Lydiard Aerobic Phase

Of course. ITS ALL LYDIARD TRAINING. Look at all the similarities. Lydiard through and through.

Mr. Ray

It´s not me that i need to know how to deal with it. That is the Lydiard adept that needs to let me know how he deals with it.

You need to let me know how to build up a training schedule in the Lydiard way - aerobic/marathon block - special hill block - anaerobic block - fast pace block whatever - i count in your Lydiard training skilful to let me know how to deal with this example and still follow the Lydiard periodisation as well as each Lydiard block contain

Example. in October/November - in some cross runs for country compromise and to be select for the European Cross country Champ that take place in late November/early December. The he is engaged to participate in a few road runs or cross country commercial runs because he is a professional runner and he needs to make some money and his agent sign a few run contracts for him. Then in February he needs to participate in some more cross runs in the attempt of the WCCC or in the outdoor champs and in both cases he is select for represent his country in the continental indoor champ of that year and soon he needs to be ready for the WCCChamp that as you know takes place in late Mars/early April. If he is an european runner soon after he needs to be ready for the 10000m european challenge and in 1 months it starts the summer track season.

May be you think that this is an extreme example. Then take a look how many competitions during one season some world top class runners they did. One of two. Or they compete at his low shape and then may be they can follow the Lydiard blocks or they need something different than the Lydiard periodisation.

The competitive schedule isn’t place regularly along the year round ? How do you fit this with Lydiard training periodisation ? They do an aerobic build up period of how many time duration each one ?

Ther´s only one solution for the trainig of the modern competitve challenge. That´s to build blocks that are a mesocycle and that in each mesocycle you have aerobic mileage volume as well as some fast pace intensity. Basically that´s what Renato says. But this is not Lydiard training.

open your eyes! wrote:

HRE -

Look, HIGH MILEAGE, HILL REPEATS, SHORT TRACK REPEATS, LONG TRACK REPEATS, FARTLKES, LONG RUNS, EASY RUNS, DOUBLE RUNS 2X A DAY, TEMPO RUNS all existed before Lydiard. Those training elements were not created by Lydiard.

The error in thinking here is that Lydiard did not invent anything, he discovered. You know like an explorer - they find something that was already there. The principles that Lydiard discovered have been discovered by plenty of other people in many fields of endeavour. Lydiard just happened to be the one that did in in distance running. Bruce Lee did it in the martial arts. In fact there have been a series of people over the ages who synthesized the martial arts. Musashi did this in the 16th century, Morihei Ueshiba did this to Japanese martial arts in the early 20th century and Bruce himself did this for all martial arts in the late 20th century. Cerutty did this also in a subtly different way for middle distance running. They just take what is already there and simplify. In the end a new way has evolved.

I see. What Baumman did on that aerobic build up period that´s typical Lydaird training. Thanks for the data.

In November he did 8X1000m track intervals or 3x3,9km (12:32-12:26-12:06) rec.2’ trail tempo tranining in the forest. This was done during his fall/winter build up aerobic period to prepare the summer track season. I was wrong about Baumann !

Please sign for the Lydiard Foundation of you didn´t yet. You are a good Lydaird adept ! Plenty of understand !

Although Lydiard didn\\\'t have his athletes do interval work during their aerobic phase he was ok with fartlek, which is a form of interval work, as long as it was \\\"aerobic fartlek.\\\" Dick Quax, who was coached by John Davies along Lydiard lines would sometimes do 20x400 in 70 or so. He could run those 400s in 60 or so if he pushed himself so the 70 second 400s were not an anaerobic session. I once did a session of 1000s, at peak form, that was comparable to Baumann\\\'s session and I wasn\\\'t breathing terribly hard. Given that Baumann\\\'s best 5,000 is over two and a half minutes faster than my own I can only think that he wasn\\\'t doing anaerobic work in that session.

Again, the principle during the base building runs is to avoid geting out of breath regardless of whether you\\\'re doing fartlek, intervals, or steady runs. In Baumann\\\'s case, I can see similarities with the stuff Ernst van Aaken proposed. But there are lots of similarities between van Aaken and Lydiard and for all I know, Baumann\\\'s wife might have worked the whole thing out for herself.

