hahaaaaaaaaaaaa wrote:
ya.... wrote:That "stupid stupid stupid" quote pretty much sums up the article.
I agree. Give it up wellnow
******************************
This thread would be much better if only posters with good reading comprehension replied.
Good grief, why do I bother??????
READ CAREFULLY:
The research suggests that some runners have a LONG HEEL and a LOW VO2max and some runners have a SHORT HEEL and a HIGH VO2max. And some runner ar IN BETWEEN.
This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH TALENT.
Read is slowly a few times. Although that probably won't make much difference since you will almost certainly find a way to twist the words to suit your own pre-judged beliefs.
wellnow wrote:
Let me explain why I think that this idea is exaggerated. It all has to do with muscle tone. I mentioned a few pages ago that I need a very intensive warm-up to run a fast 1500m
Let me explain why I think this post is typical of the garbage you generate on this board:
It has to do with logic. You read a post containing hard facts -- verified facts -- about economy of runners and respond with a personal anecdote about YOUR warmups followed by pure speculation. And then you think you have actually said something real.
This is the reason you are generally regarded as a blithering idiot, Jon. You believe that the conclusions you draw from speculation and anecdotal personal experience somehow counter what has been tested, measured, and verified.
If you don't believe me when I tell you that muscle tone has a huge influence on how well or how badly you race, then you belong to the close minded school of ignorami.
However, if you go away and think about it you might give yourself a chance to reconsider.
wellnow wrote:
Good grief, why do I bother??????
READ CAREFULLY:
The research suggests that some runners have a LONG HEEL and a LOW VO2max and some runners have a SHORT HEEL and a HIGH VO2max. And some runner ar IN BETWEEN.
This has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH TALENT.
Read is slowly a few times. Although that probably won't make much difference since you will almost certainly find a way to twist the words to suit your own pre-judged beliefs.
Oops! Sorry, I guess I had assumed you read your own cited article thoroughly before using it to back your claims of training superiority to all of us "Ignorami."
They were pointing out that their ability to run faster was not based on VO2 max as much as it was based on heal length, hence why some had high V02 and some had low. As "different" as this claim might be, the fact that you misinterpreted it only lowers your credibility. Which by the way was the point of my reply.
I figured it wouldn't hurt your feelings as much if I blatantly stated it instead of just doing it all of the time and pretending I'm not.
wellnow wrote:... muscle tone has a huge influence on how well or how badly you race....I've got no dog in this fight (which I will admit I find entertaining), but I am wondering - just exactly what the heck do you mean by "muscle tone" in this context?
wellnow wrote:
If you don't believe me when I tell you that muscle tone has a huge influence on how well or how badly you race, then you belong to the close minded school of ignorami.
However, if you go away and think about it you might give yourself a chance to reconsider.
What I don't believe is that your mere speculation on such a nebulous term as "muscle tone" or your own inadequacies in warming up provide any substantial counter to what Daniels measured in the lab over decades.
Sir Lance a lot and wellnow are the two most full of shit assholes to ever post on this board, and now they're locked in a deathmatch. HA!
So what's your true identity tough guy?
A. Nonymous wrote:
Hadd didn't say, or even imply, that a marathoner like Wanjiru will beat a miler like El Gerrouj with proper mile training, or vice versa. He said that if you take Wanjiru and train him like a miler, he'll be more economical at mile pace. Likewise, if El Gerrouj trained for a marathon he'd become more economical at marathon pace.
wellnow wrote:
Well obviously Wanjiru isn't going to beat the best milers in the World, nor the best milers in the World run under 2.07 for a marathon. But the similarities in training are significant, so muc so that it's more a case of what they leave out of their training than what they include. So the best trained marathon runners ARE very economical in at mile pace, and the best trained milers ARE very economical at marathon pace.
Thanks for clarifying. But there is some slippery writing in this last post. What is a very economical mile pace for the world's best marathoners? And how does one determine that? Should the marathoner have a mile pace equal to that of the world's best milers? Or should his mile pace be superior to that of his marathoning peers? Or should his marathon pace be a certain percentage of his mile pace?
In any case, has there been a study completed to support your statement? If you're making a scientific claim, in this case about the economy of runners, you should have some evidence to back it up.
