Then what term would you prefer? How is a fair way to describe someone who is so self-involved in their own personal identity and psychodrama that they are oblivious to the way their actions are affecting others? Maybe that is just a sign of the culture at the moment where identity and self-obsession are incentivized, but oblivious all the same. Nor to I buy that Thomas legitimately finished 5th and 8th after so easily trouncing the competition. Thomas has allegedly tanked races before and everything Thomas has done has been about "the cause." I would bet anything that after the 500 and all the negative feedback someone got in Thomas's ear and told her that her winning so easily was hurting the cause. How convenient that Thomas's defender can now say "you see, Thomas did not have that big an advantage after all, calm down." To me there was much more calculation here then a lost soul struggling to find them self, and that came across in interviews. Also if it was not such a big deal then there was no reason for Thomas to be racing against biological females in the first place. You cannot have it both ways, that Thomas competing was some great, heroic act and also of no consequence.
As to vitriol, I did see vitriol, but it was directed at the female swimmers who spoke up. They were told to shut up and clap, and if it bothered them to seek therapy. Thomas was no victim. All the institutions of power were on her side. Fairness did not matter. The feelings and concerns of Thomas's female teammates and competitors did not matter. Nothing supposedly matter but the feelings and emotions of one individual. Nor did the reasons why we have women's sports, which despite all the gaslighting is because women cannot physically compete with men on anything close to a level playing field. It all came across as physical and institutional bullying, as well as placing one group's concerns arbitrarily above the concerns of another. After the 500 the dam broke somewhat, but it was vitriol in response to an act of cultural strong-arming.
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Llllll wrote:
RunRagged wrote:
This is like saying Putin's invasion of Ukraine has benefitted that country by bringing attention to it.
Makes a neat analogy though: Lia Thomas is to women's swimming as Vladimir Putin is to Ukraine.
A little extreme.
Only a little extreme? Darn, that's a hit and a miss for me, then. I meant it to be really extreme - in the vein of Jonathan Swift.
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SDSU Aztec wrote:
Just Another Hobby Jogger wrote:
Even 8th grade might be a bit too late to prevent advantage from male puberty. (That's the standard set by the USA Swimming.)
That wasn’t the point I was trying to make. I couldn’t find any studies about when a transgender person commences hormone treatments, but one starting in 8th is unlikely. Few parents want to responsible for irreversible physical changes and want their child to wait until they are an adult.
Hormone Replacement Therapy typically does not start until age 16. But many trans youths take puberty blockers as early as age 10 or 11.
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NERunner03533 wrote:
Wise Old Man wrote:
Wow, just read through this thread. So much vitriol and hate. The cherry on the top was Run Ragged comparing Thomas to Putin. That’s despicable in my opinion. Truly. All this bs that Thomas is a malignant narcissist. Does anybody know her who has posted? Lia Thomas is a woman. Full stop. She’s a decent but unremarkable woman swimmer. She finished first, 5th and 8th. No records were broken. She’s still like 10 sec slower than Ledecky in her best event. Women’s swimming is just fine it seems after this championship. Life goes on. In the pursuit of meaningful competition, Thomas should not have been permitted to compete, I agree, but that does not excuse a lot of what’s been said about her or other trans athletes. I’m not sure if there is a fair path to allowing trans women to compete in the women’s category, like after some period of testosterone suppression, or not, and I freely acknowledge the biological differences between men and women that bear on athletic performance, on average, though there’s considerable overlap. (At my best as a male runner I would had my ass kicked by all elite woman in every event over 800m.) Regardless none of this excuses the TERFs l, and all of the hate.
Good post & here's a good video/podcast listen:
Thank you for sharing. Super reasonable discussion. One of Lia’s competitors said it best, along the lines of if you care about women’s sports and care about protecting it, devote your energy to the marked inequities of pay and resources and real opportunities and to issues of sexual assault and general abuse that exist. Focusing on the “dangers” of trans women to women’s sports is like starting a public health campaign to prevent shark attack rather than one to combat heart disease or cancer. I like my analogy better than the Putin = Lia one.
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astro wrote:
Then what term would you prefer? How is a fair way to describe someone who is so self-involved in their own personal identity and psychodrama that they are oblivious to the way their actions are affecting others? Maybe that is just a sign of the culture at the moment where identity and self-obsession are incentivized, but oblivious all the same. Nor to I buy that Thomas legitimately finished 5th and 8th after so easily trouncing the competition. Thomas has allegedly tanked races before and everything Thomas has done has been about "the cause." I would bet anything that after the 500 and all the negative feedback someone got in Thomas's ear and told her that her winning so easily was hurting the cause. How convenient that Thomas's defender can now say "you see, Thomas did not have that big an advantage after all, calm down." To me there was much more calculation here then a lost soul struggling to find them self, and that came across in interviews. Also if it was not such a big deal then there was no reason for Thomas to be racing against biological females in the first place. You cannot have it both ways, that Thomas competing was some great, heroic act and also of no consequence.
