dude, y'all are so fake. in the grander scheme of things, those regretting gender surgery (1-3%) are small potatoes compared to, say, those regretting getting their boobs done (5-9%).
97-99% is almost unanimous. we're talking 1-3 of every 100 people. you can't get 97-99 people to agree on almost anything.
i am not even sure if that low a regret rate even justifies denying it to kids, since the vast majority are contented.
I will say this again: just because someone consents to having something done to them does not thereby make it a good thing to do. Consent and positive feelings does not magically turn what is objectively bodily mutilation into a healthy and necessary procedure.
you're frauds. under this president you have mastered insincere rhetoric that is just polished enough if you aren't paying attention how people act or the inconsistencies of the whole package, you could get it wrong.
dude, do not pretend to be compassionate when are in fact seeking license to be a big ol jerk. do not pretend to be compassionate when you not only dismiss someone's conscious thoughts, but put zero money where your mouth is on care, and in reality try to make their lives a living hell while saying it's ok because all manner of brutality is justified to jolt the deluded.
On the contrary, it is transgender rhetoric and talking points that seem “just polished enough” to get people to believe it (see the popular, yet extremely anthropologically questionable “gender unicorn” and “genderbread person” meme that gets pushed in DEI trainings and schools). This is true regardless of who the president is.
There is no such entity as a transgender person. There are people who believe themselves to be the opposite gender/sex, or something between or beyond man or woman entirely, a perception that could be caused by any number of factors, many of which are not the fault of the person experiencing this. But that does not thereby make it true.
i mean the whole premise of this thread is some lady using emotionalism to try and distort her own personal history to manipulate people. she won the 2023 400H title. but we're gonna leave that out and ask for the headline to be how telfer denied her a title.
you then pretend to be compassionate by calling them crazy, offering no care for those you feign to diagnose, and then trying to exclude them from public life unless they accept your take on their situation.
to be clear, you're pushing the mental illness angle even though it's been decades since we treated gender issues as a general problem of anyone in that situation. in reality psychology decades ago switched to being concerned with psychopathological versions and does not view your average trans person as nuts.
if you're gonna throw around psychology catch up to 2025 mainstream psychological understanding. not just let me dust off decades old DSM versions or apply psychology like we're in the 1950s.
No one is trying to exclude anyone from public life, though.
Women like me and many men are trying to keep males from using gender identity claims to compete in female sports.
We're trying to keep males from depriving female athletes of fair play, equal opportunity and chances to shine and by entering girls' and women's sports competitions and taking for themselves roster spots, chances to compete, opportunities to advance, and places on on winners' podiums that rightfully should go to female athletes.
We're also trying to get the official records changed so that all the wins, titles and record-setting accomplishments that males who claim to have a trans or other special gender identity have been allowed to rack up in girls' and women's sports in recent years are expunged - and all the female athletes who've lost wins, places and important titles to males can finally get the recognition they deserve.
We're also trying to keep males out of spaces that are supposed to be for females only like girls' and women's restrooms, locker rooms, changing rooms, spas, shelters, prisons, rape crisis centers, domestic violence/IP violence refuges. We believe that the only males who should be in these kinds of places are baby boys and very young boys who are with their mothers or other female carers (and cleaners, janitors, plumbers, construction workers, repairmen, maintenance workers when necessary,)
As for "your average trans person" - there's really no such thing. But over the past decade or so, the patients showing up at "youth gender clinics" in the USA and other Western countries seeking medical interventions such as "puberty blockers," cross-sex hormones and surgeries to remove healthy body parts have been predominantly teenage girls and young college-age women with a history of trauma such as CSA and a host of other mental and physical health problems including low self-esteem, very poor body-image, obesity, menstrual difficulties including dymenorrhea and PMDD, depression, anxiety, OCD, EDs and self-harm.
What's more, since the so-called "Dutch protocol" for "youth gender medicine" was first introduced in the Netherlands in the 1990s and was adopted and promoted in other countries starting around 2007-2010, a majority of the young people to get "gender affirming medical care" as minors that has left them unable to have normal sexual function, fulfilling sex lives or children of their own as adults are same-sex attracted (bisexual or homosexual).
This is some of the best testimony I have ever seen.
Well this demands further exploration. Maybe we just have been ignorant about all of this, and still are. I am going to say we have a hung jury here, pun intended. I am going to reserve judgment on this trans phenomenon until we have more knowledge. In the meantime, treat trans people with compassion, no minors get chemical or surgical intervention, they can stay out of female sports, and we need to learn more about this before we label them as delusional or mentally ill, because maybe we are morons ourselves about this, and we need to learn more, and even if they are mentally ill, which I doubt, the mentally ill need compassion too.
