[quote]wellnow wrote:
There is much confusion over the definition of the words aerobic and anaerobic.
According to the popular definition, most people think that when they get out of breath towards the end of a 5000m race that they are "going into oxygen debt" or "going anaerobic"
/quote]
since we are pointing out confusing terms..... the term is NOT oxygen debt it is excess postexercise oxygen consumption (EPOC).
Andy Barber wrote: Moorcroft?
...
Take a look at Fig 5 on page 11 of:
http://www.britishmilersclub.com/bmcnews/1999spring.pdfHis fastest was at around 1.50 pace. ...
Thanks for that, Andy. Looks to be a fairly thorough (and I gather credible) accounting of the details of Moorcroft's training.
If I've done the math right, Moorcroft's 800 and 1500 pace at the time he ran them at his "PB" of ~ 82.8s/600 (55.2s/lap) were ~ 53.5s and ~ 56.8s. So it looks like in his "best workout" (I see he did 4 x 600 quite a lot, although most often at ~ 1500 pace with ~ 5 min rest if I've read the article correctly) was just about exactly midway between 800 and 1500 pace.
OK, so Moorcroft didn't run them at 800 pace. Anyone else?
so i should train for the 5k and my 1 and 2 mile times will improve also.
so is renato is saying that i should throw in some 200 like 16 x 200 but keep doing my mile repeats fast and hard
wellnow wrote:
Dave Moorcroft.
His autobiography, about six weeks before he broke the World record for 5000m he did this session at 1.46 pace.
It was one of his staples as recommended by his coach John Anderson, since the time they first began working together in 1970. In that year it was 4x600 in 100 seconds and gradually the intensity increased over the twelve years leading up to Moorcroft's best season.
Your early post:
wellnow wrote:
An example of a very hard workout that would challenge the aerobic energy system for an 800/1600 runner would be
4x600m @ 800m target pace. The recovery would be long, several minutes.
Obviously you have to build up to these sessions, over a period of months.
First. Your original 4X600m workout is advised for a 800m runner.
Second. Dave Moorcroft. He did it once in a lifetime 4X600m 82.8 avg 5min recovery. Once in lifetime workout that´s not something you can present as a good example to challenge the aerobic system.
Third. Since Dave pbs are 1:46.64/3:33.74/13:00:41 Dave once a life time 4X800m 82.8 avg would result in 1:50.53/800m so far so slow from his @800m pace. Most of the occasions that Dave did that workout the target was @1500m/mile pace and not @800m pace as you pretend.
Finally i´m right. In normal conditions that´s an impossible workout.
Hayduke wrote:
since we are pointing out confusing terms..... the term is NOT oxygen debt it is excess postexercise oxygen consumption (EPOC).
I will remember that in the last 100m.
The session was in early June, he said it was his best 4x600 ever, so I don't think it could have been a misprint.
Hayduke wrote:
[quote]wellnow wrote:
There is much confusion over the definition of the words aerobic and anaerobic.
According to the popular definition, most people think that when they get out of breath towards the end of a 5000m race that they are "going into oxygen debt" or "going anaerobic"
/quote]
since we are pointing out confusing terms..... the term is NOT oxygen debt it is excess postexercise oxygen consumption (EPOC).
I have already addressed the issue of EPOC.
g2 wrote:
so i should train for the 5k and my 1 and 2 mile times will improve also.
so is renato is saying that i should throw in some 200 like 16 x 200 but keep doing my mile repeats fast and hard
Yes, don't get too fixated on six minute mile pace during your hard sessions. You can run much faster for one mile, certainly sub 5 minutes.
You should be able to do 200's in 35 no problem. I suggest starting with 6 and building up to 10. 2-3 minutes recovery.
Two days before this session, run 4x 100 in 17, i.e. fast but not flat out, this will serve as a warm up for your 200's.
Two or three days later, 400's in 75 again start with 6 and build up to 10, 75-90 seconds recovery.
If you can do these sessions, you will be able to do tempo runs at six minute miles without hurting yourself.
Antonio, this is one of those letsrun misunderstandings.
I am not advising anyone to do that session, it was a suggestion of a very hard session aimed at improving the oxidation of lactate.
As I mentioned before, I have done 4x400 at a pace halfway beetween my 400 and 800 pace + 200 flat out.
The 200 was probably too fast, so I should have done 5x400
I am what Renato would call a very resistant runner, I need these types of sessions, but only a few such sessions each season.
Yes, don't get too fixated on six minute mile pace during your hard sessions. You can run much faster for one mile, certainly sub 5 minutes.
can you please clarify my 1600 pr is 5;38
Renato outlined his training principles when he first started posting here in september 2003.
