Wang Junxia - Was she on peds or was she on PEDs???

If the records were so weak, why couldn't even these athletes approach the times again and why have they not been approached in 20 years?

1993 was the year of the first sub 27.

You could say that was weak as it has been smashed and bettered by several men since.

* wrote:

If the records were so weak, why couldn't even these athletes approach the times again and why have they not been approached in 20 years?

1993 was the year of the first sub 27.

You could say that was weak as it has been smashed and bettered by several men since.

We've been through this. They have been approached or possibly even surpassed depending.

20 years? The men's 3000m hasn't been threatened since it was set 15 y ears ago even though there have been several athletes capable of running it.

You have no solid evidence for your opinions.

* wrote:

Give me the names of the people from Omega and the TNFN correspondent that was there.

The people in the stands didn't know what they were watching.

They were probably bused in.

I want to hear a first hand recap of the events from someone that was there.

No western person that actually witnessed this has come forth to speak of it to my knowledge.

Are you fine with those splits?

Let me turn this around.

At least 10,000 people witnessed this event. Most of those individuals were spectators. A large number of those individuals were athletes.

I see that a few people on this thread have proposed that the races were started on the wrong line or run a lap short.

Why don't YOU give ME the names of some people who claim that they saw something wrong with the race! I mean if you think about it, what spectator would blabber to the news that "nothing was wrong with this track race"? In contrast, a spectator would be MUCH more likely to blabber "THIS TRACK RACE IS A FARCE!!!"

What you're proposing is that the Chinese government bought the silence of every athlete and official at the race, along with all the spectators. You also claim that the spectators "didn't know what they were watching". Really?

1) How could 10,000+ spectators who came out to the National Athletics Competition not know what they were watching? And even in the unlikely event that they didn't, what about when they announce the events? Surely the average Chinese citizen knows that 10,000m is 25 laps on a 400m track right?

2) It's been 20 years, and the regime that was present at the time is no longer in power. If you know anything about Chinese politics, it's that the Communist Party isn't all that big on continuing things that were started earlier. Just recently, a power-switch took place and an extremely high-ranking official, Bo Xilai, who also happens to be the son of one of prominent Chinese politicians in the 1980s-90s was arrested and imprisoned for corruption during the Hu regime.

ANY Chinese citizen, whether layperson or athlete, could come forth and spill the conspiracy right now, and the present government wouldn't care. But they haven't.

Beyond that, there are the additional issues of:

1) Why there are video clips showing that the 1500m started and finished at the correct lines.

2) Why the Chinese officials at the time would only "conspire" to break womens' world records (especially considering Chinese culture emphasizes males over females)

3) Why the 1500m times were replicated in 1997.

hhnhn wrote:

We've been through this. They have been approached or possibly even surpassed depending.

20 years? The men's 3000m hasn't been threatened since it was set 15 y ears ago even though there have been several athletes capable of running it.

You have no solid evidence for your opinions.

There have been 11 performances within 5 seconds of Komen's record and it is not even a championship event.

The next best women's time outside of that Chinese meet is 15 seconds slower than Wang's 3000m record.

And that used to be a championship event for women.

The race that approached the women's 1500m race happened to also be an all Chinese field run in China. And I haven't seen video of that either. That doesn't help the case.

* wrote:

There have been 11 performances within 5 seconds of Komen's record and it is not even a championship event.

The next best women's time outside of that Chinese meet is 15 seconds slower than Wang's 3000m record.

And that used to be a championship event for women.

The race that approached the women's 1500m race happened to also be an all Chinese field run in China. And I haven't seen video of that either. That doesn't help the case.

The women's 3000 has not been a championship event since 1993.

None of the top current women have chased the 3000m record as the top men have.

There have been several performances since Wang's that are as good or better by multiple people.

Once again, none of your points have solid evidence or support.

It's interesting to look at the women's WRs for the major running distances and see which of them are within 10% of the men's WR for that distance:

100m: 10.49 x.9 = 9.44

[10.61 x.9 = 9.55 if you don't believe the wind gauge in Indy]

200m: 21.34 x.9 = 19.21

400m: 47.60 x.9 = 42.84

800m: 1:53.28 x.9 = 1:41.95

1500m: 3:50.46 x.9 = 3:27.41

3000m: 8:06.11 x.9 = 7:17.50

5000m: 14:11.15 x.9 = 12:46.04

100000m: 29:31.78 x.9 = 26:34.60

1/2 Mar: 65:50 x.9 = 59:15

M'thon: 2:15:25 x.9 = 2:01:53

What do we see? In the sprints, women on major steroids can get within 10% of men. At longer distances the only performances within 10% of a current men's WR are Wang Junxia's 3000m and Paula Radcliffe's Marathon.

How did they do it? I don't know.

For those of you who believe "everyone dopes" - how did these two dope better? Note in particular that the almost certainly doped women's 800m and 1500m WRs don't get within 10% of the men's records.

