former agnostic wrote:
Yeah, that one wasn't too well explained.
Point was in line with a round revolving earth would dismiss a flat earth because the other stars/planets mentioned would have to rotate with the sun around the earth. Luke knew this of course.
Question, who said what about Moe?
I think it was Curly....but don't worry, he got even by gouging his eyes out.
Yes, who did choose to bring upon me with insult? Nyuk, nyuk, nyuk.
It was a troll trying to bait him by making a rude comment about intelligence. The post was deleted by the mods, thankfully.
The debate here has been pretty good. I don't expect people to change their beliefs because of what someone else believes.
If Noah's ark is real, and it was not a boat but simply a place up high the was intended to protect animals is a specific region of the planet, then that would be very interesting.
People who don't believe the story would say "I told you so." There was never a boat, the entire world was not flooded, and ALL species were not collected by Noah.
Those who do believe would continue to believe and simply change their belief that Noah did have an ark and he protect many, but not all species. Noah accomplished what he was supposed to do. Survive a flood by moving some people and many animals to a high location, and then when it was safe everyone, and the animals, when back down start over again in a devastated part of the world.
Quoting the three stoogies, the masters of insults.
"All for one!" "One for all!" "Every man for himself!"
- Larry, Moe and Curly; RESTLESS KNIGHTS, 1935
The above summarizes what the Letsrun forum is all about.
pleaseohpleaseohplease wrote:
Yes, I did mean "400 AD" before when referring to Augustine.
And to carry Augustine's work further, he mentions that the dimensions of the ark share the same relative dimensions as the human body, thus representing the human body, Christ's body, and the church.
As I said before, there may be truth to a story without the story being written as a camera would record it. There probably have been massive floods over land during the history of man. Any climate researcher would tell you that our world is headed toward a significant rising of water, and to people that spent their entire lives in one small area of the world, a regional flood would have felt like the entire world flooding. Think about how this may have felt to someone along the Jewish heritage in this specific area of the world. There is truth to it, though it may not have played out as written.
And the story was probably recorded as a way of bridging the gap between what the author was trying to foreshadow and what the author knew had occurred, according to Jewish oral history.
If it was a local flood, why the hell would he build an ark for it? Wouldn't it be easier to just move?
An ark is not necessarily a boat, it can be something ground-based. An ark can be a container for something considered important, like a Torah, the Ten Commandments, or a lot of animals.
a n i m e o.k. but a myth all of that bye bow shit
has been at 33 wrote:
First off you are pretty brave to call Moe stupid. Nice guy but don't piss him off. Having known him for 12 years I can say he one of the most intelligent people you'll ever meet. Genius IQ. Taught himself spanish, french, and has had contracts be held valid in federal court and to my knowledge has never taken a law course. Just my 2 cents for a great guy. And a good man who do anything for most anyone this board. BTW two of his hobbies are genealogy and history I guess both deal in numbers.
He's got to be trolling here, like with the thread he started under another name about putting his IQ on his resume. Speaking of IQ, 137 isn't necessarily genius level.
Ok, I can't take it. The post about Adam and Eve gene being predicted in the Bible has gone too far.
This cannot be true: A flood destroys all life on Earth (including everything that lives in the oceans), but one guy and his sons build a big boat and collect enough living organisms to successfully repopulate the entire planet.
Just as a matter of ship building, the ark's dimensions are just not seaworthy. The ark would have been longer than a football field and over three stories tall. This would have required a massive amount of ballast to keep the ark from flipping over in the water. It would have taken hundreds of men weeks to construct. A vessel as large as the ark was not constructed until around 1880.
And repopulating the Earth? If the Earth was covered by a great flood for 40 days, most vegatation would be lost. How did the bees survive long enough to re-pollenate plant life so herbivores could survive?
And did Noah have an aquarium on board or did God give the fish a pass?
Don't play the miracle card if you think it means something to find physical evidence of the ark. Either you play in the world of Science or you don't. You cannot dart back and forth when it suits your arguments.
Moes Tavern wrote:
I get a couple of calls about this (since I'm evidently not anonymous) and I thought this thread was deleted... Call me stupid or whatever but I was asked how the Bible was proven true from Wendell and others. I'll just quickly list this
1. Oceans, not flat on the bottom. Many valleys and mountains. Science thought ti was flat. This was written almost 3,000 years ago in the Books of Samuel and Jonah.
2. Stars. More than you can count, not the 1100 that science thought. Was written in Jeremiah.
3. Blood, the key to life. Science use leaches to suck the blood out until a few hundred years ago. Was written in Leviticus.
4. Water, running water used to cleans hands of germs. Was written in Levitcus as well.
5. All living males a common DNA ancestor. Science has proven the "Adam" gene.
6. All living femals have a common ancestor. The Eve gene.
7. Wind. Blows in cyclones. Science thought it blew East and West. Was written in Ecclessiases (sic).
8. Ocean. Has hidden springs to provide water supply. Written in Job.
9. Light. It moves. Again, was written in Job.
10. Air. Has weight. Was written in Job.
11. Earth. It floats. Not supported by Atlas or Thor... Was written in Job, again.
12. Earth. It is round. Was written in Isaiah.
These are off the top of my head and may contain typos. Unless Voanage comes on back from keeping me only, The above were given via to man to write given by God, proving wisdom that way beyond man to understand or grasp. Seriously, how would man be able to go to the bottom of the ocean to know it had hills and valleys 3,000 years ago? This is totally separate from Egyptians using math and brute stregnth to build the pyramids.
