benefit of the entire team. He charges a fair amount just like any other coaching service. He has to pay his bills just like you and support his family!
Fact: A few of you call Coach Tinman a dick based on you listening to his podcasts or watching his video's. The man has a PhD, he is full of knowledge and when he gets on a roll, yes he likes to share and educate just like Vigil. How on earth can you judge a person without even meeting them? Coach Tinman gets endless emails and telephone calls from coaches, parents, and runners from all over the world and responds to them. I would not exactly call him a dick for doing this. Don't judge anyone until you have met them in person or talked to them.
I'm furious and completely disappointed in the Tinman Elite team and what you have done not only to Coach "Tinman" Schwartz, but to my entire family. You took advantage of him, you used him and abused him. You took his name "Tinman" which was well known before you even existed and profit $$$. Heck, you didn't even give our family a small % of what you profit off his name, which is unethical. I myself wanted to share this information because the truth needs to be told. I'm tired of people bashing and speculating this and that. I guess we as a family learned a valuable lesson, that is to never trust a bunch of 20 year old's and relocate without a solid contract backed by a lawyer. We will move on with our lives, as you will too. I just ask that you NEVER do this to another Coach...the way you did this to my husband and my family. It was wrong, unprofessional, immature and completely petty. You still have not given my husband ONE reason as to why you let him go. It certainly has nothing to do with your performances. The majority of you guys have run PR's under my husbands guidance.
Lastly, Drew I sure wished you would of stuck to your promise of continuing to work with Coach Tinman. My husband believed in you and we moved to Colorado to support you! You distanced yourself from him, blamed him for your performance when you did not do the little things needed to take care of yourself, you certainly didn't listen to his advise, and trained differently then what he prescribed for you. You were also influenced by your buddy, the media and your Mom. My advise: Have a growth mindset, make your own decisions, act like a professional runner, and focus on YOUR FUTURE, not the Tinman Elite Team. Control your own destiny or someone else will!
Best,
Tammy Schwartz
LappedMiler wrote:
Yep, it may be true, and then again, IT MAY BE LIKE MOST DIVORCE CASES EVER.
OK, I was wondering exactly why you're so pissed off, and here's the reveal.
So did the b*tch clean you out or what?
That house in Boulder someone said was bought for $900+ is now valued at close to $1.2 million and climbing fast. Even if Hunter is done running in 2 years, he can hang out and rent the place out to the same kind of sorta-fast guys with zero Olympic hopes who occupy the roster now, and join a long line of ex elites doing the same thing
People forget that Boulder has always had a HUUUUGE turnover of 13:45, 29:00 guys. Seems like now more of them have parents paying their entire way rather than waiting tables or whatever like 20 years ago, but in the end it doesn't matter who's financing....some people thrive and do the work, others quickly latch on to the brewery scene, gain 10 pounds, drop the morning runs/doubles and eventually blame whoever is coaching 'em for their own lack of necessary focus.
Drew Hunter isn't done because of his form, it's cause he doesn't want to train enough or make the right adjustments so he can stop getting hurt when increasing his volume. Anyone can see this, it's fact not opinion!
te5n1k wrote:
Raymond wrote:
I think Tinman is a very knowledgeable coach, but attracts negativity because of his personality.
which is funny because this thread is all about how he is such a great person, but whenever i hear him talk he comes off as an arrogant prick and seems difficult to talk to. i do believe he cares deeply for his athletes; however, calling him a great guy seems like a stretch and just shows people are clearly sympathetic towards him right now....and i would agree that TME seem to be screwing him over right now and handling the situation overall very poorly.
What? I just read 7 pages and this thread is most certainly not about “how he is such a great person.”
It’s 75% about coaching and Drew. Very little about Tom’s personality and whether he’s a great person or not.
Former DIII wrote:
FACT: NONE of the Tinman elite wanted their dirty laundry aired on letsrun.com. It is outrageous that you think it is appropriate to smear DH and the rest of TME (regardless of if they have fault or not) because of some mindless speculation by anonymous message board posters.
How are they being smeared? A group called the Tinman elite fired their coach Tinman. Some people think tha'ts a good move, some people don't and others think it's a good move but feel personally for Schwartz. People then started talking about it. Tom's wife has now poster her version of the story.
I don't get why everyone thinks everything has to be one side or the other. I said a) I think tom is a good coach b) I totally get why Drew might want a new coach. c) Give him his name back.
For some reason in 2021, any criticism is viewed as a smear job. Grow up. No one is perfect.
All relationships eventually end whether through death, divorce, breakup etc.
As for not wanting it to get out ther, that's true. Neither party wanted that. When we heard Tinman was no longer coaching the group, Jonathan called Tom and said he was no longer coach ing but the guys wanted it not talked about until after the Trials and Tom wanted it kept quiet as he was worried it would impact his job search. We tried to honor that request. So we deleted a few threads but I soon realized there was no way this was sustainable. Threads were popping up about it and it was on instragram. It's not right for me to delete factual threads. This news was out there. Someone needed to be the adult in the room and adcknowledge it. Knowing that the relationship was shattered from talking to Jonathan, I tried to help all of them out by reaching out to them and have them take the high road with gracious statements.
