LateRunnerPhil - Tinman Training Through Summer to 5k PR in Sep (Goal ~15:30)

"My easy pace dropped since the shin splints"

hmm, maybe a signal from your body

"I refuse to slow down during workouts."

Yeah, this mentality definitely hasn't backfired in the past.

"legs dead from all the fast paces yesterday in flats."

hmm, maybe a signal from your body to run the right paces

"Legs better, but the sharp shin pain spot is back."

This doesn't seem to be a sign that things are better, but yeah, let's plan on that 10k tempo and 200s tomorrow!

"legs dead in general again from the workout, couldn't move faster but didn't feel the shin at least."

Perhaps a sign from your body of something you shouldn't be doing

"Training through is working well so far."

How is this the conclusion that any sane person could come up with?

But yeah man, go ahead and run a time trial next week - that definitely won't hinder your shin recovery and it might actually help with those perpetual dead legs you seem to be dealing with!

+1

Phil, this is an example of Tinman training?

Then Tinman training is shiit and I can see why Hunter is always injured.

I now understand why injuries arise from tinman athletes.

Thanks for clearing this all up

Hey Phil, want to offer my support. Easy pace dropping, shin pain, and all, it looks like your body may be asking you to lower the intensity. In your heart you know this, but have the courage to ease off. Consistent medium workouts are better than going in cycles of super hard to injured and back.

On 6/24, that was too much fast running in one session. I think you'd be hard-pressed to find even an Olympian who does something like this. The 400s only had 100m jog rest? You are running 3k pace, man. That's not enough rest for those kinds of reps. Instead of developing better economy, you're just running yourself into the ground. You love Tinman, right? Why do you support doing 1ks at CV pace w/ 200 jog but at the same time you want to do 400s at 3k pace w/ 100m jog? The former is a sensible workout while the latter is essentially vVO2max intervals w/ 2:1 rest. Tinman would not vouch for the latter. Tinman is less intense than Daniels, but that workout was more intense than Daniels.

On 6/27, you had a bad day - had to quit a tempo. It's no small problem when you have to quit a tempo. Those types of workouts are meant to feel smooth. Always. On 6/28, you felt "dead" again. That's 2 days in a row, a sign you need to back off. Based on this training week, I think you're doing too much quality.

If you struggle during a tempo, it's not a tempo. Your legs should never truly feel "dead" when you're training. They can feel somewhat heavy, but "dead" is too much. That's not training, just brutalizing yourself.

A general rule of thumb is that you should never have 2 bad days in a row. If you do, that's a red flag. It's okay to feel heavy one day but the next day you should feel better by a large margin.

I almost ALWAYS have shin splints. I had shin splints on less than 10 mpw when I started to run that got so severe I couldn't even walk or push off the wall while swimming. No doctor was able to help me.

Since 01/2018, I'm training consistently - shin splints were always part of it, apart from a few lucky weeks I have shin splints all time, especially after time off they are especially susceptible. If I search my Strava activities for "shin" I can see that I always have them and complain about them. But I managed to train with them, and even race well with them. Each time before a race or workout, they hurt during the warm-up, but then it somehow loosens up and during the race/workout the adrenaline takes care of everything.

This time, the shin pain progressed slowly to a stress fracture. A specific spot formed, roughly 10 inches above the ankle. I added more road runs instead of trails, and ran a lot in the Vaporfly. I set a 10k PR, faster than I've ever run before, on the track and then didn't recover. Instead I did a huge tempo & hill session on the roads, accumulating 20k more in the Vaporfly which is a dangerous shoe for someone with biomechanical issues.

I took off 5 days, twice - first end of April/early May, after I did 2 hour long runs in 6:45 pace and very long, 90 minute workouts on the pavement. I wanted to run more on pavement to get used to the surface, since I trained exclusively on trails before and felt fit but unable to have a good stride on asphalt.

Then the 10k TT, and more hard workouts in the Vaporfly happened. The day after the TT, my legs felt terrible. Two days after the 10k TT, I did a 15 mile long run + 4 mile double. The third day after, legs were dead again. Four days later, I put on again the Vaporfly because it was 50 mph wind and ran a 10k tempo with supportive wind in 5:40/mi pace. During the last 2k I died, but still did 4x30s hills after. Then I doubled 4 miles in the evening which actually felt good.