As to vitriol, I did see vitriol, but it was directed at the female swimmers who spoke up. They were told to shut up and clap, and if it bothered them to seek therapy. Thomas was no victim. All the institutions of power were on her side. Fairness did not matter. The feelings and concerns of Thomas's female teammates and competitors did not matter. Nothing supposedly matter but the feelings and emotions of one individual. Nor did the reasons why we have women's sports, which despite all the gaslighting is because women cannot physically compete with men on anything close to a level playing field. It all came across as physical and institutional bullying, as well as placing one group's concerns arbitrarily above the concerns of another. After the 500 the dam broke somewhat, but it was vitriol in response to an act of cultural strong-arming.
Too much vitriol on both extremes. Lia is not a malignant narcissist and she is not a “he” trying destroy women’s sports. Women who are concerned that Lia being allowed to compete upsets the goal of meaningful competition embodied in Title IX have a very legitimate point and should be heard too without being accused of being bigots. I read a lot of athlete comments and they were pretty balanced. Most expressed a lot of empathy for Lia and the difficulty in deciding whether or not in the end they felt she should be in the competition. You seem to think that every athlete that voices respect for Lia, or g-d forbid, feels it’s ok for her to compete as a woman, is being coerced or virtue signaling. That’s bs. There’s a real diversity of opinion and certainly many who are ok with it, especially after some period of transition, hormone suppression, etc. The athletes don’t seem as nearly as worked up as the politicians and protestors. Honestly, they don’t.
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Wise Old Man wrote:
Wow, just read through this thread. So much vitriol and hate. The cherry on the top was Run Ragged comparing Thomas to Putin. That’s despicable in my opinion. Truly. All this bs that Thomas is a malignant narcissist. Does anybody know her who has posted? Lia Thomas is a woman. Full stop. She’s a decent but unremarkable woman swimmer. She finished first, 5th and 8th. No records were broken. She’s still like 10 sec slower than Ledecky in her best event. Women’s swimming is just fine it seems after this championship. Life goes on. In the pursuit of meaningful competition, Thomas should not have been permitted to compete, I agree, but that does not excuse a lot of what’s been said about her or other trans athletes. I’m not sure if there is a fair path to allowing trans women to compete in the women’s category, like after some period of testosterone suppression, or not, and I freely acknowledge the biological differences between men and women that bear on athletic performance, on average, though there’s considerable overlap. (At my best as a male runner I would had my ass kicked by all elite woman in every event over 800m.) Regardless none of this excuses the TERFs l, and all of the hate.
Oh c'mon, mate. Bet you thought Jonathan Swift was serious when he wrote his famous essay saying that the obvious solution to the Irish potato famine was for the people of the Emerald Isle to eat their offspring.
Someone on LRC said that Thomas had done a good deed for women's swimming by bringing attention to it. To illustrate the flaw of that reasoning, I made an analogy pointing up the absurdity.
Also, how come you feel it's perfectly within your rights as a bloke to slag off women like me by tarring us with the misogynistic slur "TERFs," but you think we should be condemned as "despicable" for not being sweet, deferential and ladylike in our own choice of words? How come it's "despicable" and "hate" for women to stand up for ourselves, our own sports, our sex, and our boundaries? Why is it okay in your view for some of your sex to ride roughshod over women's rights and invade women's sports, but it's unacceptable for women to express anger about it?
Why do women have to show respect and kindness for Lia Thomas and reverence and credulity for Thomas's claim that Thomas is now a woman too when Thomas has shown absolutely zero respect for female people and no regard for fair play?
Men on LRC say vile, sexist things about women all the time. But I've never noticed you voicing objections to that. You reserve all your ire for women like me.
Also, you've said very clearly on other threads about women's sports that you don't believe that girls and women have a right to female-only sports anyways - and you've informed me that feminism which focuses on what is in the best interests of female people and is fair to female people is the racist outdated feminism of "old white women." The new, "improved" feminism of 2022, you told me, is all about including, centering and showing kindness to males like Thomas. The shiny new, supposedly superior feminism of nowadays that you've been so kind to educate me about says that girls and women are morally obliged to budge up and step aside so that males like Thomas can express their "inner womanliness" by invading women's sports and exposing their male genitals in women's locker rooms and they never, ever have to hear anyone tell them, "No, this is not your place. Stay in your own lane."
