I'd like also to ask you doing a small exercise. This small exercise consists in imagining that, just as Ovett, Coe didn't have his two time trial attempts at the 800m. Let's imagine Juantorena had been a 800m specialist from his teenage years and mastered the event to an unprecedented 1:41 race in Montreal demotivating Coe from even trying it.
Now consider this - Coe would have been a 1:43.07 800m runner, or 1 second faster than Ovett. This is Coe's fastest ever 800m race outside his two set-up races that never existed.
Now I am here saying: there is no way Coe would have run faster at the 800m. Listen, do you know how many times he ran within 1:43 in his career? 7! This is a clear indication that speed was his peak for the distance. Let's remember he raced it very often in such different scenarios, tracks and seasons, and yet for multiple times 1:43 was the best he could run. If he could have run much faster than that, he would have. By the way, the 1:43.07 race was a race he came 2nd -- when confronted to a 1:42.54, he lost. His 3rd fastest time ever was also a race he lost - the LA final, when he was confronted to a 1:43 flat that he couldn't match. How come he could have run faster than what he did? Ok, maybe I will concede that a high 1:42 in an optimal time trial race was possible, but there is just no way a 1:41 was possible for him, there is no evidence.
It seems so from this discussion that the above paragraph would be perfectly reasonable for you to be defending it -- I'd looking at evidence from his races just as I am doing it with Ovett -- the sub 50s equivalent last lap in Moscow despite poor tactics; the 24.7 last 200m at the 86 European (a 1:44.5 win!), his remarkable 1,000m WR, or even his indoor WR breaking 1:45 in the process and yes, I like to think I could be making the case that Coe could have run ~1:41.5 or so -- as we know in reality he did run his 1:41.7 and many would agree he had the potential to run slightly faster still.
... imagining that... Coe didn't have his two time trial attempts at the 800m.
Now consider this - Coe would have been a 1:43.07 800m runner, or 1 second faster than Ovett...
Even though this is obviously hypothetical, it isn't a bad point at all.
Because it's not unreasonable that a) a better 800m runner (and Coe was better over 800 than Ovett, one really bad race in Moscow doesn't change that) and b) a guy whose "superpower" was fearless front running, would have these two races extra over the distance than a guy who wasn't as good as the 800 as he was the 1500, and wasn't the type of guy to set up a race like Firenze and go try and run sub 1.42.0
Again, it speaks to the difference in the era in terms of depth and volume of really fast races. We are "spoilt" (I guess? Right?) in todays era where every top class 800m is rarely run slower than 1.45.0.
Here is a crazy stat - because one good thing about the WA website and it's top-lists is that you can filter season bests by years and also do multiple years. From 1/1/1978 to 1/1/1983 - a 5 year window, there were only 4 races on the planet under 1.44.0 and only 28 under 1.45.0! With respect to those sub 1.44's, Coe owns 3 of them - the other one is Olaf Beyer. Point being, if you weren't a guy in that era who was prepared to go after a time over 800m on your own (and it was only really Coe who was), your chances of running something fast were very slim. This is course doesn't mean it wasn't within your potential, it was just the way it was.
Coe wasn’t at his peak in the loasws you listed, Cruz was indeed at his peak, and then could never again really approach that form and speed after he himself was injured. So… can’t totally buy your thesis. And when faced with an opponent in superb form in one of his peak years - Steve Cram - Cruz lost when Cram ran 1:42. And it would nonsense to consider Cram “as good” or better than Cruz overall at 800m. Cruz was a beast. An underrated beast.
Coe wasn’t at his peak in the races you listed, Cruz was indeed at his peak, and then could never again really approach that form and speed after he himself was injured. So… can’t totally buy your thesis. And when faced with an opponent in superb form in one of his peak years - Steve Cram - Cruz lost when Cram ran 1:42. And it would nonsense to consider Cram “as good” or better than Cruz overall at 800m. Cruz was a beast. An underrated beast.
No he isn't. That's your typical gaslighting. Typical, when you have zero arguments.
To such as you any rejection of your views or those you approve of is "gaslighting". You don't know what the term means. I also clearly have more than "zero arguments" as some of you have spent pages disputing them.
If I am wrong can you point to the occasion where Ovett ran 1:42, since you argue conjecture about what might have been possible as though it is fact?
Whenever you argue that Snell could run 1:42, please point to the occasion where he did.
I don't argue Snell could run 1:42, I point out that Lydiard estimated this based on what Snell's 1:44 on grass would be worth in the same race run on modern tracks with modern shoes. It wasn't a claim based on Snell trying harder - as is argued here about Ovett - but was the expertly estimated difference modern technology would have made if available to Snell in 1962. Are you saying tracks and shoes haven't significantly improved since then (which isn't the argument that relates to what Ovett could have done)?