Sir Lance-alot wrote:
C'mon tough guy, what are some of the dozen other names you attack people under other than the creative "arrrgh!", and tell me why I am a "full of shit asshole." One example will suffice (and let me guess: it is because I am a democrat who hated Bush, or because I defend east africans as for the most part not being on drugs. Usually those are the two things that tend to get under the skins of racist right wingers.......)
Someone needs to take his anger somewhere else.
Pete wrote:
wellnow wrote:... muscle tone has a huge influence on how well or how badly you race....I've got no dog in this fight (which I will admit I find entertaining), but I am wondering - just exactly what the heck do you mean by "muscle tone" in this context?
*****************************************
High muscle tone gives you more power in your stride/jump/rowing stroke/pedalling stroke etc. Low muscle tone gives less power.
For speed, a higher mucle tone is desirable, for endurance slightly lower muscle tone is desirable, and for relaxation and sleep, a much lower muscle tone is desirable.
As distance runners, we tend to have permanently high muscle tone in our calves, and sometimes in the hamstrings, which can contribute to the risk of injury.
Sir Lance-alot wrote:
Pete wrote:I've got no dog in this fight (which I will admit I find entertaining), but I am wondering - just exactly what the heck do you mean by "muscle tone" in this context?
Yeah, that was going to be my next question: just like his use of "skill", I'd like him to define "muscle tone" very carefully and concisely, so we can know what he means by it.
Medically, it is defined as "The muscle in a steady partially contracted state caused by the successive flow of nerve impulses. For instance, the muscles holding the jaw keep it in position by contracting continuously and only partially." So....running ability is "all about" keeping the muscles in a "partially contracted state" ??
Then..... it would be nice for him to tell us how he believes one one can best train/improve one's muscle tone (after he defines it), since from his previous example/use of the word, it appears he believes one can prepare it both by:
* for marathon performance, slow distance running (his Wanjiru example)
* for 1500 running, a "very intensive" warm-up
These are two fairly disparate examples: one is a training stimulus, one is a pre-race preparation like dynamic stretching. It would seem odd that they both produced similar results.
******************************************
With optimal training, you can vary your muscle tone in a race so that when you need more speed at the end, your muscles don't tighten up too much. We see how sprinters pull hamstrings as they try to hold their peak speed, we can also feel this hamstring tightness at the end of hard speed sessions or races. We can also feel our legs tightening badly at maybe 20 miles in a marathon, causing us to slow down.
Regarding Wanjiru's training, he uses the Japanese method of very long very slow runs to improve concentration, sometimes refered to as "time on feet" Other top marathon runners prefer 24 miles at about 90% of race pace.
Pete wrote:
I've got no dog in this fight (which I will admit I find entertaining), but I am wondering - just exactly what the heck do you mean by "muscle tone" in this context?
wellnow wrote:
High muscle tone gives you more power in your stride/jump/rowing stroke/pedalling stroke etc. Low muscle tone gives less power.
For speed, a higher mucle tone is desirable, for endurance slightly lower muscle tone is desirable, and for relaxation and sleep, a much lower muscle tone is desirable.
As distance runners, we tend to have permanently high muscle tone in our calves, and sometimes in the hamstrings, which can contribute to the risk of injury.
you still haven't said what 'muscle tone' is.
A. Nonymous wrote:
A. Nonymous wrote:Hadd didn't say, or even imply, that a marathoner like Wanjiru will beat a miler like El Gerrouj with proper mile training, or vice versa. He said that if you take Wanjiru and train him like a miler, he'll be more economical at mile pace. Likewise, if El Gerrouj trained for a marathon he'd become more economical at marathon pace.
wellnow wrote:
Well obviously Wanjiru isn't going to beat the best milers in the World, nor the best milers in the World run under 2.07 for a marathon. But the similarities in training are significant, so muc so that it's more a case of what they leave out of their training than what they include. So the best trained marathon runners ARE very economical in at mile pace, and the best trained milers ARE very economical at marathon pace.
Thanks for clarifying. But there is some slippery writing in this last post. What is a very economical mile pace for the world's best marathoners? And how does one determine that? Should the marathoner have a mile pace equal to that of the world's best milers? Or should his mile pace be superior to that of his marathoning peers? Or should his marathon pace be a certain percentage of his mile pace?
In any case, has there been a study completed to support your statement? If you're making a scientific claim, in this case about the economy of runners, you should have some evidence to back it up.
***************************************
Wanjiru would be under 3.50 in a mile, Gebreselassie, despite being labelled a time-trialling Marathon runner, would, if he had decided to run a Mile instead of a Marathon after Beijing, have run a similar time.