But after, every run just got worse. I did CV reps in 3:30/k instead of 3:20-3:25/k and struggled and had to cancel the workout. Did a few more runs and a 10x200 workout, but I was just hanging on the pain became too much.

Took 6 days off completely in late May and started again. There is still a big callus / thickening on the spot on my left shin, but it's manageable during running and seems to be getting smaller and better. I've trained the last 3 weeks, slowly building up again and doing plenty of swimming as XC. Also added core. My workouts are all going well, easy runs are slow but it's normal to adapt to workouts, and also the heat makes me a lot slower. Last week in better weather I ran very fast on easy days, so even though the shin is still not 100% healed, I don't think it's holding me back right now and will continue to run to avoid losing muscle and bone strength which will protect me from injury.

tldr - I screwed up again in training, I'm just in my 3rd year or running and still make stupid rookie mistakes, but I don't have much/sharp pain anymore and will keep running. One day, the pain will probably magically disappear, like it has done in the past (and I had many stress fractures/shin splints in my short career already).

The 10x400 in 73-74 wasn't that hard. It was windy, so I wanted to do it at 75-76 but did the first rep too fast and then just kept going. 100m in 40-45s is not a steady jog, it's shuffling and I recover very well during it. Splitting it in 2 sets allowed me to do it without slowing down. I'm training exactly after one of Tinman's plans right now, this workout was scheduled as 10x(60s on, 30s off)@3k on grass, but since I don't have a smooth, long, flat trail available I changed it to 400s on the track, which TME athletes like Hunter have also done already (easier for him tho, since he only needs 61-62s for the 400s and recovers even faster than me during the 100 jog).

The tempo was in 80-85F heat on the track. It was easy, but under such conditions things can change. I'm a heavy sweater and very bad in the heat and need a lot of fluids, so I just called it after 6k, rehydrated and did my 200s which were fun. I'm also changing my mindset, instead of just powering through any fatigue I cut a session, something I would have never been able to do before. It's a step in the right direction, if I want to keep improving I just need to save me from myself, I got the talent to run a lot faster than my 16:15 PR.

And yes, my dead legs are unique, since my pace actually drops. I see people write all time on Strava "heavy legs" after workouts or races but then run the same easy pace as usual. I'm unable to go faster than 8 min/mile if my legs hurt, I'm just slogging through at moderate cadence with very small stride length so it doesn't hurt. But see the positive things - many HS kids/beginner runners run too fast on their easy days. I don't have the choice to run too fast on my easy days, because my legs are too beat up from the training. One time, during a double I felt good and ran 6:20 pace, I thought it was easy but breathing was definitely moderate, and the next workout I felt it.

Why I still do it? I improved from 20:00 to 16:15 in 21 months, despite being completely sedentary for many years and picking up running late in life. I did not get tougher or race harder (my highest HR was during the 20 min 5k's), my body just improved. Same body weight. I've done that with the beat up legs all time, and shin splints. I've ran through two stress fractures in my feet by changing gait and pressure. My body is remodeling/restructuring at a very fast rate, so what applies to most runners might not apply to me. I seem to improve at faster rates, and heal injuries faster than other runners. I would NEVER recommend my style of training/running to anyone else - but it's working for me, and I'll stick with it for now. Just wait for the TT next week, and u'll see I'm right.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

I've done that with the beat up legs all time, and shin splints. I've ran through two stress fractures in my feet by changing gait and pressure. My body is remodeling/restructuring at a very fast rate, so what applies to most runners might not apply to me. I seem to improve at faster rates, and heal injuries faster than other runners. I would NEVER recommend my style of training/running to anyone else - but it's working for me, and I'll stick with it for now. Just wait for the TT next week, and u'll see I'm right.

This is a terrible mentality. Normal runners aren't in severe pain when they run, and your body isn't built differently than anyone else's. This mentality is going to leave you injured for extended periods of time, and probably sooner rather than later. Any id_ot can train through severe pain for some time, but a smart runner will prioritise long term athletic development.

Why do you post your training on Letsrun if you won't listen to any advice people give you? To hear people say you're doing it wrong and then try to (arrogantly) prove them wrong ?