In this thread he talks about the difference between what he calls the Fundamental Period of training, where the goal is to do all different types of workouts in order to improve general fitness, and the Specific Period of training, where you target race pace.
During the Fundamental Period, you train at all different paces
During the Specific Period, Renato recommends his 10 percent rule, where you don't do hard workouts more than 10% faster than race pace. He refers to the difference in paces as the Modulation. With the 10% rule, this narrow modulation helps to develop race pace better than a wide modulation.
So if your target was 5.20 for 1600 which is 80 seconds per lap, then your speed work is about 36 seconds for 200m
Despite limiting the fastest workouts, a runner will still be able to improve their times over distances longer and shorter than the target race pace.
Obviously there is a need for experimentation within these ideas, and it takes a lot of practice to find out what works for the individual.
The link for the above Renato post:
http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?board=1&id=222028&thread=222028
You say you have run 100 in 16?
How much faster can you run 100 if you practiced speed for a few weeks whilst still maintaining good mileage?
If you can run several repeats of 6 minutes for 1600 then you could very soon run that pace for 10k no problem.
Between your sprint and your endurance, you can run much faster times.
One other point before I go. Jan Olbrecht, a very famous and influential swimming coach talks about the need to balanc aerobic and anaerobic.
Olbrecht's says that you can develop sprint speed, and then gradually reduce it sligtly to an ideal maximum pace for your race, as training progresses.
I will explain this point in future posts.
thanks i got it.
are you serious?
so how much rest on the 200s and how many and how often do you recommned i do those?
Yes of course I'm serious, you have the speed and the endurance to run under 5 minutes for 1600, you just need to do the right kind of training.
I suggest 6 @ 35-36. As much recovery as you feel you need. This is not a hard session, but you will need to do about 4x100 in 17-17.5 that is fast but not flat out, about 2 days before, to get used to the speed.
Before you do those 100's and 200's have a long warm up at a good pace, and go easy on the days in between.
The 200's prepare you for the 400's in 75-76 you can do about 6 of these 2-3 days after your 200's This is a hard session, but not too hard.
You can build up to 10 200's and 10 400's at these paces if you do 6 in week one, 7 in week 2, 8 in week three, then two weeks before you do 9 and another 2 weeks before you do 10, then you will be ready to race around 5 minutes for the mile over the next few weeks.
Andy Barber wrote:
Moorcroft?
Now I remember where I've seen the figures for that session.
Take a look at Fig 5 on page 11 of:
http://www.britishmilersclub.com/bmcnews/1999spring.pdfHis fastest was at around 1.50 pace. Some were at more like 1500m pace (excluding the session where he was clearly knackered). That's by a man breaking the 5K WR taking on the pace after just 2 laps.
Not read the book. May be a misprint?
Thanks for the link Andy, the session I refered to in early June 1982 was 4x600 in average 82.6 so yes 1.50 pace, about halfway between 800 and 1500 pace.
I printed out the information, those 1000's are interesting and show the kind of pace a runner needs to break 13, which I'm sure Moorcroft could have done if he had run the race in Oslo with some company for a few more laps. I think he could have run under 12.55
About your question concerning heavy legs at the end of a long run.
This feeling can be gradual, if you are running on the flat or sudden if you are running uphill.
I think there are two main causes. One problem is that tired muscles gradually lose elasticity which causes them to become gradually less efficient. The neuromuscular co-ordination which delivers the nerve impulses to these muscles from the brain, becomes less and less, so there is nervous fatigue accompanying physical fatigue.
The other cause is the fast twitch fibers becoming glycogen depleted. When these fibers are low on glycogen, trying to increase the pace on an uphill near the end of a run causes pain in the legs, even though the pace is much lower than the pace you could have run up the hill (and without pain) at the beginning of the run.
The pain is acidosis, an increase in hydrogen ion concentration in the muscle. But why does this happen at a much lower speed at the end of the run?
When we have lots of glycogen stored in the muscles, we can produce more lactate. Lactate production reduces acidity a.k.a acidosis or hydrogen ion concentration, because lactate production consumes hydrogen ions. The hydrogen ions come from the anaerobic breakdown of glycogen, which increases for the first few seconds of an increase in pace.
At the end of a run, we want to get up that last hill at a quick pace, so we try to run it ambitiously, often a little too ambitiously, partly to test ourselves, and partly because we want to get more out of our training. This is the right approach, you are going to give yourself a much better training effect by running that last hill hard.
On the flat, the same problem, glycogen depletion, will make the pace become gradually harder, but even though the pace is often low and the lactate levels very low, you can still feel the effects of acidosis.