50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

lucKY2b wrote:Around here, I see a lot of people that engage in this same kind of “Weekend Warrior” training…maintenance miles during the week (maybe a bit of cross-training with a dash of speed-work), then gobs of LSD miles come every Saturday.

I hope it was transparent, that when I said "here", I was talking about my physical locality. I suspect that you all observe similar patterns where you live, too.

@Edgewood: Nice race story, and pretty brave to double up 5k's so close together. Do you feel that you raced the first one knowing that you still had another one to do?

@Charlie: the more I read what you are doing, the more I'm curious where it'll get you. Also, I would *love* to get back to where I'm running 3:20/km for 3k...but I don't see that happening anytime soon; 3:30/km (Norm Green's marathon pace, haha) this weekend is a pie-in-the-sky point for now.

@Rtype: I wish there was a little meter that would tell me when I'm in a danger zone. It's so hard to know when that lines been crossed. I hope that you can find whatever exercises/modality/equipment/technique you need that will allow you to get back to training the way you'd like to train.

Cheers!

Hey lucky, I don't think so. If anything I was thinking to go all out on the first and just do what I could on the second. Both courses were on streets I run every day so I knew what to expect in that regard.

In the first race I was with a younger guy that indicated he wanted to go under 20 for the first time. We had been gapped and were comfortble over the next group, I wasn't going to let him go. With the 6 flat second mile I though we were well under- now I realize the mile markers were all wrong. So much for a certified course.

Once the second race started I was surprised how good I felt and got clear quickly. Everytime I turned a corner I was able to throw in a short surge. There were no mile markers whatsoever, just sorority sisters holding balloons and pointing the way. When the guy came up on me with about 50 yards to go I didn't want to hurt that bad and turned him loose.

What made the double intriguing are the tempo runs Salazar has Rupp doing after his races. What kind of interval/ rest period are they putting between those efforts?

I did have a litle pep in the step this evening for 11 miles.

Glad you enjoyed the photos L2B. Yes, great camraderie and some beautiful scenery.

A quick day by day summary of our week long hike.

Fri- Feb 22.

Flew from Hobart on a cramped light plane to the stark white airstrip at Melaleuca. A pretty casual 3 hour hike over rolling moorland brought us to the Southern Ocean at Cox Bight. Pleasant beach walking between the Bight and the Freney Lagoon was followed by a short scramble rthrough scrub to first camp at beautiful Point Eric beach.Perfect spot for some body surfing. We had a visit from a pod of dolphins. I did a bit of beach running to find a creek to fill the water bottles. Perfect relaxing day.

Sat- Feb 23.

A few kms along the beach before heading inland toward Red Point Hills. A hot morning through treeless moorland and a few calf deep bogs. We arrived at the base of Red Point after about 90 mins. A steep climb from sea level to 250m in about a km. Great views of both where we'd been and where we were headed.

A long winding descent still devoid of trees with the temps now in the 90s F. Quite a welcome relief at the bottom when we reached a couple of creeks surrounded by thick wet eucalypt forests. From the creeks we encountered a series of short steep climbs mostly in full sun, occassional relief with a couple of shady creek crossings.

Fortunately a couple of kms across a deep swamp had a fairly new boardwalk built across it. We reached a thick area of mossy fern filled forest and Louisa River our site for camp 2 after about 7 hours. We all felt well cooked . A lovely campsite by a fast flowing river. Plenty of water, although like nearly all the water it was tea coloured.

Sun- Feb 24.

The big day!

A pleasant km through the forest and then onto moorland. Not for long though. Directly in front the track rears up and climbs over the Ironbound Range.

The first section is a sharp km gaining 300m. in altitude. This scattered the "troops" pretty quickly. The two mtn runners, myself and Greg attacked it with gusto. Chris (ex sub 2 800m man) stayed close behind. The other guys settled in for the long haul. I was concerned with our only non runner Russ. He'd knocked up a bit in the previous day's heat and had struggled on the uphills.

The next km was much easier gaining barely 100m but then the track reared up sharply again gaining another 300m inside a km of distance. The last 2kms were much easier with just 200m gained. Greg and I reached the top pretty much together after about 2 hours of climbing, my arms were pretty pumped from using the poles to drive up the hills.

The views were majestic, as breathtaking as the climb was.

Chris reached the top about 20 mins later. Phil and Dev about 90 mins later. Russ with Gary guiding and cajoling him arrived some 15 mins later, exhausted but stoked with his effort.

