I have to give Renato some credit - he is likely the only leading coach in Kenya at this point not to have had an athlete banned for an anti-doping offence.
It is ironic that you mentioned the exact sports, weightlifting, body building and cycling where doping is rife and often treated with kids gloves and not repressed to anywhere near the level compared with track and field. Of course there is a problem with Kenyan doping but the people on these threads who claim that all Kenyans are involved in doping is just as ridiculous as saying there is no doping among Kenyan runners. A middle ground would be more sensible to adopt.
Doping is largely understood and accepted in weightlifting and cycling. Cycling has been a professional team sport since the 19th century. You can't compare it to track.
One thing that the 'let them dope' brigade here miss (I hope) is that most 'competitive runners' are kids. If you allow doping in athletics, even if you brought in some rule for no doping for under 18s, you would be creating a doping culture and high school kids would end up doping and taking roids and carcegenic sarms.
Track/running is as much a concern to WADA as weightlifting and bodybuilding. It is amongst the worst sports for doping. But so many fans cannot accept that.
No. Science has confirmed no such thing -- not for these elite performances.
Of course it has, for example in form of scientist Schumacher.
But feel free to argue against that based on your beliefs. The propaganda show must go on after all.
Sorry no. The claim was that "legitimate science has confirmed improvements", followed by the example of "a 7:45-7:50 3 k guy should/could be able to produce 7:30ish times after a bout of EPO".
Schumacher confirmed no such thing -- not for this level of elite performances.
Of course it has, for example in form of scientist Schumacher.
But feel free to argue against that based on your beliefs. The propaganda show must go on after all.
Sorry no. The claim was that "legitimate science has confirmed improvements", followed by the example of "a 7:45-7:50 3 k guy should/could be able to produce 7:30ish times after a bout of EPO".
Schumacher confirmed no such thing -- not for this level of elite performances.
Sorry not sorry yes. Wednesday's claim was that "the legitimate science has confirmed improvements of about 30 seconds for 5 k and about 1 min for the 10 k" - the 1 min for 10k is exactly what Schumacher said about elite runners.
What you now call the claim actually refers to Wednesday's "one could argue..." which you conveniently left out. Of course Schumacher did not exactly say what "one could argue...".
Full quote:
"so basically one could argue that a 7:45-7:50 3 k guy should/could be able to produce 7:30ish times"
To the point: with 30 seconds for 5 km and 60 seconds for 10 km for elite runners, Wednesday's arguing for 15 - 20 seconds for 3 km is only consequent. No problem, just math, for example 3/5 * 30 seconds = 18 seconds.
Sorry not sorry yes. Wednesday's claim was that "the legitimate science has confirmed improvements of about 30 seconds for 5 k and about 1 min for the 10 k" - the 1 min for 10k is exactly what Schumacher said about elite runners.
What you now call the claim actually refers to Wednesday's "one could argue..." which you conveniently left out. Of course Schumacher did not exactly say what "one could argue...".
Full quote:
"so basically one could argue that a 7:45-7:50 3 k guy should/could be able to produce 7:30ish times"
To the point: with 30 seconds for 5 km and 60 seconds for 10 km for elite runners, Wednesday's arguing for 15 - 20 seconds for 3 km is only consequent. No problem, just math, for example 3/5 * 30 seconds = 18 seconds.
You also leave out one important part. I said "not for these elite performances", which refers to the "7:45-7:50" "3k guy"/"swedish top elite".
A blood doping study on 34 minute 10K runners, might show gains of about a minute, but this is equivalent to the 9:20 3000m runner, not 7:45.
7:45 would be equivalent to the 28:00 10K runner. Which "legitimate science" has confirmed about 1 minute for that runner?
What is the fastest runner that Schumacher has doped for a study?
Some studies have shown that the effects of EPO on running performance are largely due to the placebo effect, namely, that they believe that they are getting something that makes them able to run faster, longer. Others cite smaller effects on performance tied to the physio-chemical properties of the drug itself.
And far more studies show huge improvements, including one that found Kenyan runners improve their 3000m times by 5%. That's an 8:00 runner into a 7:34 runner. Please don't feed the troll.
Seriously, you believe that 3k times are improved by 5%. Where are all the Kenyan 7:10 3k runners? There should be plenty in the 7:10s at least, considering that we know that mid to low 7:30s can be attained by many Westerners, going back decades, and then subtract 5% (22.5 s and up) and you get 7:10s.
These Kenyan doping threads are up there with the fake moon landing threads for denial of reality.
Funny -- someone resurrected a 5-year old fake moon landing thread and I saw quite a few of your "power of doping" allies expressing genuine skepticism about men on the moon.
These Kenyan doping threads are up there with the fake moon landing threads for denial of reality.
Funny -- someone resurrected a 5-year old fake moon landing thread and I saw quite a few of your "power of doping" allies expressing genuine skepticism about men on the moon.
Since you aren't very bright I did not make the claim the fake moon landing adherents are doping deniers but that doping denial is equivalent to fake moon landing in its departure from reality. You are proof of that.
These Kenyan doping threads are up there with the fake moon landing threads for denial of reality.
Funny -- someone resurrected a 5-year old fake moon landing thread and I saw quite a few of your "power of doping" allies expressing genuine skepticism about men on the moon.
Well I wasn't one of them, I was pointing out the unliklihood of the conspiracy theory in that thread.
