jtupper wrote:
I have a great photo (was cover of a science magazine) of us testing Jim down a dirt rode in Flagstaff. Rich Clarkson took that one
I have a book published by RW back around 1970 with a front cover of Jim Ryun that is probably the very same photo.
Book is called "Guide to Distance Running" or something like that and was a collection of RW articles, many previously published.
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Living in the past wrote:
To think that Ryun was as physically mature at 19 as he would have been at 26 is possible, I guess. But if that were the case, he would be a statistical outlier. Most likely, he would have been stronger at 26 than at 19.
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I find this quote particularly funny. As if a 17 year old that could run a faster mile than anyone in history were not a statistical outlier in the first place.
let's just stop this 'Ryun burned out early and/or never reached his potential talk', Living in the Past; and just marvel and enjoy what he did accomplish.
I actually dropped the suject of Ryun two days ago, but some people can't let the subject lie. So here we go again.
Trogdor, of course Ryun was an outlier based on his talent. Any true fan of Ryun has to lament the fact that we'll never know how talented he really was, because he was overtrained at such a young age.
Had he not been overtrained, Ryun would have been the first man to break 3:50. Some say he wasn't over the hill at 25, but at the age of 19 Ryun made 3:51 look easy. At 25, he no longer did.
Living in the past wrote:
Had he not been overtrained, Ryun would have been the first man to break 3:50. Some say he wasn't over the hill at 25, but at the age of 19 Ryun made 3:51 look easy. At 25, he no longer did.
Or he would have trained more "sensibly" and run 3:55. We'll never know. What we do know is that his training produced a World Record.
Living in the past wrote:
Any true fan of Ryun has to lament the fact that we'll never know how talented he really was, because he was overtrained at such a young age.
I supposed you know this, personally, because you ran 3:51 at age 19 and... what did you run at age 25???
Living in the past wrote:
Had he not been overtrained, Ryun would have been the first man to break 3:50.
If he would've had multiple rabbits like El G, he would've done it anyways. Not to mention the quality of tracks back then.
Why do I have to repeat the obvious for you? Most people on this thread know that Timmons himself admitted that he overtrained Ryun. What more authority do you need?
As for the 3:51 at 19, Ryun ran the last two laps by himself and never appeared to struggle. The first half was run in close to two minutes. So Ryun obviously could have run faster than 3:51 if the early pace had been faster. And as for the 3:51 at the age of 20, Ryun himself said that it felt easy.
Good point. In 1972, Ryun had much better track surfaces than in 1966 and 1967.
No no no, I was only separating the "wheat from the tares."
thanks for the answer. the physiology aspect of training/racing has always fascinated me. i have always wondered, given the old greek myth of lifting a calf everyday from the time he is born until he is a bull, if a program could be set up over any amount of time utilizing a similar callousing effect to run a sub 4 mile. i.e. start with running 16 x 100 at 15 with whatever rest you needed. then, gradually cutting the rest until the eventual goal is complete. does that even souind feasible?
ha! snacker du svenska?! hansyn med tre, jag forsta. tacksa, och har dag bra...
well done Oletimer. It harkens back to the quote, "better to keep one's mouth closed and be thought a fool than to open it and remove all doubt"
All of the runners who set world records after Ryun were older than 19. Let's look at their ages when they first set their records. The point is that you can train sensibly and peak out later than 19 or 20. (For most of these guys, their ultimate personal bests came later than their ages listed below):
Filbert Bayi 23
John Walker 23
Sebastian Coe 22
Steve Ovett 24
Steve Cram 24
Nourredine Morceli 23
Hicham el Gerouj 24
I gotta tell you, in the midst of a political world, this message board is a lot of fun.
Just called dad for kicks-asked him about his 3:52 mile in Toronto. His first comment was, "Oh, that was the worst track in the world. It was the hardest, asphalt track you've ever seen. And after the half, there was no one around to help on that one. I think I was easily 10 seconds ahead of 2nd place."
I asked him about 1972, pre-Olympics-"Best physical and mental shape I was ever in. I ran some ridiculous workouts. Started one with 2x800 in 1:50 then some very fast 4s and 3s. I also ran one where we started a series of 12x400 at 56 and ran cutdowns-I'm pretty sure the last one was right at or just under 50. Timmie wanted me ready for any scenario in the final."
All I can say is this. One, the 1972 tracks (sans the Olympic Games) were nowhere near the Mondo tracks of today. Two, I really need to find dad's 1972 journal. Three, Ken Popejoy told me once as we sat in the stands at Iffley Road Stadium in 1994, "If your dad had had a rabbit or rabbits to take him through 3/4s in 2:50 or faster, there is no doubt in my mind he would have been well under 3:50 in the 1960s. The problem was none of us could run a fast enough 3/4s to get him there."
Living in the past wrote:
Why do I have to repeat the obvious for you? Most people on this thread know that Timmons himself admitted that he overtrained Ryun. What more authority do you need?
I believe that Timmons would agree to anything just to get you to shut up and stop whining.
Living in the past wrote:
All of the runners who set world records after Ryun were older than 19.
Wow but all of them were younger than 25.
Therefore all of them had lousy coaches - if only you'd been there to show them the right way - stfuyi!
Anyone interested in buying a copy of Jim Ryun, America's Greatest Miler can email me at
I can provide a dvd copy at a very reasonable cost.
Rink
Drew, thanks again for setting out the facts. I've learned a lot from you in this discussion. To some of you other guys, just chill out. It's only fun and games.
Hey Whiner. Don't take this thing so seriously. You're so agitated that you've apparently lost your ability to reason.
I can vouch for Rink. I got the DVD, very reasonable & great footage.
You would be buying it from the guy who actually produced the documentary.
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