+1

And your PR is not 16:15

I want to serve as experiment - what's possible if someone starts running late in life, and has a passion, maybe even slight addiction for the sport and speed. What good things do I do in training, what bad things, and learn from these experiences, together. Lots of people post here, so it seems to be of general interest, regardless of the outcomes (reaching my 5k goals this season). If I miss my goals, or end up being heavily injured again (like last winter, where I was out for 6 weeks due to a sacral stress fracture), we can analyze the training and my attitude and find potential flaws. If I hit my goals, maybe the training based on Tinman is not that bad and more is possible than other people think who set a limit to their performances, especially if they pick up running late in life and didn't do sports in HS or college. It took me 8 years to break through the 20 minute 5k barrier from the moment I decided to do something for my fitness and become a runner.

I took advice in many times - often later, than earlier. I adjusted my CV paces and tempo paces and train slower now - no more oxygen debt, crazy breathing and hanging on to complete a workout. No more dead quads the day after a VO2MAX session. No more completely dry mouth anymore after running 400s too hard. I trained too hard last year, which interrupted my rate of progression - I got sick a few times, and did not improve stamina/endurance wise. I ran a faster 5k, but just due to extreme lactate tolerance and ability to run under fatigue/acidosis. I got absolutely crushed in a longer race on hilly terrain and my lactate threshold test became a lot worse.

I'm happy for any advice or criticism I get - I need people to look at my training in a critical way, or I'll just end up running myself into the ground again, or miss an opportunity to run to my potential. Thanks to everyone who is posting and along on the journey.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

If I hit my goals, maybe the training based on Tinman is not that bad

You. Are. Not. Training. Like. Tinman. Prescribes.

Keeping the ball rolling does not equal training hard while injured, which you do on an almost daily basis.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

This time, the shin pain progressed slowly to a stress fracture. A specific spot formed, roughly 10 inches above the ankle.

Took 6 days off completely in late May and started again. There is still a big callus / thickening on the spot on my left shin, but it's manageable during running and seems to be getting smaller and better.

One day, the pain will probably magically disappear, like it has done in the past (and I had many stress fractures/shin splints in my short career already).

How do you know you have a stress fracture? As I wrote earlier in the thread, your symptoms are more indicative of a muscle tear. Why not go to a physiotherapist, not a doctor? They will do an ultrasound scan and will see rigorously whether it is a stress fracture or muscle tear in seconds.

Why don't you bite the bullet and just pay for Tinman to coach you? You seem to infatuated by him and it seems a small price to pay to have some input from the man himself.

I've seen other people who've come to running late who pushed too hard. They made big improvements for a few years before their bodies started to fall apart and they had to back off. Seems you're on that same path. Sometimes you need to make your own mistakes though, it's just a question of whether you'll learn from them. I doubt it, you sound deluded.

possibly a muscle tear wrote:

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

This time, the shin pain progressed slowly to a stress fracture. A specific spot formed, roughly 10 inches above the ankle.

Took 6 days off completely in late May and started again. There is still a big callus / thickening on the spot on my left shin, but it's manageable during running and seems to be getting smaller and better.

One day, the pain will probably magically disappear, like it has done in the past (and I had many stress fractures/shin splints in my short career already).

How do you know you have a stress fracture? As I wrote earlier in the thread, your symptoms are more indicative of a muscle tear. Why not go to a physiotherapist, not a doctor? They will do an ultrasound scan and will see rigorously whether it is a stress fracture or muscle tear in seconds.

He is exaggerating.

Look at this thread. Phil loves the attention.

Refusing to slow down when you start a workout too fast is stupid. Running a workout too fast is counter productive. It does more harm than good.

You need to work on your ego. The "I'm not the kind of guy who slows down during a workout" will kill you.

Also what's the point of making the hard days the hardest possible?

10k tempo + 10x200, really?? who does this? I'm sure even elite runner don't do this.

10x400 a 3k pace + hills sprints + strides???

Do the extra speed work (strides, hills) on easy days, not on workout days.

And listen to your body.

Impala31 wrote:

Refusing to slow down when you start a workout too fast is stupid. Running a workout too fast is counter productive. It does more harm than good.