This does actually relate to the original and perhaps long forgotten question in the original post. Yes, you can do tempo runs during the base phase just as you can do intervals or fartlek, aslong as you don\\\'t get out of breath.

Arthur\\\'s hesitancy about doing other than steady runs was most likely due to his suspicion that mostrunners are not truly able to run intervals without turning the session into an anerobic one.

if any of these guys aren't skuj then i am very sorry as i actually like skuj, i think he is like a breath of fresh air. when i first discovered his posts i laughed often and i had a pang of disappointment when i heard he was banned. Staight after that i had anger at censorship but now i see he is actually deliberatley destructive sometimes. So am i though and i'm trying to let it go. Self destructiveness is tricky.

In my defense i do see other ways. Here is a main difference for you.

I follow a three weekly cycle throughout the year. The first two weeks are similar and the third week is much lighter. The program is designed to leave you dead by the end of week 2 and fresh again by the end of week 3. So in this sense it differs from Lydiard style. An example of how this will fit is during the hill phase. Instead of 4 weeks it will be done over 6.

2 weeks hard - ie 3 hard hill circuits a week

1 week easier - ie 1 hard hill circuit, one easy and one trial based hill thing

2 weeks hard - as above

1 one easier -as above

I use this because it was what i followed from 18 to 29 every day and all year round. I know the subtleties of it and the hidden benefits and moreso how to bring these out. I may change in the future but for now it is working really well. The upside is they can work harder in those two weeks than on a steady program. The upside of the easier week is that they get to feel totally natural again. Naturalism isn\'t lost so easily.

I'm not a Lydiardite and probably won't ever be one, i'm just not that into being a part of a group or the labelling thing. What i am is a Lydiard devotee. I honour him as being above me and through that i am very open to what he is saying. In this sense i am trying to be a disciple to a dead master. Hence i am searching through the Lydiard world for understanding just as i am simultaneously searching through the Cerutty world and the MD world in general for understanding.

I'm now convinced that most coaches are getting lost in the details and minutae of contemporary training. They are losing sight of the fundamentals in favour of the fine details. That's actually an example of your idiom on the forest and the trees.

What are the Fundamentals?

1. Posture (the physical structure)

2. Rhythm (how the physical structure is maintained)

3. Technique (how the physical structure moves)

4 .Fitness (how effective the physical structure is at achieving its goal - strength, speed, power, endurance, mobility

Since most coaches are only looking into stage 4 with some also partially looking into stage 3, i see them as seriously limited. For one they won't be able to change posture from a less effective to a more effective position. For two they won't be able to alter an athlete's rhythm to a more effective one. For three, they either won't or will have a limited understanding and therefore ability, to adjust technique, without affecting either rhythm or posture in an adverse way. This they are left with adjusting stage four and since that's all they have that's where all the athletes end up spending their time.

Coaches of the genetically gifted are the lucky ones. Their genetic gifts are not really limited to the fitness category. They have superior postures in the main as well as a superior sense of rhythm. They also have excellent technical mechanics. Probably most importantly they have the mind that makes all this work out. After this comes the fitness category. Plenty of people who cannot run fast measure extremely highly on a VO2max test. Heaps of people have a higher VO2max than Derek Clayton at 69. But they didn't run a marathon like he did. The answer is in the first 3 categories. Natural talent is more in the first three than the fourth. It is difficult to learn how to observe and then train this at first but well worth the effort. Posture is the starting point. There are places you can look. You will need to find that rare practitioner who really gets it though. Aikido, Yoga, meditation practices, pilates (not windsor :)), Alexander technique, Feldenkrais, any Zen art like Kudo (archery), Zazen (seated meditation), even tea ceremony and flower arranging are rooted in posture.

Since i'm aware of the relative importance of these 4 fundamentals it may show that i'm not so interested in the myriad of examples of sessions and special little types of sessions to stimulate this or that special fitness category. It becomes apparent when one has isolated the fundamentals clearly.