Since you hold and espouse ideas about women's sports and women's rights that strike me as misogynistic and just plain cockamamie, I see no reason to defer to your supposedly greater wisdom when it comes to fairness in women's and girls' sports.
But seeing as you're already on your high horse and beckoning for the scold's bridle to be brought out, here's another line making the rounds amongst the sort of women you find despicable for you to get huffy about: Lia Thomas puts the HE in cheat.
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Not how it came across to me. Nor to others. People were forced to walk on eggshells to address this issue.
Anyway the "yes it's wrong and unfair and arbitrary, and yes the female athletes have very legitimate complaints, but it's infrequent so what's the difference?" is not much of an argument. It is the admission of not having one.
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Wise Old Man wrote:
…
Lia Thomas is a woman. Full stop.
...No. He is a man. You are wrong.
Lies do not change reality, no matter how many people believe them.If Will Thomas believes his is a flying unicorn, you would tell him to climb to the top of a skyscraper, spread his imaginary wings, and “live his reality”. Your sanction of his delusion would not save him from the consequences of the real world. I would tell him to seek psychiatric help immediately… and stay away from tall buildings. Which of us is more compassionate?
I have the same advice for him today. Either he is an epic troll, or he’s mentally ill.
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DiscoGary wrote:
Wise Old Man wrote:
…
Lia Thomas is a woman. Full stop.
...No. He is a man. You are wrong.
Lies do not change reality, no matter how many people believe them.If Will Thomas believes his is a flying unicorn, you would tell him to climb to the top of a skyscraper, spread his imaginary wings, and “live his reality”. Your sanction of his delusion would not save him from the consequences of the real world. I would tell him to seek psychiatric help immediately… and stay away from tall buildings. Which of us is more compassionate?
I have the same advice for him today. Either he is an epic troll, or he’s mentally ill.
So being a woman is the same as being a unicorn to you? Do you think women all recklessly endanger their lives and need to seek help? Have you ever spoken to a real flesh and blood woman?
You don't understand how analogies work, bud.
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Why can’t Thomas be a unicorn and fly?
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Define a “woman”.
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99.9 percent of women are human beings born with the female version of human sexual and reproductive organs and the feminine version of a human brain. Most are happy living in the world as women, are attracted to men, and could not begin to imagine living in the world as men and having male secondary sex characteristics. A small percentage of human beings were born with a birth defect called transsexualism whereby (in the case of mtfs) a human is born with the male version of human sexual and reproductive organs, but due to insufficient release of testosterone during in utero development, their brains fail to fully masculinize and their brain structures are more similar to other women than to men.
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Eastofeden wrote:
99.9 percent of women are human beings born with the female version of human sexual and reproductive organs and the feminine version of a human brain. Most are happy living in the world as women, are attracted to men, and could not begin to imagine living in the world as men and having male secondary sex characteristics. A small percentage of human beings were born with a birth defect called transsexualism whereby (in the case of mtfs) a human is born with the male version of human sexual and reproductive organs, but due to insufficient release of testosterone during in utero development, their brains fail to fully masculinize and their brain structures are more similar to other women than to men.
By that definition is Thomas a woman? Have we confirmed that Thomas has this second condition? it’s been measured? even if it has, it still qualifies as a mental illness just like many other chemical imbalances in the brain.
what if He had been born with a “unicorn brain”. Would that make him a unicorn?
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Has any effort been made to accommodate women who become men in the sports world? Are they not now at a disadvantage competitively and should the NCAA adapt a point system or provide them some advantage in racing such as having them get 50-80 meter distance less than the actual distance for say the 400. Back in my day, the NY Armory used to handicap the 600 yd races where some athletes started on the other side of the track, based on their seed time and it took a huge effort to close the gap by the end of the race.
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Eastofeden wrote:
99.9 percent of women are human beings born with the female version of human sexual and reproductive organs and the feminine version of a human brain. Most are happy living in the world as women, are attracted to men, and could not begin to imagine living in the world as men and having male secondary sex characteristics. A small percentage of human beings were born with a birth defect called transsexualism whereby (in the case of mtfs) a human is born with the male version of human sexual and reproductive organs, but due to insufficient release of testosterone during in utero development, their brains fail to fully masculinize and their brain structures are more similar to other women than to men.
I know this is how gender dysphoria is explained by the current medical research, but it does not explain the presence of FTM people, does it?
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Funny how some kiss the fanny of a crazy person to the detriment of scores of normal people. Sad commentary on life in current America.