You are ignoring the cost of not giving any chemical intervention for minors.
In 2017-21, about 120,000 children under 18 were diagnosed with gender dysphoria. That's about 0.3% of total, or 10% of children who self-identify as transgender.
Out of 120,000, 4780 received prescription for puberty blockers. (About 4% of those with gender dysphoria, or 0.4% of those who identify as trans.)
14,276 were prescribed with cross hormone. (12% of those with gender dysphoria, or 1.2% of those who identify as trans.)
776 received top surgery in 2019-21. If you extrapolate into five years, that's about 1293 in five years. About 1% of those who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria, or 0.1% of those who identify as trans.
56 received bottom surgery in five years. 0.05% of those who were diagnosed with gender dysphoria or 0.005% of those who identify as trans.
So less than 2% of minors who identify as trans receive any "chemical intervention" and about 0.1% of them receive any surgical intervention. HCPs are very, very careful about giving any medical intervention and are extremely accurate in identifying who needs it.
I think the damage of not giving gender affirming care outweighs the damage of giving it to a small minority who would later regret it. We should probably stop any surgery for minors. But even that has extremely low regret rate.
I will say this again: just because someone consents to having something done to them does not thereby make it a good thing to do. Consent and positive feelings does not magically turn what is objectively bodily mutilation into a healthy and necessary procedure.
Do you think minors should not be allowed to have abortion? That has higher regret rate than gender affirming care, and it is not like the fetus has some medical defect in most cases.
As for "your average trans person" - there's really no such thing. But over the past decade or so, the patients showing up at "youth gender clinics" in the USA and other Western countries seeking medical interventions such as "puberty blockers," cross-sex hormones and surgeries to remove healthy body parts have been predominantly teenage girls and young college-age women with a history of trauma such as CSA and a host of other mental and physical health problems including low self-esteem, very poor body-image, obesity, menstrual difficulties including dymenorrhea and PMDD, depression, anxiety, OCD, EDs and self-harm.
Do you think minors should not be allowed to have abortion? That has higher regret rate than gender affirming care, and it is not like the fetus has some medical defect in most cases.
Yes, if course I oppose abortion (both for minors and for adults). And it’s not because of the “regret rate” that I oppose it, but because, like the euphemistically-named “gender-affirming care,” it’s a destruction and mutilation, in this case which results in the death of an unborn child.
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Why are some people so obsessed with toilets issues?
When the reality is, even today a majority of the world's women today give birth without a doctor being present.
Your opinions and assumptions are often very far from the reality. According to WHO statistics, 86% of births worldwide attended by skilled health personnel (estimates 2023).
PS. And yes, medical assistants and nurses/midwives are included in the count, but this doesn’t change much to the argument.
Your opinions and assumptions are often very far from the reality. According to WHO statistics, 86% of births worldwide attended by skilled health personnel (estimates 2023).
PS. And yes, medical assistants and nurses/midwives are included in the count, but this doesn’t change much to the argument.
That bloke is a confident bullshǐtter, sort of like AI, but human, much more biased, with much less knowledge and reading comprehension, and afflicted by uncontrollable verbositis. He is also very petulant and takes everything on its hurt TERFy chin.
Yeah, yeah, of course they might feel gratitude and affirmation immediately in the aftermath of the “transition.” Check back in in 15-20 years when they realize they can’t have children, can’t have an orgasm, have to keep clearing out the skin that keeps growing over the surgical wound between their legs, in the body’s attempt to heal itself.
And anyway, regarding the supposed precise care and sterling practices with these clinics operate:
Anyway, it doesn’t really matter, because the procedure of medical transition is objectively bodily mutilation anyway. Can’t magically change that by inventing a false anthropology to justify it.
Your opinions and assumptions are often very far from the reality. According to WHO statistics, 86% of births worldwide attended by skilled health personnel (estimates 2023).
PS. And yes, medical assistants and nurses/midwives are included in the count, but this doesn’t change much to the argument.
What I said was true. Even today, a majority of the world's women give birth without a doctor being present.
Midwives, nurses, nurse-midwives, medical assistants and the other kinds of health care workers described in the literature as "skilled birth attendants" (SBA) and "skilled health personnel" (SHP) who provide care for the majority of the world's women during labor and childbirth aren't doctors. They're a far cry from doctors, in fact.
The SBAs/SHPs who attend most of the world's births have training that is completely different to medical doctors, including the MDs specializing in obstetrics and gynecology who attend the majority of births in the USA. The care and services that SBAs provide to women during labor and childbirth are very different to what medical doctors specializing in OB-GYN provide too.