Lastly, I mention King David because someone mentioned it. Outside the Bible there was no proof that David ever existed. "Scholars" balked at this and skeptics used it to further their belief. In 1995 a team of excavators found the "house of David" and at the same time another unassociated group found tablets refering to a battle with a known king and David's troops. David lost, but skeptics silenced. Now history and "scholars" accept David.
THIS is the genius that somebody was talking of a few pages back?
For evolution-the simple stuff is at the at bottom of the rock layers, and it gets more complex to the top. Is that not kind of damning? On a different note, remember Planet Earth and the cave animals with no eyes? Why did God still design them with eye sockets?
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All of you posting on this thread need to go rub one out and relax.
The alter boy solution only works for alter boys. Young boy's minds revolving around rubbing one out. There's really nothing that is more important to a young male than that.
Yes, the story is crazy. And no it wasn't 2 of every animal, it was 7 of every clean animal and 2 of every unclean animal. Regardless, our little minds cannot compare to the mind of God. He spoke the earth into existence for crying out loud, how could we ever be on His level? You can choose to believe what you wish of course. I used to choose to believe that if there was a God He wouldn't have allowed me to grow up in an abusive home where I feared for my life. Now when I look at the the heavens on a clear night I wonder how anyone couldn't believe in God...After reading the bible front to back last year my perspective has changed signifigantly. My faith is stronger than ever. And let me tell you, the story of Noah isn't the craziest story I promise. After the flood (which the bible says didn't just come from above but that water also sprung forth from the ground) God stretched across the sky a beautiful rainbow to serve as a reminder that He will never flood the earth again...This life of ours has meaning beyond some random molecules binding just right and then "BAM!" there's a human with a conscience. God knitted each of us together in out mother's womb. He has a plan for each of us and He gives us the choice to accept it or reject it. I promise that a life without Him will never have the signifigance that a life with Him will have. You were never meant to go at this life on your own. Shed your pride and submit to something greater than us all. You might than understand the story of Noah beyond the craziness of it.
For God so loved the world...
hikerdonovan wrote:
Yes, the story is crazy. And no it wasn't 2 of every animal, it was 7 of every clean animal and 2 of every unclean animal. Regardless, our little minds cannot compare to the mind of God. He spoke the earth into existence for crying out loud, how could we ever be on His level? You can choose to believe what you wish of course. I used to choose to believe that if there was a God He wouldn't have allowed me to grow up in an abusive home where I feared for my life. Now when I look at the the heavens on a clear night I wonder how anyone couldn't believe in God...After reading the bible front to back last year my perspective has changed signifigantly. My faith is stronger than ever. And let me tell you, the story of Noah isn't the craziest story I promise. After the flood (which the bible says didn't just come from above but that water also sprung forth from the ground) God stretched across the sky a beautiful rainbow to serve as a reminder that He will never flood the earth again...This life of ours has meaning beyond some random molecules binding just right and then "BAM!" there's a human with a conscience. God knitted each of us together in out mother's womb. He has a plan for each of us and He gives us the choice to accept it or reject it. I promise that a life without Him will never have the signifigance that a life with Him will have. You were never meant to go at this life on your own. Shed your pride and submit to something greater than us all. You might than understand the story of Noah beyond the craziness of it.
For God so loved the world...
Do Jesus freaks* really think this'll convert anyone? Really?
*Not to be confused with Christians.
I remember reading that one source of the flood myth could be the opening of the Bosporous/Dardanelles and subsequent flooding of the Black sea. This would make sense - global cooling would lower ocean levels, the Dardanelles would become a land bridge, and the Black Sea would dry up like the Aral Sea is now
Then there would be crackpots saying, "The flood is coming", and eventually they would be right.
Since this was the range of the "known" world in the West, and these oral traditions could be passed on to what is now the Western World, it is consistent.
There are no flood myths in Chinese history that I have heard of. My wife knows of none either. So its basically confined to an area....close to the Black Sea.
Makes for good '50s movies and bedtime story books...
Yep, it will like the days of Noah
former agnostic wrote:
Yeah, that one wasn't too well explained.
Point was in line with a round revolving earth would dismiss a flat earth because the other stars/planets mentioned would have to rotate with the sun around the earth. Luke knew this of course.
Question, who said what about Moe?
Sorry, just joined this discussion. Can someone fill me in on what's going on? As far as I can tell, there are people who believe that some sort of supreme being resides in an alternate dimension or something.
I hope this will help people as why I believe the Bible.
I can't stand the response saying there is no science to back it up. To use the scientific method to prove any thing three things have to happen. It has to be..
1. Overvable
2. Measreable
3. Repeatable
You don't use the scientific method to prove history! You can't use it prove George washington was president just like you can't use it the prove the Bible.
You use the evidentary method like you would do in a court room.
The Bible is a history book written by eyewitness in the lifetime of other eye witnesses. They use dates, places, numbers and it all has internal consistency. It written in 3 different languages in 3 different continents with 40 authors. These people who don't even know each other are writing about the same God!
The saying there is no proof or science is plain wrong.
Nobody doubts "The Bible" and all the books that are omitted from, "The Bible" are useful history documents.
They are not very consistent w/ other documents, e.g. Jesus' only mention outside, "The Bible" being in Josephus' account of The Jewish Wars 79 ACE (Jesus merits 1 sentence).
Since when does history have much if anything to do w/ science? history is colored by the writer's own beliefs and (mis)conceptions.
Fire worship was common - are we saying that some of the beliefs then were incorrect, and others correct? Based on what? "The Bible"? Have you compared "The Bible" to other Zoroastrian texts? There could also be a lot of validity in Zoroastrianism.
"The bible" is merely 1 of many historic documents from that period, and does not represent the definitive "truth". No document does, esp when we are talking about thousands of years