Luckily, I don't have to deal with it either -- I'm happy enough with the "classic" periodization, taking summer and winter breaks, and you won't see me or my athletes in Golden League, or WCCC or ECCC or anywhere but local road races and trails.I guess it has something to do with getting up to top-form and then combining Lydiard's "Race weeks" and "Non-race weeks", but I won't attempt to explain in more detail. Sometimes I don't have all the answers.Someone smarter than me will have to say how it compares to mesocycles.

not a fanatic wrote:

I see. What Baumman did on that aerobic build up period that´s typical Lydaird training. Thanks for the data.

In November he did 8X1000m track intervals or 3x3,9km (12:32-12:26-12:06) rec.2’ trail tempo training in the forest. This was done during his fall/winter build up aerobic period to prepare the summer track season. I was wrong about Baumann !

Please sign for the Lydiard Foundation of you didn´t yet. You are a good Lydaird adept ! Plenty of understand !

I wasn;t sure if you were actually being sarcastic until the final paragraph. So Baumann does a few things faster. He must like to keep the feel of that. Also if it is his second phase for the season then i would like to see his first. I can onlny imagine it would have looked more like his 2008 version from October. Come on man.

Anyways an analysis:

Baumann 2002

4.11-10.11

Mon 48’ easy 12km

Tue am: 40’ jog + circuit for strength endurance (30’,)pm: 66’ easy-mod 17km (last 4km 3:30)

Wed am:42’ easy 10km, pm: 20’ w.u.Track: 8x1000m (3:05-3:00) rec.1:30 + 20’ w.d.

Thur 1hr 23min. easy 21km

Fri am: 1:10 min easy 16km, pm: 45’ 10km

Sat am: 3x3,9km (12:32-12:26-12:06) rec.2’ (hilly trail in the forest), pm:45’ jog

Sun 1hr 45min easy-mod 28km last 45’ (3:30)

mon : 4min/km

tues: am:? maybe 4:30/km+, pm: 3:53/km

wed: am: 4:12/km, pm: 3min/km

thurs: 3:57/km

fri: am: 4:22/km pm: 4:30/km

sat: am: 4:11 + 4:09 + 4:02/km, pm:? 4:30/km+

sun: 60mins@4min/km + 45mins@3:30/km

Total km for week is about 190kms or 105 miles.

Sure there are differences, nothing is ever exactly the same on the surface. Like every one of us has different personalities, different finger prints yet on one level we are all human beings, and identically the same on that level.

If the emphasis is on aerobic over other factors then there is a similarity. If the volume is around 100miles a week there is a similarity. If the average paces run match up then there is a similarity. If one very loong run a week is done then there is a similarity.

If Baumann wishes to explore a much faster pace each week than his normal paces then there is also a similarity. The difference here is that Lydiard explores that aspect (faster paces) through strides and those short 200m sessions i've sometimes seen. If Baumann chooses to add a fitness aspect to this faster pace then this is something Lydiard i believe disagrees with during preparation. I also disagree with it. Isolate first then combine.

I asked my coach this 'Efim. What is the deal with the 800m.' 'Peter, first you develop speed and you develop endurance and then you combine.'

THEN you combine AFTER they have been developed.

I mean ask any chef, Hey chef what happens if i combine these two ingredients before they have been properly prepared. (wish i had an example).

What about a builder. Hey builder what is the most important aspect of building a house. The foundations he says.

How about those Egyptians. To get as high as possible we have to build the base of our building (pyramid) as wide as we can, the wider we go the higher we can get)

How about that wave about to crash. See the swell rise up from underneath and then suddenly peak before it tips. We miss the mass of water underneath supporting and driving that wave.

Or the iceberg. we see what 1/7th or 1/8th of it. We see the tip which is supported underneath the water by the rest of its invisible mass.

Invisible like our subconscious which is likened to the iceberg, a small part observable and the rest hidden away. The hidden part serves to support the obvious part.

The information is all around if you want to find the similarities instead of the differences.

The Lydiard foundation. Both words are essential really :)

To suggest Lydiard methods are the only way is to be of the cult. You accuse Skuj of being too regimented and inflexible, yet you are of the Lydiard cult yourself. Can we not agree to disagree? Just because the one coaches penguins does not mean he cannot know of Lydiard and others too. Though I admit that is most likely. Still we should have the open mind and accept that there may be other ways than the Lydiard cult. Do not drink the kool aid, my friend.

sim wrote:

if any of these guys aren't skuj then i am very sorry as i actually like skuj, i think he is like a breath of fresh air. when i first discovered his posts i laughed often and i had a pang of disappointment when i heard he was banned. Staight after that i had anger at censorship but now i see he is actually deliberatley destructive sometimes. So am i though and i'm trying to let it go. Self destructiveness is tricky.