After a pleasant lunch we headed off to engage the most notorious section of the South Coast Track. A pleasant board walk across alpine heath before arriving at the plummeting descent through thick rain forest. The "track" loses 600m height in 2km. But it is barely ever a track, more just a watercourse working through mud, mossy tree roots, slippery rocks, fallen trees and low branches. This 2kms took over 2 hours to pick through. The next hour was less steep but equally challenging under foot (and overhead). 3.5 hours after leaving the top 3 of us arrived at Little Deadmans Bay site of camp 3. The other 4 took another 90 minutes to arrive.

Mon- 25 Feb.

An "easy" day started with some bog hiking. I was happy to lead the way through thigh deep mud, some of the others were a bit reluctant to follow but we all ended up pretty filthy.

A mix of sandy beach and coastal forest hiking brought us to Prion Beach a 6km stretch of sand.

4kms in we met New River Lagoon. To cross the lagoon 2 row boats have been placed on either side. It took us over an hour to get everyone and their packs across and make sure there were boats on both sides.

The next hour was spent forcing our way through dense scrub on the sand dunes beside the lagoon.

We left the beach and headed up through forest, across boggy moorland, and onto Osmiridium Beach for camp 4. A wild surf and water full of huge fish, very nice.

My night was disturbed several times by a pesky pademelon (a small wallaby)who kept poking around my tent. In the morning she and her little joey flitted about the camp unconcerned by the human prescence.

Tue- Feb 26.

Another easier day. A mix of boggy moorland and hilly coastal forest leading to the beautiful Surprise Bay then another hour of fairly steep coastal forest walking and a steep descent to Granite Beach. A quick rock scramble led up to a great campsite above Granite Beach.

Wed- Feb 27. Our luck with the weather ran out. A drizzling rain made the already muddy track something of a quagmire.

The first 1.5km climbs about 400m so it was steep and the mud was deep. The track is heavily overgrown and the wet understory made the going tough. By the top of the first climb I had 6 leaches on my hands. The rain and wind made for chilly conditions so we kept moving rather than regrouping. The track deteriorated and at times the mud was hip deep. High up in the hills I stepped onto a firm lookng bit of track and my left leg plunged hip deep into a mud hole. I hauled my self up and out but had given the ankle a good jarring. I struggled from there on and let Greg and Chris push on without me, I still had the group of 4 someway back behind me. The ankle was pretty sore but the next 2 hours was through deep mud and the chill of the mud seemed to be helpful. The roots, rocks and dozens of fallen trees less so. Once onto drier terrain for the last hour the ankle did blow up quite a bit and I found the steep, drier forest trails of the last 2kms quit tough. The other boys caught up to me justas we reached camp. Camp was at a rivulet right on the ocean. I spent the rest of the daylight hours giving the leg a soak in the surging tidal waters.

Thu- Feb 28. I was up early, soaked the ankle, wrapped it and took 2 voltaren. I headed out with our two backmarkers Dev and Russ across the beach. After leaving the beach a very steep climb rose up through dense forest. The ankle loosened up and Dev and Russ encouraged me to push on as they were struggling to keep pace uphill. The steep descent was no issue and I made my way down to the South Cape Bay and waited for the group to arrive. We left the Ocean at Lion Rock and scramble up one last challenging section, a short cliff climb. From here it was a leisurely 2 hour march back to civilisation at Cockle Creek.

We returned to Hobart thursday afternoon by bus. The next couple of days were spent in Hobart devouring food and drink with taste.

The ankle was nicely discoloured and swollen. It is now still a bit puffy and I haven't had a run yet. Been out on the bike, kyakking and doing plenty of walking.

The SC Track is wild and isolated. Extremely beautiful mix of country. There are no facilities except for pit toilets at some of the campsites.

Another great Tasmanian experience.

Ken, you are showing great spirit, tenacity and creativeness. I am impressed. It would be interesting to have someone doing a film documentary of your efforts. I am also imagining you in a hospital gown (flapping open in back) while spinning away on the bike, and that BP cuff on your arm :) That'd show cancer who's in charge, right? Hope my "off the cuff" humor doesn't offend, you are certainly showing cancer what it's up against when it faces a world class warrier doing battle with it.

My wife and I were able to run the St Pat's 4 miler with zero rain until after the race, and she went sub 30 (she's 55) and win her age group, then on to an 8 hour work day. I went 31:10 and put in 5.5 hours myself, with a 3rd place. With our ugly weather, we felt like it was a good effort, didn't dig deep, and we were able to run an easy 74 minutes the day after, for 34 miles to the week.

*Dang y'all boys are posting some motivating stuff.

*Can feel the spring racing fever heating up.