How do I know this? Well this old man can run well in both distances during the same year, because I train to improve at every pace. Before my best Marathon I did my best ever speed session and four days before my best 1500 I ran 16 miles at Marathon pace.
However, the question relates to Jack Daniels' tests showing the relative economies of both types of runner. It must surely depend when you measure them, and what training they are doing. As an example, when Steve Cram was at his peak, he would do up to 90 miles per week during a major Championship season, but in 1985 his mileage dropped to 30 mpw and he broke three World Records and won a very fast 800 and 1000m race all in five weeks:
1500 3:29.67 Nice, 16 Jul 85
Mile 3:46.32 Oslo, 27 Jul 85
2000 4:51.39 Budapest, 4 Aug 85
1000 2:12.88 Gateshead 9 Aug 85
800 1:42.88 Zurich, 21 Aug 85
During this time he says that he was always on the verge of injury. His economy at Marathon pace during this time would not have been as good as when he was doing higher mileage.
yes but wrote:
you still haven't said what 'muscle tone' is.
Why dontcha google it?
Oh, just stirring the pot...
"According to wellnow though, his neuromuscular efficiency is way higher now, so that's all that matters. I bet he'd have no problem running a 7:25 3k, or 12:39 5k right now.
Added efficiency + easy reacquisition of a skill he still has = sub 12:30 5, correct wellnow?"
Efficiency + skill = The ability to train these physiological variables we are all obsessed with (Vo2max, LT, etc).
If these variables mean so much then why can I find examples of guys with Vo2max's iin the high 70s and LT's of 85% of that yet are still running barely sub 16? While we can find those in the elite level with those same numbers running much faster? Basically a small % difference in physiological values does not equal a small % of difference in actual performance so these physiological values are all ado about nothing.
Test:
1. Run an all-out 5k on the track.
2. Keep the same training, except do twice weekly training sessions of the following: 100m sprint. 400m walk recovery. Repeat for 10 reps.
3. Sprinting improves your "skill" as a runner. The rest is long so there's little accumulative build up of lactate acid. I'm sure we would all conclude this is NOT a distance running workout.
4. In 4 weeks run another all-out 5k. My guess is that you will have run better during the 2nd 5k.
5. Why? Sprinting is one way to acquire better running skill/effeciency.
Of course we all still need the bread and butter workouts that we all do...but some workouts to address 'skill'...ie: learning how to run...would be greatly beneficial. Along with sprinting we can include weight training and plyos.
Alan
Alan you are the best. Straight forward answer and simple enough to understand and correct according to our ethiopian system. Maybe not correct according to alot of people here. I have been following this thread for a while now today i wrote wow. i am enjoying the battle between wellnow and hadd though. Its awesome. everyone else too keep it up. i am learning alot from all of your views. Right now i would say the score is tie. Wellnow was kind of losing but has made a comeback with the support of sirlancelot. We are going to overtime. Caution, i am not saying Hadd or wellnow are right or wrong I take neither side. I only solidified and confirmed what Alan said is done by Ethiopians alot i mean alot. Lots of hardcore sprints at the end of about everyone. I hate the fact i am leaking all these secrets out but am different. If someone runs faster than you by doing the same training as you so be it. God wants it that way. therefore I dont believe in hiding training like my kenyan friends and the rest of my ethiopians.
"1500 3:29.67 Nice, 16 Jul 85
Mile 3:46.32 Oslo, 27 Jul 85
2000 4:51.39 Budapest, 4 Aug 85
1000 2:12.88 Gateshead 9 Aug 85
800 1:42.88 Zurich, 21 Aug 85
During this time he ( Cram ) says that he was always on the verge of injury. His economy at Marathon pace during this time would not have been as good as when he was doing higher mileage."
Any example of what he did for those 30 miles
wellnow, I'm trying hard to follow your reasoning, but I'll admit I find your way of presenting information to be extremely frustrating.wellnow wrote:
yes but wrote:you still haven't said what 'muscle tone' is.
Why dontcha google it?
Google it? wtf?!?
Just tell us what the hell YOU mean by the term, not the collective consciousness of the internet.
In my mind, "muscle tone" has a very distinct meaning that bears very little resemblence to what you seem to mean, from the context you've used it in. So help a brother out... tell us what YOU mean.