You need to work on your ego. The "I'm not the kind of guy who slows down during a workout" will kill you.

Also what's the point of making the hard days the hardest possible?

10k tempo + 10x200, really?? who does this? I'm sure even elite runner don't do this.

10x400 a 3k pace + hills sprints + strides???

Do the extra speed work (strides, hills) on easy days, not on workout days.

And listen to your body.

+1

Phil, why do you refuse to slow down during workouts? That 10 x 400, you planned to run 76 but ran the first in 73. Look at your watch at the 200 next time and adjust before it's too late. Or just slow down #2 to 76 etc.

Impala31 wrote:

Refusing to slow down when you start a workout too fast is stupid. Running a workout too fast is counter productive. It does more harm than good.

You need to work on your ego. The "I'm not the kind of guy who slows down during a workout" will kill you.

Also what's the point of making the hard days the hardest possible?

10k tempo + 10x200, really?? who does this? I'm sure even elite runner don't do this.

10x400 a 3k pace + hills sprints + strides???

Do the extra speed work (strides, hills) on easy days, not on workout days.

And listen to your body.

I'm following Tinman's 5k/10k prep plan on Finalsurge. So the workouts are reasonable. Tempo in Tinman's system is "Tinman Tempo" pace, or MP, or a pace I could hold for 2 hours in a race. Not very stressful compared to threshold runs. And 10x200 at mile pace, with 200m rest, is just a rhythm workout. It's nothing like the 20x200 all-out, like 20x200 in 25.5 that Rupp and Farah were doing under Salazar.

The 400s+hill sprints+strides are similar. The 400s mostly stressed the aerobic system, but weren't too hard on the legs. The hill sprints really work the quads and whole body. And the strides were mostly neuromuscular coordination. After the 400s, I was well warmed-up for the part of the workout with more muscular strain. Classic Tinman combo workout.

The pacing on the 10x400 workout went wrong. Of course I check my pace every 200m, sometimes 100. But when you go through 200 in 35 you can't really safe a planned 76 rep anymore. And since it was already very easy, I kept up the pace, thinking I can probably do 10 without trouble anyway. But after 5 reps I added a short break to rehydrate and recover, which "saved" the workout anyway.

The schedule is simple:

Mo - Easy LR

Tu - Easy Run & Strides

Wed - Workout

Thu - Easy Run

Fr - Easy Run & Strides

Sat - Workout/TT/Race

Sun - Easy Run

So there is already some speed on the "other" days, but it's slightly less intense than the 30s hill sprints or 200m reps at the end of workouts. The strides focus on relaxation, smooth running, and high turnover. They also prime me for the workout the following day.

Lastly, there is positive news for a change - today's long run felt very good and was a lot faster than usual at no effort. As a result, I'm extending the Saturday TT from 2k to 3k, to make it more challenging.

LateRunnerPhil wrote:

As a result, I'm extending the Saturday TT from 2k to 3k, to make it more challenging.

Great logic.

Body feeling better? Then let's make it feel worse.

Body recovering? Then let's put it under more strain.

Like you said, you are an experiment.

I hope you evolve quickly or break quickly, because you will either prove your point and we will learn something, or you will change your approach/go away, and stop promoting what seems obvious to everyone but you, that is, a path to overtraining and/or injury.

Any way, I hope you don't get seriously injured.

Don't forget to do 10x30" all out hill sprints before the 3k TT and 10x200 at 800 pace after.

Since the 3k is ran at a speed lower than vV02max, you defenitely need some anaerobic stimulus to make it worth it.

Also you don't have a stress facture yet on both shin so everething is going perfectly well. You might consider adding some 1000s during the long run ans 300s after recovery runs.

No pain no gain so the more painful is your body, the better it is. Actually having several stress fracture a year shows that all those who tell you to take it easier are wrong. The bigger is the stress, the bigger is the adaptation. GO ON.

Also don't forget to add some Salazar's workouts like Mo Farah. Yeah if you wanna run as fast as him, you have to do the same workouts, that's the way!

Be careful, you should never feel good or conformable any day. That is for lazy hobby jogger. not you!! As soon as you don't feel exhausted, add a workout. As soon as you don't feel shin pain, go on pavement for a long run.