The care and services SBAs provide are also very different to the kind of services provided by the other kinds of doctors who commonly provide medical care to women who labor and birth in hosptial settings in the USA, such as anesthelogists who do epidurals.
Even in middle- and higher-income countries with "modern medicine" and top-tier health care systems, the majority of women go through the entirety of pregnancy, childbirth and the postnatal period without getting pregnancy- or maternity-related care from a medical doctor.
This post was edited 7 minutes after it was posted.
Your opinions and assumptions are often very far from the reality. According to WHO statistics, 86% of births worldwide attended by skilled health personnel (estimates 2023).
PS. And yes, medical assistants and nurses/midwives are included in the count, but this doesn’t change much to the argument.
But when WHO reports on the percentage of "births attended by skilled health personnel" the phrase "skilled health personnel" hardly ever means doctors.
From the gobbledygook published by WHO, the precise meaning of the term "skilled health personnel" who attend births is hard for me to figure out.
If anyone else can make heads or tails out of WHO's definitions, please fill me in. Coz WHO's vague and repetitive bureacratic verbiage has me scratching my head.
What's more, reading through all the BS below, I kept being reminded of the famous scene in the movie "Gone With the Wind" where young Butterfly McQueen playing the ditzy slave girl Prissy tells Vivian Leigh's Scarlet O'Hara, "Miss Scarlet, I don't know nuthin' about birthin' babies!" And Scarlet replies in anger, "You told me you knew everything!" as she smacks poor annoying Prissy in the face.
births attended by skilled health personnel (generally doctors, nurses or midwives but can refer to other health professionals providing childbirth care) is the proportion of childbirths attended by professional health personnel.
According to the current definition (1) these are competent maternal and newborn health (MNH) professionals educated, trained and regulated to national and international standards. They are competent to: (i) provide and promote evidence-based, human-rights based, quality, socio-culturally sensitive and dignified care to women and newborns; (ii) facilitate physiological processes during labour and delivery to ensure a clean and positive childbirth experience; and (iii) identify and manage or refer women and/or newborns with complications.
Definition of skilled health personnel providing care during childbirth
2018 joint statement by WHO, UNFPA, UNICEF, ICM, ICN, FIGO and IPA
This 2018 joint statement by the World Health Organization (WHO), the United Nations Population Fund (UNFPA), the United Nations Children’s Fund (UNICEF), the International Confederation of Midwives (ICM), the International Council of Nurses (ICN), the International Federation of Gynecology and Obstetrics (FIGO) and the International Pediatric Association (IPA) presents the 2018 definition of skilled health personnel providing care during childbirth (also widely known as a “skilled birth attendants” or SBAs).
Skilled health personnel are competent maternal and newborn health (MNH) professionals educated, trained and regulated to national and international standards. They are competent to:
(i) provide and promote evidence-based, human-rights-based, quality, socioculturally sensitive and dignified care to women and newborns;
(ii) facilitate physiological processes during labour anddelivery to ensure a clean and positive childbirth experience; and
(iii) identify and manage or refer women and/or newborns with complications.
as part of an integrated team of MNH professionals (including midwives, nurses, obstetricians,paediatricians and anaesthetists), they perform all signal functions of emergency maternal and newborn care to optimize the health and well-being of women and newborns.
Within an enabling environment, midwives trained to International Confederation of Midwives (ICM) standards can provide nearly all of the essential care needed for women and newborns.
(In different countries, these competencies are held by professionals with varying occupational titles.)
the defintion of skilled health personnel (competent health-care professionals) providing care during childbirth... is the maternal and newborn health (MNH) professional who is competent to provide care during childbirth.
This person possesses competencies in intrapartum care,* and is also supported by appropriate standards of practice (education, training and regulation), and operates within an enabling environment (a well functioning health system, comprising six building blocks).
This individual possesses the following required competencies (knowledge, skills, behaviours) in the area of intrapartum care:
can provide and promote evidence-based, human-rights-based, quality, socioculturally sensitive and dignified care to women and newborns
can facilitate physiological processes during labour and delivery to ensure a clean and positive childbirth experience
can identify and manage or refer women and/or newborns with complications
can perform (as part of a team) all signal functions of emergency maternal and newborn care (basic emergency obstetric and newborn care – BEmONC; comprehensive emergency obstetric and newborn care – CEmONC) to optimize their health and well-being.
The World Health Organization (WHO) identified the presence of a trained medical helper (also known asa “skilled birth attendant” or SBA) at birth as an important factor in improving the health and survival of women and newborns. However, how exactly would you define “skilled”?
“skilled birth attendant” is not consistently defined, even though the WHO tried to officially define it in 2014 and again in 2018. The job titles in over two-thirds of the articles did not fit this standard definition of SBA as it was defined in 2014. The lack of a clear definition of the job and its requirements, such as expected education level and training, makes it difficult to compare SBAs between countries.