* wrote:

Here are her whacky spits where she suddenly increases her pace by 19s per 1000m on the 8th and 9th km, which would seems like it would be 100m quick. The last km is a little slower:

1km 02:54.7 02:54.7

2km 05:56.6 03:01.9

3km 08:59.2 03:02.6

4km 12:02.8 03:03.6

5km 15:05.7 03:02.9

6km 18:10.1 03:04.4

7km 21:14.4 03:04.3

8km 23:59.9 02:45.5 WHAT? (900m?)

9km 26:44.8 02:44.9 WHAT? (900m?)

10km 29:31.8 02:47.0 Maybe the last km could be fast

The final 3000 in 8:17 would have been a WR that would still stand today outside of this meet.

If those are the real splits, thanks for posting them.

I was fortunate by coincidence to see the last part of that race on a Spanish tv station, and Wang was absolutely flying. Compared to her World Championship a month earlier, there was no comparison with the pace. I was estatic to see that she'd run this time for 10000m.

push it to the limit wrote:

The problem with the short distance theory is that the men didn't run crazy times. Why would China dope the women, but not the men? I don't think the times are legit, but it's interesting.

Men may have ended up running tactically.

COULD SOMEONE PLEASE SUM UP THIS THREAD !!!

give a first draft .

two main anomalies that cant be explained by peds

excessive training ,etc .running races close can be

explained if on peds ,with crazy hct and steroids,

recovery is very possible,

just about .

1. THE splits are false ,

and all the 3000m times from race of 1993

i.e the race was 200m short and not the track .

2. wang was good but how good ,the 10000m wr is

possible if take away splits

and the 1500m is very possible take away splits

considering steroids and womens shorter distances.

3.

1500m times were replicated in 1997 as appropriate doses

of steroids for longer distances made this possible for

that nessary speed and endurance came from our friend epo.

now steroids in longer distances dont want too much and stress out liver and kidneys and lead to reduction in

overall functioning of system and then possible aerobic endurance when want maximum enhancement of both, this is not 800m or less where maximise steroid dose for women .

so need appropriate dose of steroids ,so these women never have to look like men .similarly for men in longer distances

look at doses lance ran ,just what many a mens distance

record holder would of ran.

enhance speed as best as possible without effecting aerobic

endurance.

eastern european women went to far with steroids

that effected overall endurance and blood doping not as good

why never able to match 1500m times without epo.

say that can up hct by 20 per cent with maximum blood transfusion and gives feel good factor next day but this might not reflect performance as say that 20-30% of red blood cells are dead due to storage process amongst other reasons why not as good as epo.

4.

where is this info for splits for 10000m and

1993 1500m coming from.

and how would they fix 3000m race rather than others

where are starting lines for 3000m are they easier to

just move 200m-150m up repeatly in heats and so on. versus 1500m( where not nessary as

have performance to run these times)

or versus 10000m lines

why not manipulate these lines again no need

as had athlete good enough in wang and focus

of maximum doping on starting day of champs

as she had the best endurance by far aswell as nessary

speed as rest of ma's athletes .

thoughts please .

not shorter track ,just starting line and only with 3000m

didnt mess with mens events as knew couldnt be done

nor be believed and with such doping was about womens

and ma's women to be precise ,so mens result shouldnt

matter and dont have any real anomalies .

also

your american fast 10,000m

from 2009-2012 can be explained by gw50

t3 isnt going to get you what rupp ran in 10000m

and could someone tell the magic cut off point for

hct for bioligical passport . as rupp and farah must be

in the 48-51 per cent range to be running 13 mins flat

for 5000m for low altitude runners ,

kenyas get more enhancement from a 48 hct due to having low

ones naturally and being from higher altitude .

hct fluctuates naturally but never above certain levels .

right .iaaf some clarity please.when will i get a warning

rekrunner wrote:

I asked what things NOP was doing that ruins the integrity of the sport. You gave me a list of successful results, but that doesn't answer what NOP is doing that lacks integrity.

Success in training, in and of itself, is not screwing up the integrity of the sport. On the contrary, success is a necessary part and desirable part of the sport. One could argue that Nike is providing necessary support and structure that has been lacking for decades, without mentioning drugs, or other banned methods. Their success will inspire the next generation.

Isn't a list of successful results the only thing being presented in the case of these Chinese runners? Oh, and a crack pot theory that the track was short and everyone was in on it.

Success inspiring the the next generation? Is Famiglietti mentioning that an alarming number of the fastest Americans of all time were on thyroids meds inspiring? Is Fleshmann mentioning that it is ridiculous that only one doctor is willing to diagnose all these athletes inspiring?

If you are a US college elite and have just graduated, you have the choice of either crossing over to the pharmaceutical grey area, or never making an Olympic or World Champ team. Truly inspiring.

J.R. wrote:

[quote]* wrote:

Here are her whacky spits where she suddenly increases her pace by 19s per 1000m on the 8th and 9th km, which would seems like it would be 100m quick. The last km is a little slower:

1km 02:54.7 02:54.7

2km 05:56.6 03:01.9

3km 08:59.2 03:02.6

4km 12:02.8 03:03.6

5km 15:05.7 03:02.9

6km 18:10.1 03:04.4

7km 21:14.4 03:04.3

8km 23:59.9 02:45.5 WHAT? (900m?)

