WTF SERIOUSLY: Lornah Salpeter just ran 2:19:46 Prague ein

Voice of reasonable wrote:

Another reasonable response:

Even Paula ran slower than Bikila.

Not the Bikila of 1960.

I love you doping apologists. It's always superior training that explains it for you, as though great runners in the past had no idea what they were doing and sat around on the a*ses all day. But as coaches it also inflates your importance, as though you have the holy grail of knowledge. It is bs of course. Most improvements in sport now are chemical. That's where the real expertise is to be found, not in your rehashing tired old formulas of interval training and the like.

Testosterone testing claims shot put and discus are the cleanest events. However, Ross Tucker explained this as roided up throwers turning up at the WCs knowing that they are going to be tested so they cut right back months in advance and give almost deprived readings. The same is likely for marathoners, they probably starve themselves of epo etc in the last few weeks to bring off scores below suspicion thresholds and because they only race once or maybe twice a year it is very easy not to glow. A doped up middle distance runner is likely tested far more in season.

I'm sorry you are so deluded. Yes, even the Bikila of 1960 was 9 seconds faster than Paula. Your original goal post compared Salpeter's 2:19:46, 4m30 slower, to 1960 Bikila. Your latest goal post still fails. Try moving them again.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Voice of reasonable wrote:

Another reasonable response:

Even Paula ran slower than Bikila.

Not the Bikila of 1960.

Thanks for sharing your deep-rooted beliefs.

Armstronglivs wrote:

I love you doping apologists. It's always superior training that explains it for you, as though great runners in the past had no idea what they were doing and sat around on the a*ses all day. But as coaches it also inflates your importance, as though you have the holy grail of knowledge. It is bs of course. Most improvements in sport now are chemical. That's where the real expertise is to be found, not in your rehashing tired old formulas of interval training and the like.

VIPAM wrote:

The improvements this former Kenyan now runs for Isarel is unmatched over 2 1/2 years.

Marathon

2:40 to 2:24:17 to 2:19:46

Guess she gonna skip sub 31 track 10000m and go to sub 30 minute this year. Big jump last year to run low 31 minute track 10000m.

She can avoid out of season testing in Israel at least as easily as in E. Africa. Good thing she can run, otherwise she'd have been deported like most other Africans who end up in Israel, definitely not a great place for Africans. Go ahead, look it up.

34 Olajuwon wrote:

Don't bother with him, Renato. He never admits he is wrong even when it is clearly shown to him.

Don't bother with Renato. At least not until he tells the truth about EPO. Along with his athletes and their PED use.

Armstronglivs wrote:

I love you doping apologists. It's always superior training that explains it for you, as though great runners in the past had no idea what they were doing and sat around on the a*ses all day. But as coaches it also inflates your importance, as though you have the holy grail of knowledge. It is bs of course. Most improvements in sport now are chemical. That's where the real expertise is to be found, not in your rehashing tired old formulas of interval training and the like.

+1

Well said.

Voice of reasonable wrote:

I'm sorry you are so deluded.

Yes, even the Bikila of 1960 was 9 seconds faster than Paula.

Your original goal post compared Salpeter's 2:19:46, 4m30 slower, to 1960 Bikila.

Your latest goal post still fails. Try moving them again.

Armstronglivs wrote:

Not the Bikila of 1960.

You think 9 secs difference in a marathon between a man and woman shows they are in a different class from each other? An absurd argument. Bikila was a giant of marathon running. Women - of no particular distinction - are now running times that he and other men - and I did stress other male competitors and not just Bikila - were running in the early 60's. Bikila and his peers were still winning in sub-2.20 times then - as Salpeter has just done now. But when I point out that in no other running event do women come close to male times you can offer no explanation other than to say they are different events. Of course they are - but that is not an explanation. Why are women not running 1.46 or thereabouts for 800m, which is what men were doing in 1960? You ignore the most likely explanation, which is that the most dramatic improvements in women's running, especially in the aerobic events, are the result of doping - as they are in most sports today.

rekrunner wrote:

Thanks for sharing your deep-rooted beliefs.

Armstronglivs wrote:

I love you doping apologists. It's always superior training that explains it for you, as though great runners in the past had no idea what they were doing and sat around on the a*ses all day. But as coaches it also inflates your importance, as though you have the holy grail of knowledge. It is bs of course. Most improvements in sport now are chemical. That's where the real expertise is to be found, not in your rehashing tired old formulas of interval training and the like.

You're welcome.

4 years later Bikila ran 2:12. He was not a 2:15 class runner but in a different class. By the end of the 1960s, men were running 2:08 and 2:09, likely due to paradigm changes in training because of the success of coaches like Lydiard. "800m is a different event" is reason enough. The two events have nothing in common. Why not compare it to NASCAR? The 800m has different physiological demands and different histories across different timelines. There is no reason to think that 1960 would represent the same milestone for the different events. This makes the analogy unreasonable.

The point is not that women runners today match the best that runners like Bikila achieved in their careers or what male runners achieved later, but that women are now running comparable times to the top men circa 1960. I also said comparable times, not better - or even exactly the same - but in that ball-park. You struggle to grasp that. Secondly, if they are now matching times run by men in the past in the marathon, wouldn't we expect the same or similar trends in other running events, especially those that are aerobic in nature? But we don't see that. You simply say they are different events, as though that is explanation enough. It isn't; they are running events, some of which require elite levels of stamina - as the marathon does. Comparisons are valid.

I believe the dramatic improvements in women's distance running includes doping - but not solely - but it is enough to put them on a par now with top males in the past. Superior training just doesn't cut it as an adequate explanation.