*Just wish I didnt have this bad bug... intestinal with stomach cramps. Not really too bad other than how it dehydrates the body. Caught mine on my long haul trip home from Brazil last Friday. 3 planes 3 airports 6 filthy dirty and overcrowded germ breeding situations.

*Otherwise I'm happy to be getting fit by the week & month as we all know it takes that long at age 52+.

*Planning to test the road racing fitness this Sat for Shamrock. Will I see you there Charlie?

KP

KP

I will be there in spirit.

Which race are you running?

Racing plans are meager maybe the 5000 at Hood Community College the third week of June.

Edgewood wrote:

What made the double intriguing are the tempo runs Salazar has Rupp doing after his races. What kind of interval/ rest period are they putting between those efforts?

I did have a litle pep in the step this evening for 11 miles.

And I think Gaucher and Flanagan were doing intervals after a 5K race. The theory is that hard days should be very hard and easy days should be very easy, and for runners at that level a 5K is not hard enough!? Daniels says total weekly I-pace running is the lesser of 10K or 8% of weekly miles, total weekly R-pace is the lesser of 5 miles or 5% (2nd edition, p.35). Two 5Ks is right in the ballpark....

Thanks, Mo'pak, for that nice travelogue. I also really enjoyed the many additional pictures that you've posted up on FB...absolutely stunning rugged scenery!

Edgewood, I think Alan B. gave a good answer. Although it still feels like a lot of racing in a short amount of time (2 5k's in 2 hours). I personally find it hard to double back that fast. I've run the River-to-River Relay a few times (8 runners, 80 miles, so you run three 5k's in the span of about 6 hours), and that about does me in (If I didn't have teammates, I'd probably bag it. They really help pull you through.) I've also noticed that effect where you feel pretty springy the next day after a good day of racing; the follow-up day is when it usually catches up to me and I crash.

Mike, your wife ran quite a nice race. Nice to have a day without weather...yes?

Speaking of which, the weather is looking iffy here for this Saturday, so I'm still on the fence for the 3k. I also seem to have caught some kind of mild stomach bug. It's not a knock-out punch....but I am a little on the queasy side. Good luck to any of you all doing those traditional Shamrock Shuffles!

lucKY2b wrote:

I've also noticed that effect where you feel pretty springy the next day after a good day of racing; the follow-up day is when it usually catches up to me and I crash.

Maybe it's actually the springy day that is catching up to you. Last year I was still in the thrall of Lydiard, it kind of went to my head that I could FEEL SO GOOD doing a 90 minute run the day after a Saturday long run. This year on Sunday I am just doing the most boring possible short out-and-back. Monday it's two runs like that. The Tuesday workout approves.

lucKY2b wrote:

Mike, your wife ran quite a nice race.

+1

WHAT: Master's Mile

WHEN Saturday 3/23 11:50 a.m.

WHERE: San Francisco State Univ. 19th & Holloway at the Johnny Mathis Invitational Track Meet

TO ENTER: (it is FREE) with optional donation to our track & field scholarship foundation

Just e-mail name, age, e-mail address to Tom Lyons at

mtnlyons@sbcglobal.net

before Friday 3/22 @ 12 noon

hey, I thought I did ok too, lucky2b. I was 3rd of 33 in the old man's division (60-64), my wonderful wife was just blessed by being 6 years younger and faster :) :)

Ok, that's enough patting myself, I'm getting all springy and excited now :)

Mike Lundgren wrote:hey, I thought I did ok too, lucky2b.

Sorry, Mike! Didn't mean to dis you; I guess I was focused on how well your wife did. Nice job! May you boldly spring forth into Spring.

MikeF wrote:

WHAT: Master's Mile

WHEN Saturday 3/23 11:50 a.m.

WHERE: San Francisco State Univ. 19th & Holloway at the Johnny Mathis Invitational Track Meet

I'd be there in a heartbeat, if only it weren't 2,400 miles to get there. Have a great race; hope you get lots of support for the event!

Also, I guess several of you already saw this thread on age and slowing down:

Since I didn't start back to running until my mid-40's, I didn't really have anything to add to that conversation. One could always look at the WMA age-grade tables for a composite answer, I suppose.

Cheers!

Wednesday 3.5 miles, Thursday 3.8 miles

Friday I am taking off and doing 10 miles Saturday.

My half is scheduled for 3/23

Art

http://fitatfifty-art.blogspot.com/

Masters Mile on that fantastic track/environment sounds great Mike. If not for Spring Break elsewhere with family I'd be toeing the line. Raincheck?