It's a fair comparison, although I would go further than Armstronglivs, and say that you're even more extreme and detached from reality than a 'fake moon landing' conspiracy theorist. You are closer to a Flat Earther bonafide tin foil hat loony. The number of people who actually do believe that the Earth is flat, is probably very tiny, comparable to the tiny number of people who believe that performance enhancing drugs do not enhance performances.
And far more studies show huge improvements, including one that found Kenyan runners improve their 3000m times by 5%. That's an 8:00 runner into a 7:34 runner. Please don't feed the troll.
Seriously, you believe that 3k times are improved by 5%. Where are all the Kenyan 7:10 3k runners? There should be plenty in the 7:10s at least, considering that we know that mid to low 7:30s can be attained by many Westerners, going back decades, and then subtract 5% (22.5 s and up) and you get 7:10s.
Kenyans don't naturally attain 7.30. We can see that from the sheer number who dope.
Sorry not sorry yes. Wednesday's claim was that "the legitimate science has confirmed improvements of about 30 seconds for 5 k and about 1 min for the 10 k" - the 1 min for 10k is exactly what Schumacher said about elite runners.
What you now call the claim actually refers to Wednesday's "one could argue..." which you conveniently left out. Of course Schumacher did not exactly say what "one could argue...".
Full quote:
"so basically one could argue that a 7:45-7:50 3 k guy should/could be able to produce 7:30ish times"
To the point: with 30 seconds for 5 km and 60 seconds for 10 km for elite runners, Wednesday's arguing for 15 - 20 seconds for 3 km is only consequent. No problem, just math, for example 3/5 * 30 seconds = 18 seconds.
You also leave out one important part. I said "not for these elite performances", which refers to the "7:45-7:50" "3k guy"/"swedish top elite".
A blood doping study on 34 minute 10K runners, might show gains of about a minute, but this is equivalent to the 9:20 3000m runner, not 7:45.
7:45 would be equivalent to the 28:00 10K runner. Which "legitimate science" has confirmed about 1 minute for that runner?
What is the fastest runner that Schumacher has doped for a study?
That is the flaw in your arguments. No top athlete has participated in doping performance studies. You have no basis therefore for claiming their estimated improvements in performance are not equivalent to those of non-elites. They aren't a different species from non-elites.
You also leave out one important part. I said "not for these elite performances", which refers to the "7:45-7:50" "3k guy"/"swedish top elite".
A blood doping study on 34 minute 10K runners, might show gains of about a minute, but this is equivalent to the 9:20 3000m runner, not 7:45.
7:45 would be equivalent to the 28:00 10K runner. Which "legitimate science" has confirmed about 1 minute for that runner?
What is the fastest runner that Schumacher has doped for a study?
I didn't "leave out one important part"; I just didn't comment on your straw man.
Schumacher's 1 minute improvement over 10k was in the context of a real elite runner (female 2:00/3:59 runner pre super shoes, 1160 - 1210 points), which is even superior compared to a male 7:45-7:50 (1146 - 1115 points), or a "28:00 10K runner" (1132 points).
What is the smallest improvement any respectable scientist has even mentioned for elite runners?
Seriously, you believe that 3k times are improved by 5%. Where are all the Kenyan 7:10 3k runners? There should be plenty in the 7:10s at least, considering that we know that mid to low 7:30s can be attained by many Westerners, going back decades, and then subtract 5% (22.5 s and up) and you get 7:10s.
Kenyans don't naturally attain 7.30. We can see that from the sheer number who dope.
Some fact checking:
Out of the 40 athletes running 7:30 or better, only 14 have been Kenyan, over the last 28 years.
You also leave out one important part. I said "not for these elite performances", which refers to the "7:45-7:50" "3k guy"/"swedish top elite".
A blood doping study on 34 minute 10K runners, might show gains of about a minute, but this is equivalent to the 9:20 3000m runner, not 7:45.
7:45 would be equivalent to the 28:00 10K runner. Which "legitimate science" has confirmed about 1 minute for that runner?
What is the fastest runner that Schumacher has doped for a study?
That is the flaw in your arguments. No top athlete has participated in doping performance studies. You have no basis therefore for claiming their estimated improvements in performance are not equivalent to those of non-elites. They aren't a different species from non-elites.
It's funny to see you completely make my argument for me, then call it flawed.
The claim here was that "the legitimate science has confirmed improvements ...".
We seem to agree "not for these elite performances".
I did not argue that "their estimated improvements in performance are not equivalent to those of non-elites", but if I had, the basis would be the researchers themselves who caution against making such false equivalences.
I didn't "leave out one important part"; I just didn't comment on your straw man.
Schumacher's 1 minute improvement over 10k was in the context of a real elite runner (female 2:00/3:59 runner pre super shoes, 1160 - 1210 points), which is even superior compared to a male 7:45-7:50 (1146 - 1115 points), or a "28:00 10K runner" (1132 points).
What is the smallest improvement any respectable scientist has even mentioned for elite runners?
If you are responding to me, then "not for these elite performances" is not a straw man, but is really the only point. Otherwise, you are responding to some other goalposts.
I note:
1) You have not yet shown us any "legitimate science", and
2) Schumacher did not confirm that this "real elite female runner" improved, and
3) I never doubted that female runners can improve in 800m/1500m from doping, especially from testosterone, steroids and other male hormones.
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