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RunRagged wrote:
Wise Old Man wrote:
Wow, just read through this thread. So much vitriol and hate. The cherry on the top was Run Ragged comparing Thomas to Putin. That’s despicable in my opinion. Truly. All this bs that Thomas is a malignant narcissist. Does anybody know her who has posted? Lia Thomas is a woman. Full stop. She’s a decent but unremarkable woman swimmer. She finished first, 5th and 8th. No records were broken. She’s still like 10 sec slower than Ledecky in her best event. Women’s swimming is just fine it seems after this championship. Life goes on. In the pursuit of meaningful competition, Thomas should not have been permitted to compete, I agree, but that does not excuse a lot of what’s been said about her or other trans athletes. I’m not sure if there is a fair path to allowing trans women to compete in the women’s category, like after some period of testosterone suppression, or not, and I freely acknowledge the biological differences between men and women that bear on athletic performance, on average, though there’s considerable overlap. (At my best as a male runner I would had my ass kicked by all elite woman in every event over 800m.) Regardless none of this excuses the TERFs l, and all of the hate.
Oh c'mon, mate. Bet you thought Jonathan Swift was serious when he wrote his famous essay saying that the obvious solution to the Irish potato famine was for the people of the Emerald Isle to eat their offspring.
Someone on LRC said that Thomas had done a good deed for women's swimming by bringing attention to it. To illustrate the flaw of that reasoning, I made an analogy pointing up the absurdity.
Also, how come you feel it's perfectly within your rights as a bloke to slag off women like me by tarring us with the misogynistic slur "TERFs," but you think we should be condemned as "despicable" for not being sweet, deferential and ladylike in our own choice of words? How come it's "despicable" and "hate" for women to stand up for ourselves, our own sports, our sex, and our boundaries? Why is it okay in your view for some of your sex to ride roughshod over women's rights and invade women's sports, but it's unacceptable for women to express anger about it?
Why do women have to show respect and kindness for Lia Thomas and reverence and credulity for Thomas's claim that Thomas is now a woman too when Thomas has shown absolutely zero respect for female people and no regard for fair play?
Men on LRC say vile, sexist things about women all the time. But I've never noticed you voicing objections to that. You reserve all your ire for women like me.
Also, you've said very clearly on other threads about women's sports that you don't believe that girls and women have a right to female-only sports anyways - and you've informed me that feminism which focuses on what is in the best interests of female people and is fair to female people is the racist outdated feminism of "old white women." The new, "improved" feminism of 2022, you told me, is all about including, centering and showing kindness to males like Thomas. The shiny new, supposedly superior feminism of nowadays that you've been so kind to educate me about says that girls and women are morally obliged to budge up and step aside so that males like Thomas can express their "inner womanliness" by invading women's sports and exposing their male genitals in women's locker rooms and they never, ever have to hear anyone tell them, "No, this is not your place. Stay in your own lane."
Since you hold and espouse ideas about women's sports and women's rights that strike me as misogynistic and just plain cockamamie, I see no reason to defer to your supposedly greater wisdom when it comes to fairness in women's and girls' sports.
But seeing as you're already on your high horse and beckoning for the scold's bridle to be brought out, here's another line making the rounds amongst the sort of women you find despicable for you to get huffy about: Lia Thomas puts the HE in cheat.
If you don’t consider Lia a woman, then yes, you are a trans-exclusionary feminist , I think by definition. I don’t think TERF is a slur, but simply an accurate description of your position (I’ll leave out the radical part). Do you think Lia is a woman?
Regardless of the former, if you think it’s cute or appropriately ironic to compare Lia to Putin in the current environment, both because of this controversy and the atrocities in the Ukraine, then yes, that’s despicable.
My problem with you isn’t about whether or not Lia should be allowed to compete. In the end, I think the answer is no. My problem is that you ooze contempt for her and show no empathy. You can bash me all you want. I’m not going to yield on Lia’s humanity and that she deserving of respect. I certainly don’t think doing so shows any disrespect to all other women.
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I did not realize that the female who took second in the 500 Free won a silver medal in the Tokyo Olympics. If I were Katie Ledecky I would be very worried about Paris.
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GTFOH with men rationalizing this dude's narcissism. Is this not the ultimate "mansplain" ? No, let me tell you girls what is and isn't a woman, and what it's like...
"Go with God," Lia, nobody cares what you identify as or who you have sex with-- though it'd be ironic if you face some of workplace and wage discrimination most women deal with at some point.
But Will / Lia isn't Rosa Parks, isn't Jackie Robinson... isn't Harriet Tubman either.
Just some jerkoff who put HIS needs for approbation and awards over those of his / her sisters whose hard work and ambitions we're right there in the pool to appreciate-- or ignore.
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