KP

Indeed KP, San Francisco State Univ track is a great facility...tucked down in a bowl the way it is makes it virtually windless...really has a Euro feel to me...love that facility but then again I am sverely biased as it is also my alma mater ;}

Decent week of 'nearly age 57' training highlighted by Thursday morning's dawn patrol track session:

600 @ 2:09

400 @ 83

600 @ 2:02

400@ 82

400@ 77

400@ 75

Age 55-59 All American standard for mile is 5:30 and hope to challenge that barrier come June

Anyone else find motivation / challenge by the All American track standards? They are here:

http://www.nationalmastersnews.com/allamer/aa_tf_m.htm

They always seem "soft" the year or so before I hit the next age group but once I actually get there or within a year or two thereafter they seem TOUGH. I've noticed this throughout my entire master's t&f career ever since age 40...their pursuit always keeps me going.

Have a fine weekend...'train don't strain'

MF

MikeF wrote:

Anyone else find motivation / challenge by the All American track standards? They are here:

http://www.nationalmastersnews.com/allamer/aa_tf_m.htm

Thanks for the link. Those standards look pretty remote. Your last 400m repeat was right around RP for me.

*************************

Week 93

*************************

Hello 50+ers. It’s the end of my spring break, for what it was worth. A litany of things didn’t go the way I’d hoped. It makes me wonder sometimes whether it is even worth trying to plan things out. Half the decisions I made were based on assumptions that didn’t pan out, ended up costing me time and energy, and left me feeling frustrated and unproductive. But it’s all trivial stuff in the big scheme of things, so I really shouldn’t complain…..but I will vent a little. Sorry.

You can probably tell from this lead-in that I didn’t make it to the start of yesterday’s 3k shuffle; I’ll get to that in a bit. In the mean time, I did manage to haul my arse out the door to get 52 miles in for the week, so that’s something. Here’s how the log reads:

Sun: 10.2 fairly easy

Mon: 5 w/3x1/2-mile (2:40, 2:49, 2:47) +post-run+static+balance

Tue: 6.2 easy-to-moderate +upper

Wed: 8 (4 easy am, 4 @track pm) did 8x(1/2-on, 1/2-off) on this goofy 4-laps-to-a-1500m track with a hill. The on’s were at 37-38s, the off’s were 47-48. Overall time for the 3k (8-laps) was 11:15.

Thur: absolutely nuthin’ (a very frustrating day)

Fri: 12.1 w/9@7:10 avg pace

Sat: 10.6 (5am w/1.55@5:55 pace, 5.6pm mostly on grass) + post-run+upper

Reflections:

Monday’s 1/2’s were really 0.53, 0.53, 0.54 mile runs on bike/foot paths (I scaled down the times to 1/2-mile times as they are easier to compare). The first one was moderately downhill, the second one reversed course and was this moderately uphill (this one hurt as I only gave myself 1.5 minutes rest from the first) and the last one was a flat loop around the stadium (about 3 minute jog after the second). It told me what I wanted to know, that 5:30 mile pace is currently *really* hard to maintain for any distance.

Wednesday’s track workout was a typical one I’ve done as tune-up to a 5k. The on’s were done at about 3k pace, with the off’s at long tempo pace. It felt remarkably good despite the 32 degree temp and 20 mph wind; made me think that the 10:40 time I projected was conservative, and I was looking forward to the race.

Thursday, nothing went right (you can skip the rest of this paragraph, if you don’t want to listen to my belly-aching…I’m just venting here). It was 22 degrees in the AM, so I figured I’d wait until later in the day for a run; it was supposed to get much warmer (around 50 by mid-aft). With the daughter at work, the wife in Louisville, me on spring break, I should be able to do as I please. Right? So my day was planned out, take care of some advising in the morning, go for an early afternoon run. Yeah, didn’t go that way. An email from a student the needed advising, my wife called needing me to FAX something, and my daughter called needing me to go let some dogs out where she was house sitting, because she was going to be working too late. The convolution of all this shtuff kept me either trapped in my office waiting, or getting stuff, or not knowing when I’ll be needed or waiting for further instruction….. just a very off-putting day. I could (and maybe should) have been selfish and just said no. Meanwhile, the weather forecast for Saturday morning predicted 70% chance of Thunderstorms w/ 20mph winds. So should I plunk down the $25 when the weather is so iffy and I’m already a little cash-strapped with the wife back in school? I figured I could wait to decide until Friday. And so it went.

