Harry Wilson believed that Steve Ovett could run 1:40 800m.

Why do you keep posting false information? Is it because you lack knowledge of the 800m event or are you just trying to be disonest?

All three Kipketer records were set with pace makers. Rudisha set three WR and the first two with pace makers.

Both Coe WRs were with pace makers. 79 was in Bislett Games in a set up scenario for him to break the record. Just watch the video, there's no race as nobody besides Coe follows the pace maker in 50s. The pace maker is hired by organizers with that purpose. That's what race directors will do, it is great for their event to be the 'owners' of the WR.

That makes 7 out of the last 8 WRs with pace makers in set up conditions.

Other significant attempts to break the WR that came close were also similar, from Cruz 1:41.77, Amos ridiculous first lap in Zurich that didn't end so well, Rudisha's 1:41.54 serious attempt in Paris 2012.

Only Rudisha's London 2012 solo run was a different race.

Again, you need to learn and research before you come here to post as you have no clue about the subject you are discussing.

I totally agree that he was at his best in actual races where he had to beat someone. This has been mentioned by many that knew him in person and by Ovett himself. He was a championship racer.

I personally don't see 1:42.5 as his absolute best, I think he had the potential to go a bit faster (1:42.1 - 1:42.4) but I believe anything faster than 1:42.5 is debatable. It is well possible that Ovett himself didn't believe he could run faster than 1:42.33, or even if he thought he could, the probability of succeeding would be low and there would be no point to risk a time trial race with high chances of "proving" Coe was indeed faster. After 81' there would be absolutely no doubt anyway, as his 1:41.73 was out of reach for anyone not named Cruz until Kipketer emerged.

I think Ovett was quite special. I don't recall any runner that had 21.7 speed, 13:20 strength (at least) and was capable of a 3:30 way out of his top shape. There must have been very few individuals with that engine throughout history.

I would love to go back in time and see what would happen if Ovett was to follow Coe in that Oslo attempt.

WRs are broken in fast races!

1:42.33 - PM up to 410m

1:41.73 - PM up to 460m

1:41.73 - PM up to 580m

1:41.24 - PM up to 420m

1:41.11 - PM up to 590m

1:41.09 - PM up to 460m

1:41.01 - PM up to 500m

1:40.91 - no PM

He's trying to convince people Snell has had two record races...

All his "knowledge" is based on some races from the 1960s and early 1970s which he remembers (often wrongly). All his views are based on this. There is no new information - which he often is presented with - that can change his view. It's fixed like some sort of mathematical proof. Any discussion with him is useless.

It's both. He is ignorant and he lies in an attempt to justify his ignorant opinions.

I'd add to that range, a road 10k that wasn't much more than 30 sec outside existing world best at the time. Of course, he also famously beat the in-form current GB marathon champion in a half-marathon in the middle of the track season, and barely broke a sweat..

In '66 Ryun broke the half mile record without pacemakers. In '68 Doubell equalled the 800 record in an Olympic final; when Juantorena broke the record in Montreal '76 he was his own pacemaker, in at least one of Kipketer's records he led at the bell, in Rudisha's records he front-ran. They were simply fast races - 3 of them were Olympic finals - and not "time trials". Furthermore, setting a record didn't need a fast first lap and positive splits; Ryun did it off a 53x first lap. The excuses here for Ovett are nonsense.

I've said nothing of the kind about Snell's records.

Most 800 races are not won from gun to tape, so effectively every winner has had a "pacemaker" in the runners ahead of them. Fast times - and records - have also been achieved without a particularly fast early pace and in fact even pace and sometimes negative splits would do the job. With the notable exception of Moscow, the conditions were always there for Ovett to run a fast time.

The 7 mentioned WRs have had PACEMAKERS - do you understand this? Athletes who had the job to require a fast - mostly decribed before - pace and then to go out (or finish in a slower time).

You have decided that any race led through the first lap by a runner who didn't win the race had a "pacemaker". But that is probably 90% of 800 races. As I pointed out above, most records in the event set from 1966 onwards were set without the use of a designated pacemaker - Ryun in '66, Doubell in '68, Wottle in '72, Juantorena in '76, and in one of Kipketer's records he led at the bell (including front-running his indoor record), and in two of Rudisha's records he front-ran. Records can be set - and are set - in races without pacemakers that are simply fast enough. Ryun did it with a negative split. Most of the 800 records in the last 60 years were not "time-trials" with a designated pacemaker. They were simply fast races. But Ovett is clearly a unique example of an 800 runner who never found himself in a fast enough race.

I have not decided anything - I have stated a fact: the mentioned 7 WRs have had pacemekers (runners who had the job to require a given pace for as long as possible) up to the mark I have given.

Joaquim Cruz in his fast races after the Olympics of 1984 has had pacamekers:

Zürich (1:42.34) - up to 550m

Brussels (1:42.41) - up to 440m

Cologne (1:41.77) - up to 550m

And, no, Wilson Kipketer and David Rudisha have not led at the bell in their WR races (exception for sure at the Olympics). You are wrong - as almost always.

You don't watch the races - that's OK. Then wrongly commenting is astonishing.