You continue to show your total ignorance about the history of training.

When Ingrid Kristiansen ran marathon in 2:21:06 in 1985, there were NO Kenyan athletes trying to run marathon.

Still 10 years ago, also the best Kenyan coaches used to coach women with no more than half mileage of men, and I fought with several top coaches for explaining that the distances were the same, so also training had to be the same.

Till 1968, the longest official distance for women was... 800m. The first official championship where there was the event of 1500m were the European Championships 1969. In the women field, there was not any culture about endurance, and African women were not interested in athletics.

Till Olympic Trials 1996, for example, in Kenya women were not allowed to compete if already married, and for that reason there were only teenagers running, of course not long distances.

The first Marathon runner, woman, in Kenya, was Catherine Ndereba, who when was an athlete had all the preparation in Japan (like Douglas Wakhiiuri in the men's field).

So, it's totally ridiculous to compare the situation, in Marathon, of Kenyans, before 1990, with the situation of today, thinking the progress is mainly due to doping. BEFORE 1990, MARATHON RUNNERS DIDN'T EXIST IN KENYA.

BEFORE 1998, KENYAN WOMEN RUNNING MARATHON DIDN'T EXIST.

When you think women improved because of doping, you forget that in 1987 Rosa Mota was able running alonein 2:25 winning WCh with the second 9 minutes behind ; that in 1984 Joan Benoit Samuelson was able winning Olympics running alone in 2:24, and in 1985 in Chicago ran 2:21:21.

Why the European and American women were the best 30 years ago ? Because were the first to use a proper mileage for marathon, while in Kenya there was only intensity with very little mileage, and the athletes were very young.

You continue to speak about something don't know, and are really ridiculous in your maniacal belief about doping.

You are at the same level of people thinking the earth is flat...... and this means small brain, and no ability to learn and to understand what can be explained in proper way.

Salpeter is not in the same ballpark as Bikila of 1960, but she is in the same ballpark as Jim Peters of early 1950s, and also Ingrid Kristiansen from 1985. Your explanation of 800m similarities to the marathon doesn't cut it. It's their differences that make it different.

The best male marathon runner in 1960 was Ethiopian. The best female marathon runners today are Kenyan, running similar times to that male Ethiopian in 1960. So what do Kenyans have that Ethiopians didn't - or don't - have? (Yet the women's wr holders from 1500 to 10,000 are, strangely, Ethiopian.) When one top Kenyan runner after another, including a women's Olympic marathon champion, are busted for doping, it is impossible to make any convincing claim that simply to be Kenyan is to explain everything about their superiority. But to be a doped Kenyan does. We saw the same with the Chinese record-holders in the 90's and the E Bloc runners of the 70's and 80's, whose records still can't be beaten. Kenyan performances today are sullied with the same revelation that doping amongst their runners is widespread. It is more than naive for you to ignore this; it is purposely disingenuous. I do not claim that there will not have been improvements in times over the last fifty years, achieved naturally, but the extent of those improvements I believe has largely been fuelled by drugs. Of course the dopers and their apologists will do everything to deny this. As you do.

Yet the differences between male and female records across the board, from the sprints to the marathon, are in the region of 10-12%. That obviously includes the 800m. You say the 800 is different from the marathon - of course it is - but as with the sprints, they each have their specialists. But that they are different events doesn't explain why women have been closing the gap more in the marathon than in the shorter events.

+1

Well said.

Renato Canova wrote:

Specific, and not General Training, is the key for the improvements in every event, and you need to understand the big difference between RUNNING (that is what the most part of posters in LR do) and TRAINING, that is the answer to well determined and specific stimuli.

And doping can be also be a specific stimuli to augment training which translates to better performances in competition...nothing new there.

Too many Kenyans are testing positive left and right with some of their biggest stars to boot (e.g., Kiprop, Bett, Kisorio, Sumgong, Jeptoo, Jebet, Chepchirchir, etc.). And now three (3) ABP cases in just the last 3 months including the Half-Marathon WR holder; Abraham Kiptum!

I used to believe that Kenyans had some genetic makeup that made them superior distance runners - you know whole "born and bread to run" foundation. And then there's the old adage; World-class Kenyans come a dime a dozen and so forth.

I'm now thinking they have no more natural advantage then any other country and the foundation of their whole running success is built on PEDs/methods. It's incredible that anti-doping is nabbing top big name stars all the way down to their lesser known "B" runners. And a wide spectrum of runners are being caught from marathoners to the middle-distances to even the sprints!

I never thought I'd see day with this prevalent Kenyan doping. Watching Kenyan performances over the last 30 years, I thought this country is something special. Natural born runners who just trained harder than anyone else - is what I thought was the reason for their success and dominance.

But too many doping positives with too many stars has convinced me otherwise!

Kenyan athletics is now becoming a farce and a joke! ?

actually youre very wrong.the first kenyan female marathoner was pascaline wangui who competed back in the 1988,and 1992 olympics.angelina kanana followed soon after,then joyce chepchumba,and selina chirchir.all were 1996 olympians in the marathon.tegla loroupe,and sally barsosio emerged as very good distance track runners in the early to mid 90s,and before that susan sirma won bronze,in the 3000 meters in the 1991 world championships.apart from sally,these women were not teenagers.ill also throw in jane omoro,jane ngotho,esther kiplagat,delilah asiago and pauline konga.all were successful seniors,and trail blazers for kenyan women.catherine ndereba came later on,and she became the first truly world beating kenyan female marathoner.she really took it to another leval.