Our literature review revealed that there was a lot of variation in what countries considered “skilled birth attendants” (Fig. 2). SBAs mentioned in the studies ranged from doctors (16%) to nurses (16%) to midwives (15%) or assistant nurse/ midwives (4%). That still left about 40% for other job titles, which made them very hard to compare. In fact, among a total of 341 SBAs, we found over 100 different job titles for them.
The majority (61%) of these SBAs were reported as “skilled,” but the studies lacked information on roughly a third of them.
Less than 25% of the articles reported that education and training were required for SBAs. When present, training requirements varied widely. Some countries required as little as 3 months of training while others required as much as 10 years.
Less than 40% of the articles reported if SBAs could perform basic emergency care during childbirth. Of those that did, only 18% could perform all seven skills called signal functions.
Your opinions and assumptions are often very far from the reality. According to WHO statistics, 86% of births worldwide attended by skilled health personnel (estimates 2023).
PS. And yes, medical assistants and nurses/midwives are included in the count, but this doesn’t change much to the argument.
That bloke is a confident bullshǐtter, sort of like AI, but human, much more biased, with much less knowledge and reading comprehension, and afflicted by uncontrollable verbositis. He is also very petulant and takes everything on its hurt TERFy chin.
That bloke is a confident bullshǐtter, sort of like AI, but human, much more biased, with much less knowledge and reading comprehension, and afflicted by uncontrollable verbositis. He is also very petulant and takes everything on its hurt TERFy chin.
Why are you so obsessed with her?
Why are you with me? I told you many times you are not my type.
i mean the whole premise of this thread is some lady using emotionalism to try and distort her own personal history to manipulate people. she won the 2023 400H title. but we're gonna leave that out and ask for the headline to be how telfer denied her a title.
you then pretend to be compassionate by calling them crazy, offering no care for those you feign to diagnose, and then trying to exclude them from public life unless they accept your take on their situation.
No one is trying to exclude anyone from public life, though.
Women like me and many men are trying to keep males from using gender identity claims to compete in female sports.
We're trying to keep males from depriving female athletes of fair play, equal opportunity and chances to shine and by entering girls' and women's sports competitions and taking for themselves roster spots, chances to compete, opportunities to advance, and places on on winners' podiums that rightfully should go to female athletes.
We're also trying to get the official records changed so that all the wins, titles and record-setting accomplishments that males who claim to have a trans or other special gender identity have been allowed to rack up in girls' and women's sports in recent years are expunged - and all the female athletes who've lost wins, places and important titles to males can finally get the recognition they deserve.
We're also trying to keep males out of spaces that are supposed to be for females only like girls' and women's restrooms, locker rooms, changing rooms, spas, shelters, prisons, rape crisis centers, domestic violence/IP violence refuges. We believe that the only males who should be in these kinds of places are baby boys and very young boys who are with their mothers or other female carers (and cleaners, janitors, plumbers, construction workers, repairmen, maintenance workers when necessary,)
As for "your average trans person" - there's really no such thing. But over the past decade or so, the patients showing up at "youth gender clinics" in the USA and other Western countries seeking medical interventions such as "puberty blockers," cross-sex hormones and surgeries to remove healthy body parts have been predominantly teenage girls and young college-age women with a history of trauma such as CSA and a host of other mental and physical health problems including low self-esteem, very poor body-image, obesity, menstrual difficulties including dymenorrhea and PMDD, depression, anxiety, OCD, EDs and self-harm.
What's more, since the so-called "Dutch protocol" for "youth gender medicine" was first introduced in the Netherlands in the 1990s and was adopted and promoted in other countries starting around 2007-2010, a majority of the young people to get "gender affirming medical care" as minors that has left them unable to have normal sexual function, fulfilling sex lives or children of their own as adults are same-sex attracted (bisexual or homosexual).
This is patently false and a shameless attempt at shapeshifting. There are any number of posts where Verbosa has argued rabidly against bathroom access of their comfort for trans women, access to gender affirming care, and pretty much any societal privilege freely accorded to cis women. Heck, the bloke can’t even get himself to grant them the dignity of preferred pronouns. Dude suffers from irredeemable verbositis and transphobia.
It will never cease to amaze me how much oxygen this issue gets.
All the things to worry about in the world and somehow nothing gets people on both sides of the aisle fired up like the trans thing
It provides a sliver of meaning to the lives of the white knight incels over here. The women they think they are fighting for don’t actually care as much about the issue though.
The coflounders are also transphobes and are complicit in rejigging this topic to generate traffic.