In two of Kipketer's wr races (including his indoor record) he led at the bell, as did Rudisha. But you ignore the numerous other earlier records in the event in the last 60 years I gave that did not have a pacemaker. But the role of a pacemaker in the record is moot as the record wasn't always set with a first lap faster than that achieved in races without such a pacemaker. As I said, sometimes even splits did the job, which meant a first lap in the same region as many other races, but with the difference of a second lap where the record-holder maintained their pace.

If Ovett never ran an 800 with a first lap of 52 or faster there might be an argument. But he did. So there isn't. He had opportunities to beat 1:44 but didn't do it.

I'm not ignoring anything. I pointed on the wrong "facts" which you have given - as so so often.

The 7 800m WRs from 1:42.33 to 1:41.01 all had pacemakers - I already have given you the numbers how far the PM actually went.

Kipketer has not led at the bell in Stockholm, Zürich and Cologne. Rudisha has not led at the bell in Berlin and Rieti. You are wrong - as almost always.

Imagine being so ignorant and still refusing to accept facts. You are something else...

Adding to J. Wigands’ and PDubbs’ points above, American culture was both much more homogeneous during the Cold War era (1945-1990) and more competitive.
Most households received a print newspaper, which shared much of the same news feeds from the Associated Press, United Press International, or Reuters. Many subscribed to the same magazines (Time, Life, National Geographic, Sports Illustrated, and maybe a wrapped copy of Playboy). We all watched the same 3 national TV channels (NBC, ABC, CBS), plus a local affiliate or two and eventually, HBO & Showtime. We listened to much of the same music.
Meanwhile, our US Presidents and various councils really pushed patriotic programs and themes to compete with the Soviet Bloc, including the dreaded annual National Presidential Fitness Test, which introduced most kids to the standing broad jump, 600 yard run, 50 yard dash, shuttle run, and softball throw, among other events. The top 15% of kids were awarded national presidential fitness test recognition and marks were sometimes posted, while US-USSR track meets were televised to national audiences on ABC-Wide World of Sports. Quality sports writing and broadcasting was widely consumed and valued (Top Sports Illustrated writers -including running’s Kenny Moore-were practically considered literary figures, while Bud Greenspan’s Olympic documentaries were highly regarded and inspired untold numbers of viewers). When the running boom hit from the mid-70s into the early 80s, it was of a very competitive nature, when it seemed most suburban neighborhoods featured a local 2:20-2:30 marathoner or few.
That world is gone now, replaced by a fractured populace and news & information landscape. ‘Wellness’ is the rage now, not competitive fitness. Attention spans are shorter.

Just checked some earlier records:.

For sure the 1968 and 1976 Olympics as well as the 1972 US Trials didn't had a pacemaker.

The winner didn't took the lead until

1968 Doubell: 70 meters to go

1972 Wottle: 60 meters to go

1976 Juantorena: 320 meters to go

Fiasconaro in 1973 (1:43.7) led at the bell.

Rudisha in 2012 (1:40.91) immediately went to the front and led the whole race.

For many pages through this thread I enjoyed the discussion, presented my arguments and shared facts and opinions with education.

At the first few pages I thought some of you were being too harsh with "Armstronglivs". Needless to say I was not familiar with him from other threads as I don't post in LetsRun very often.

It is clear to me after these last posts that "Armstronglivs" is not here to debate or present arguments - he is here to lie and deny facts. Now I understand those from earlier pages - opinions are opinions, as controversial as they are, but intellectual dishonesty must be pointed and exposed. I am not sure "Armostronglivs" lies and denies facts of concrete reality for fun or due to a mental condition. In either case it is sad to witness.

Ovett DID break world records by accident!

1978 2 miles when he shadowed Rono until the straight before easing past him smiling and waving.

1980 1500m Koblenz when he did just enough to win and felt it must have been a considerably slower time and was shocked when he saw the worls record time.

1980 mile or 1500, can’t remember, before the Olympics when he wore a white vest and eased past Scott before waving and smiling on the home straight. This ‘equalled’ the WR by the standards of the day when only tenths counted.

two other points I’d like to make before bowing out of the debate, Ovett slowed down behind Coe deliberately on the final bend in Prague because he expected Co to kick again and didn’t want Coe to kick while Ovett was on the outside of the bend, so sat comfortably waiting until the straight. Had he gone sooner, his time would’ve been faster, and Beyer may never have caught him.

IMHO Ovett was clearly a class above Peter Elliott in terms of peak potential, but this last point is opinion.

if Ovett trained for speed like Coe did, if Ovett specialised in 800m, if Ovett loved time trialling, 1.42 seems like a very attainable target to me.

anything faster than 1.42 is veey speculativr though not beyond the realms of possibility.

You repeatedly ignore the examples I gave of runners setting wrs since '66 without pacemakers - Ryun, Doubell, Wottle, Juantorena. To do so would completely undercut your argument of the necessity of a designated pacemaker for a fast time, instead of a merely fast race. You also ignore Kipketer's indoor wr when he led throughout from the front and Rudisha's record in London. That is quite apart from another of Kipketer's and Rudisha's records where they each front-ran for the second part of the race.

But if a pacemaker is a necessity for a record or a fast time, what is the lap time needed? 49, 50, 51, 52? And what proves definitively that this cannot occur in a race unless it has a pacemaker and is run as a "time-trial"? If such times have been recorded in races without a pacemaker it completely negates your argument of the necessity of a pacemaker.