I'm now aware of more background information and my conclusion is this.

Skuj is a free thinker and likes to challenge. I feel i am the same way. I am also aware now that certain other posters are definitely not Skuj. I wish they would not hide themselves as surely some of them could be really constructive in exploring this subject. I understand there is at least one really good thinker amongst them.

HRE wrote:

as long as you don't get out of breath.

this is what i have been waiting for ...................

Great post HRE!

In Baumann's case, I can see similarities with the stuff Ernst van Aaken proposed. But there are lots of similarities between van Aaken and Lydiard and for all I know, Baumann's wife might have worked the whole thing out for herself.

Similarities are good :). Has she got anything written down from her?

Arthur's hesitancy about doing other than steady runs was most likely due to his suspicion that mostrunners are not truly able to run intervals without turning the session into an anerobic one.

It is one of the hardest things to get the athletes to actually slow down and not push it every session. It's tolerable with the teenagers to a degree after all, they are teenagers. But after adulthood they really have to get this side of themselves under control or their career will be shortened (ie burnout in some form or another)

lQ100 wrote:

To suggest Lydiard methods are the only way is to be of the cult. You accuse Skuj of being too regimented and inflexible, yet you are of the Lydiard cult yourself. Can we not agree to disagree? Just because the one coaches penguins does not mean he cannot know of Lydiard and others too. Though I admit that is most likely. Still we should have the open mind and accept that there may be other ways than the Lydiard cult. Do not drink the kool aid, my friend.

Hi is that directed towards me :)

I'm immune to kool aid so please don't worry yourself. I'm interested in the principles that lie underneath no matter where they appear. Praise be to the net for the chance for such comparison.

I write here for all to read. Though your posts are most interesting and I have enjoyment reading them. It makes sense that you do not think any longer about the trolls and focus your attention on training systems and philosophies. We all can learn much from each other, even Skuj perhaps? Maybe not. But the knowledge is there for those with open minds and lack of conceit. I like to think many of us are that way. The others will unfortunately dwell in mediocrity because of their excessive appreciation of themselves which lacks foundation.

lQ100 wrote:

I write here for all to read. Though your posts are most interesting and I have enjoyment reading them. It makes sense that you do not think any longer about the trolls and focus your attention on training systems and philosophies. We all can learn much from each other, even Skuj perhaps? Maybe not. But the knowledge is there for those with open minds and lack of conceit. I like to think many of us are that way. The others will unfortunately dwell in mediocrity because of their excessive appreciation of themselves which lacks foundation.

man instead of always playing the psychoanalyst how about playing the training theory analyst. I'm confident in putting my thoughts out there, critique those damnit it instead of some psuedo-psycho-anlysis-critique.

Do you not see the connection between the two? To think of training theory without the psychological aspect is to miss a most important component of a successful philosophy. Yes the body is important as the vessel that drives us to run well but the mind and emotions play an important role. Surely you agree with this statement? How can one separate the two? I cannot and I'm sure you also.

During one of the last meetings I had with Arthur he talked about the area I live in here n NZ (Rotorua) and how we have this phenomenal 'Training" facility on our back doorstep.

We have miles and miles of Forest roads and tracks all of which consist of Crushed Pumice (Volcanic rock).

The positive effect of this on legs means mileges can be higher than if you run on more "artificial" surfaces.

Arthur said what he was doing when any athletes /Coaches etc contacted him about coming to NZ to train he always said 'Go to Rotorua'.

The Germans were the first to do this on a regular basis and around 1991-92. Dieter Baumann was one of those athletes who did that (2 to 3 months)

Through to the mid 90's we saw various German athletes in town who were there to "Train".

Since then the volume of athletes has dropped off somewhat and Mountain Biking has taken a huge front seat but everyday there are athletes out there.