9km 26:44.8 02:44.9 WHAT? (900m?)

10km 29:31.8 02:47.0 Maybe the last km could be fast

The final 3000 in 8:17 would have been a WR that would still stand today outside of this meet.

The last 3000m in 8:17 shows for certain that she was on something. That is like Farah finishing in 7:28 for his last 3000m

"But now we have it. In a statement of imbecilic deviousness the Chinese Olympic Committee triumphantly announced that the Misses Wang Junxia and Qu Yunxia, whose staggering new marks at 1,500, 3,000 and 10,000 metres have turned world athletics on its head, were tested for drugs and found blameless. In the same breath they conceded that 11 other of its athletes at the same meeting were tested positive. And then it failed to name them."

Read more:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/columnists/article-231634/Chinas-cheats-destroy-lifes-work.html#ixzz2gYUeG700

J.R. wrote:

If those are the real splits, thanks for posting them.

I was fortunate by coincidence to see the last part of that race on a Spanish tv station, and Wang was absolutely flying. Compared to her World Championship a month earlier, there was no comparison with the pace. I was estatic to see that she'd run this time for 10000m.

The splits came from older sources of discussions and are the same splits that are always repeated.

I have no idea how legitimate they are but they add up.

And the first 5K is reasonable at 15:05 yet still better than WR pace (at the time).

The closing makes no sense based on what we all know and have experienced in running.

I will say that I didn't believe it when Geb ran 12:44 for 5000m. I thought something was wrong.

But we have video of it and he subsequently ran 12:41 and then 12:39, all on video as well.

You say you saw the last part of the race on Spanish TV.

How much of the last part?

400m? 1000m? 3000m?

Closing in 2:47 would be flying and I think it is possible. It's 27:50 pace for a tenth of the race.

Her final 3K was 27:38 pace for nearly a third of the race, which gets harder to comprehend.

If you saw the final 3K let us know.

No one seems to have seen that much of the race.

* wrote:

No one seems to have seen that much of the race.

About 15 times as many people saw Wang and Qu run these absurd world records as saw Wilt score 100 points against the Knicks.

For comparison's sake, how many people saw Kim Jong-il shoot 38 under par?

Jeff Wigand wrote:

For comparison's sake, how many people saw Kim Jong-il shoot 38 under par?

He probably claims about 10,000.

But that's not the point. These people bused in from the street didn't know how long the track or even the distance was. They were there to applaud on command and smile into the camera. That's it.

Nutella1 wrote:

He probably claims about 10,000.

But that's not the point. These people bused in from the street didn't know how long the track or even the distance was. They were there to applaud on command and smile into the camera. That's it.

What evidence do you have of that?

And Track and Field News's correspondent? Omega's timers? The men's very ordinary results?

We have ordinary men's results. We have a reputable, foreign timing company (that times all the Diamond League meets and over 20 of the last 25 Olympic Games) and foreign correspondents that were all witness to what happened in Beijing in 1993 (and again in Shanghai four years later)

Why is a vast conspiracy involving thousands of people more believable than a rare combination of talent, unrestricted drug use and extreme training? How is that harder to believe than a vast conspiracy, for which, twenty years later, no one has spoken out on?

Every week there's a question on this board on how much better you can improve with drugs. These women were 2% better than the top women running under today's doping controls, while Lisovskaya's world record is more than 6% better than the very best Valerie Adams has ever thrown.

You know it couldn't have been a short track because the men ran about what you would expect.

You know they didn't adjust the start/finish lines because we have some clips (of the 1500m, for example) and because foreign observers were present.

Explain away Omega's timers in this conspiracy.

Explain away Track and Field News's correspondent on site.

Explain away Forrest Anderson and Manuel Ceneta who took these photos for Time/Life and AFP, respectively:

I wish that we had the same amount of commentary and documentation and eye witness discussions for the 1993 races as we did for Wilt's "alleged" 100 point game in 1962.

Even with the Chinese women, the question of integrity only arises if there was cheating. Ma is accused of doping his girls.It's the scale of the Chinese performances, and the lack of repeatability outside of China, that raises suspicion higher.If thyroid meds confer no advantage, and its use is within the rules, then there is no question of integrity.

this is our sport, deal withit wrote:

Isn't a list of successful results the only thing being presented in the case of these Chinese runners? Oh, and a crack pot theory that the track was short and everyone was in on it.

Success inspiring the the next generation? Is Famiglietti mentioning that an alarming number of the fastest Americans of all time were on thyroids meds inspiring? Is Fleshmann mentioning that it is ridiculous that only one doctor is willing to diagnose all these athletes inspiring?

If you are a US college elite and have just graduated, you have the choice of either crossing over to the pharmaceutical grey area, or never making an Olympic or World Champ team. Truly inspiring.