By Friday noon, the chances of T-storms had dropped to 60%, when one of my buddies broadcast a message that he was running 12 at 1pm and wondered whether there were any takers. Then another guy replied that he needed a run that included 8@marathon pace (7:10 for him). So given how Thursday was a disaster, I decided to chuck the iffy race, and join my buddies and help this guy tempo through his marathon training. While I regret not racing (weather kept getting less iffy), Friday’s run was probably the most enjoyable time I had this week, so for me it was a worthwhile trade-off. That said, I *DO* need to get a race in.

Saturday’s weather turned out to be fine, albeit pretty blustery; the storms had all passed just to our north. I went down to at least enjoy the sea of green; it was too late to register, and I wasn’t really in a position to race my best anyways. After the race, I did a cool-down mile with one of my buddies who raced, then went home and was inspired enough to run 1.55 (notice, that it wasn’t quite 3k) at 5:55 pace. Later, after the City’s St. Paddy’s parade, I went out for another 5.5 mile easy run on the grass.

A couple final observations:

-I really find it hard to motivate myself to do ancillary work either when I’ve run 8+ miles for the day or when I’ve not run at all. That attitude needs to change.

-the speed work continues to cause my right hip some problems….not during the workout, but it sure does tighten up ex post facto.

I know this was TMI, but just wanted to give a detailed report of this frustrating week…maybe others can relate to the trials and tribulations that often accompany trying to balance running with the other aspects of our lives. Hopefully, I can toe the line sooner rather than later. We’ve had such up and down weather all spring, it’s been really hard to know what to expect any hour of any day. Fortunately, there are always a lot of races to choose from:

http://www.johnsrunwalkshop.com/race_calendar.html

OK. That’s my bellyaching for the week. I know this venting comes across as petty whining, but I really am grateful and very fortunate to get to do what I do. Any week in which I can log over 50 miles is a good one. Hope you all had productive weeks.

All the best!

Oh, and MikeF, yeah I've used those standards as a bit of motivation in the past when I've ventured on to the track. There are a couple of times on that chart that don't make sense to me. The 50-54 10k seems slow compared to the 5k, for example---I think it should be 37:30. Also, in comparing the 1500m to mile differences in different age categories, they seem pretty inconsistent. In some cases, there's an 18-second difference, in others, there is a 1-minute difference. What's up with that? I like the idea, but it needs tweaking IMHO.

That 1500 mark looks soft to me for some reason. I've gone 5:08, but next year 5:08 might look a whole lot harder at 55.

Extended my days of running per week to 5 with Thu and Fri off. This was step one of regaining fitness. And best of all, this was done pain-free.

Interesting discussion on the thread:

http://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=5085578

on slowing down with aging.

lucKY’s input: “A friend of mine, who is a respected, long-time runner (since late '60s) and coach (since mid '70s), made the following astute observation: Most runners will see improvements for 5 to 6 years after they begin running (assuming adulthood). If they stick with it, they will then plateau for another 5-6 years. After this, their times will drop off for any number of reasons---age, injury, motivation. The kicker is that it doesn't matter much when they start (up to a point). Obviously, this is not a strict rule (there are plenty of exceptions), but represents a general pattern he's observed over the past 40+ years of continuous running and coaching”

I find value in the above in that one of the sources of my injuries over the years is I have found myself at the tail-end of an improvement period and I struggle to extend the improvement. This takes the form of the obvious, training harder, but also, at least in my case, experimenting with different and unproven methodologies of training.

“Finding the magic formula” is akin to Ponce de Leon’s futile quest for the fountain of youth. We reach that plateau, which, for many of us, is a pretty decent plateau, but, OH NOOOO, just over the next ridge is a PR waiting, if only we do the right training, stretch the right way, wear the right shoes….and on and on ad nauseaum……

My current, and, hopefully, enlightened, training, will be to reset the clock back to that period JUST BEFORE I F-ED MYSELF UP straying from the path that brought the most benefits. It sure is easy to get lost in the woods…….

another week gone by....

Sun:2.20 slog again today. second week in a row I haven't enjoyed the long run.

Mon: noon 13km +short hill sprints, pm 6km + core and achilles rehab

Tues: am 6km, pm 3 x 2km (2min) (av 3.58, 3,51, 3.41).

Wed am 90mins Easy (18km), pm core/rehab

Thurs: am 6km, pm "quarters". Rough tonight with a cold icy strong wind. 400s 88-90sec, 200 floats were 50-52sec with the wind and 55-57!! into it.

Fri: am 40min easy, pm core/rehab

Sat: 45min tempo (av HR 90).

Solid week for me. Still waiting for a fitness "breakthrough" - I am not sure how long it will take to "come back" I guess when I get there I will know :-).

Have great week all.