Just last year I helped out one of the current top Finnish runners who had been given the same message. I saw his training schedule and asked him about some aspects (not necassarily "Lydiard") but Arthur's name inevitably came into the situation and was one reason this guy came to town.

These guys may not be "Lydiardites" but they listened to what the old man suggested !!!

lQ100 wrote:

Do you not see the connection between the two? To think of training theory without the psychological aspect is to miss a most important component of a successful philosophy. Yes the body is important as the vessel that drives us to run well but the mind and emotions play an important role. Surely you agree with this statement? How can one separate the two? I cannot and I'm sure you also.

Yes! I totally agree. I'm sorry i was not aware this was what you were referring to. I think the last sentence or two confused me.

I guess the highest psychological state is an inspired one. The trick is how the coach as a psychologist can get the athlete to achieve that state. From there the physical training isn't a problem anymore and great things can be achieved.

I see Arthur as being one who could convince athletes to become inspired. I've found many stories about Cerutty in the same way. And this was when money was definitely not a lure.

I'm sure many have read this many times but for others. A selection from the Herb Elliot interview on Cerutty

When Herb first came across Percy

"he turned up one day from the Eastern States, (one of the Wise Men from the East, we used to call them then) to the school, and I remember he had this magnificent body for a 60-year-old man; he had a pair of white shorts on, bare feet and no top on, just the shorts. And he talked to us about flying."

At dinner later that same day

"we had a conversation with Percy that probably lasted two or three hours. And that was probably the start, that probably sowed the seed that ultimately sort of started to strike towards the surface to think about devoting a bit of my life to becoming a good athlete. It was a very, very inspiring, thought-provoking meeting."

When Herb came to Melbourne for the 56 Olympics the next year

"My father decided to come across and have a look at the Olympics, for which I am eternally grateful. And the way in which Vladimir Kuts, ... and his arch opponent was Gordon Pirie ... and this guy just absolutely ground Pirie into the dirt. I've never seen anything quite so remorseless, or quite so unstoppable as that. And it inspired me, all the nasty bits, and I thought 'Oh, I wouldn't mind doing that to somebody'

And what appealed to Herb about Percy

"He just had the ability to transfix you with words, and lift you 20 feet into the air. I mean he had a wonderful eloquence, an inspiring eloquence about him"

And about training in Portsea

"Portsea, with the magnificent cliffs, the reefs, the pounding surf, the beach, the tracks through the tea -tree, was just a wonderful environment to run in. And it was spiritually uplifting. So when you got down there you just sniffed in the salt air and you felt your chest expand and you could feel your muscles in your legs tingle. It just made you want to run."

and again on Percy

"he was more a person who spoke at the philosophical level and got you inspired and enthusiastic and then just let you go."

and from Percy himself

"Percy Cerutty: Fail, it's not in my dictionary. I've got a good dictionary up there and the words 'fail' and 'failure' have been ruled out for years. I don't know what people are talking about who use that word. All I do know is temporary non-success, even if I've got to wait another 20 years for what I'm after, and I try to put that into people, no matter what their object in life."

thanks IQ100

Baumann's wife has an exercise physiology degree. Somewhere, somewhere really obscure and forgotten, I did read something that she wrote about his training, but I don't recall much more.

I think one of the ongoing problems with interval work is that in so many high school teams everyone gets the same session, done together. Inevitably it becomes a race. My son and I have had a couple coversations where he'll proudly tell me about how one of the other guys from his team was "challenging" him at the day's interval session but that he held the guy off. He may have learned that it's not supposed to work that way. Maybe he just learned not to talk with me about it.

But once you've had that introduction to interval work it is very hard not to hammer it whenever there is a specified diatance and a clock going.

Not the same IQ100 I used to know. Capital i vs little L? :)I know who that is.....sigh....

lQ100 wrote:

I write here for all to read. Though your posts are most interesting and I have enjoyment reading them. It makes sense that you do not think any longer about the trolls and focus your attention on training systems and philosophies. We all can learn much from each other, even Skuj perhaps? Maybe not. But the knowledge is there for those with open minds and lack of conceit. I like to think many of us are that way. The others will unfortunately dwell in mediocrity because of their excessive appreciation of themselves which lacks foundation.