I had never spoken to Tom in my life before but called him up, told him what I knew and told him I thought he should issue a statement. That's what he did. I then asked Drew and Joan for a response.
Why people wouldn't expect the public to react to a team that has a huge social media presence dropping their namesake coach is beyond me. If I was Tom or Drew, I 'd just ignore what's written on here.
Now I have since defended Tom's coaching on here as it's clear from talking to him for 30 minutes that he gets running. I don't l ike people bashing one side. I also said it was totally understandably that Drew would leave. Let's stop making this a soap opera.
hemorrhoid wrote:
RunnerConnection wrote:
Wow, there are a lot of folks on here speculating this or that about this entire situation with Coach Tinman, Tinman Elite and Drew. Here are the facts because I feel this needs to be shared to stop all the BS comments on this thread. Time to rock-n-roll!
People need to realize that their words have consequences. We have Tinman’s wife posting on here, clearly hurt by what everyone is saying about her husband. Tom has inspired countless athletes, especially at the high school level, and he deserves the respect of the running community.
With that said, Drew is a young guy who makes mistakes. That doesn’t make the situation any better, but it puts things into perspective. He has some growing up to do—but just like Tom, he has inspired countless young runners. And for that I respect him.
Yep! And college would have been a great place to do that growing up. Going pro out of hs is an awful decision in terms of basic adult development.
ocracoke wrote:
hemorrhoid wrote:
People need to realize that their words have consequences. We have Tinman’s wife posting on here, clearly hurt by what everyone is saying about her husband. Tom has inspired countless athletes, especially at the high school level, and he deserves the respect of the running community.
With that said, Drew is a young guy who makes mistakes. That doesn’t make the situation any better, but it puts things into perspective. He has some growing up to do—but just like Tom, he has inspired countless young runners. And for that I respect him.
Yep! And college would have been a great place to do that growing up. Going pro out of hs is an awful decision in terms of basic adult development.
This has always been my stance. Unless you're Jakob Ingebrigsten and NCAA competition would be a joke, just go to college.
As every private coach knows...you're only a coach for as long as people show up.
Good luck to Tom but I am sure he will be fine. TME now that will be interesting. Buckle up!
rojo wrote:
How do we know what True is doing? Is he on strava? Do guys regularly post their workouts?
I’m super offended you don’t read any of my posts
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1cGyECmtnQwmLzfFXklwEywUeYG69IaunD8GhIq5ghbw/edithttps://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jea_nGALhC4OcQXDwjiFXVM2HYG1tm3Fgx3dR5u2i1I/editGreat work Rojo. You've reported this very fairly.
Rojo he wasn't referring to you, he was referring to Tinman's wife insulting all the members of the group.
rojo wrote:
Scarecrow elite wrote:
There are 2 problems here that I see:
1. Tom should have negotiated and secured a big boy, real professional coach, contract. You don't work for a "professional" team for side gig money.
2. Tom should have had a lawyer involved to ensure that his name/brand was his property at least at some ownership level, with the proper buy-out clauses in place in the event of separation.
Because he did not do these things he is out on his butt (maybe for good reason, idk) and the youtube crew can continue to profit off the brand they built that includes his name. Seems he really got the short end of the stick perhaps by his own lack of initiative to get organized years ago.
All of that is true but you left out the third key part.
3. They should give his god damn name back to him. Drew at least has made millions. Call it the axe and hammer track club and be done with it.
“Millions”? Huh?
Note by rojo. OK. I changed it to say, "Drew has made a ton of money." Lots of people have heard that Hunter had a deal that was 10 years and multiple hundreds of k per year so that would ultimately results in millions.
Dr. Pepper wrote:
I wonder if the whole situation worked better when Tinman was coaching TME remotely.
1) He didn't have to see some of the childish b.s. on a weekly basis.
2) His personality may be grating as a coach you see daily.
You would think having a coach there on a daily basis would increase accountability, but maybe it didn't in this case. The flipping the bird advice could have a "get off my lawn feel" if delivered a certain way.
The fact he uprooted his family without a long-term deal is head-scratching. Basically put his faith in the Hunters that it would work out.
Bingo. Great post.
Just looking back at my own experience, I think John Kellogg would be a much better coach remotely than in person. John never watched Weldon run in person post-collegiately. With Joh not around, he couldn't freak out about Weldon not sleeping or eating or whatever.
de etat wrote:
rojo wrote:
All of that is true but you left out the third key part.
3. They should give his god damn name back to him. Drew at least has made millions. Call it the axe and hammer track club and be done with it.
“Millions”? Huh?
Yes millions, he got a 10 yr deal from Adidas.