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You avoid the inconvenient fact, as I pointed out above, that Salvatore's estimation of what Ovett might have been capable of was pretty much the same as mine - but not the same as you are claiming. Does he not understand "mathematics"?
No it wasn't, dumbo. He said clearly 1:42.
Actually he didn't. This is what he said:-
".. most responses I am seeing, including my own, believe his ceiling was something in the high 1.42/low 1.43 range".
When you still "see" Ovett losing 14/100 in the last few steps of the '78 EC final, you are just biased. From the video of the race, it might be possible that he didn't put his max effort on the last 1 or 2 steps - that's 1/100, at most 2/100. He lost to Beyer by 25/100, because he couldn't hold his pace.
You think a 1.0 second slower 1st lap would give him a 1.6 second faster 2nd lap - based on which formula?
Regarding the extra meters covered, Marco Arop has run something like 51.2/49.4 for 1:40.6 in the Paris final. What do you think he could have run with a 50.5 1st lap?
How do you compare Ovett's 54.9/50.5 (for sure in weaker shoes) to that? Or to Kipketer's 48.2/53.0 in Zürich '97?
That you say Ovett in '79 wasn't as great as in the other years during his prime is based on exactly one thing: it helps your argumentation. Do you know all of Ovett's race distributions during this year? He raced great over 1500m/Mile (his by far best event) during the full season. When confronted with a very good 800m time, he lost. As always during his career. I can give you a very simple explanation for this: he just wasn't a great 800m time trialist like Coe, Cruz, Cram or so many others who came later. He could use his great finishing capabilities for his benefit (EC '78 (ignore Beyer) or OG '80).
You can see him as a potential 1:42.8 or maybe 1:41.0 runner if you like. I'm unbiased and see him at slightly under 1:44.0 in Prague and maybe at 1:43.5 in Moscow.
Despite his success, he wasn't an 800m runner. What do you think, why did he race the distance so rarely?
In the 78 race, he didn't put his max effort not for 1 or 2 steps as you claim, but rather for 7 or 8 steps as you can clearly see from the video. At 1:38 - 1:41 in the race clock you can see Ovett fighting hard as Beyer passes him. By 1:41.5 the race is over and he starts slowing down - there are 6-8 steps to the finish depending on how you count for the last 2-2.5 seconds of the race.
As for Arop, interesting that you mention as I have been following him recently - he certainly seems to be in WR shape for a while now and some even say 1:39 is possible. There's a recent thread here with a workout he posted a few weeks ago that many people claimed a 1:39 was possible. I am not sure I see your point re the Paris race though - 51.2 and 49.4 counting the extra meters (i haven't done this estimation myself but will trust you); with a 50.5 first lap instead he wouldn't have closed that fast but maybe a little bit faster as a final time. Judging from his recent training, I personally think he is at 1:40 low shape.
Kipketer is one of my favorite runners ever. I am of the opinion that he was very close to sub 1:40 shape at this day in Zurich. It is not only the 400m split, he's also gone ~23.0 for the first 200m which is suicidal. The fact he still ran 1:41.24 - a then World Record - is remarkable. I don't think I've ver seen a runner in that kind of shape for the 800m. Maybe Arop is in similar shape now but then with the advantage of the super shoes so I'd still take Kipketer that day in Zurich. Look at what happened with Amos in Zurich with a similar first lap (and 23.5 200m).
That you say Ovett in '79 wasn't as great as in the other years during his prime is based on exactly one thing: it helps your argumentation.
This is false and I posted my arguments based on facts and evidence. It wasn't as great because there's nothing spectacular from this season, contrary to 77-78, 80 and 81 (the year Ovett himself thought he was at his best). I posted you the evidence in my previous races, with stats and splits, including an example from the 79 season. Don't say that my opinion is based on "it helps your argumentation" when I actually posted evidence for it. It is not fair or honest.
he just wasn't a great 800m time trialist like Coe, Cruz, Cram or so many others who came later.
This is a false inference. You are inferring he wasn't good at 800m time trialing because he never tried. You cannot reach this conclusion. One thing that is true and there's evidence - including from Ovett himself - is that he didn't enjoy time trials as much of other runners did. This is a matter of mentality, personality. Some runners enjoy more than others. I've given other examples for this, one that is very clear is Mo Farah who never really cared about time trial races despite having the potential to get much closer to the then 3,000m/5000m WRs (some will actually argued he had decent chances of getting those records).
He could use his great finishing capabilities for his benefit (EC '78 (ignore Beyer)
Not true as this race is not an example of "his great finishing capabilities".
You can see him as a potential 1:42.8 or maybe 1:41.0 runner if you like. I'm unbiased and see him at slightly under 1:44.0 in Prague and maybe at 1:43.5 in Moscow.
You think I am biased but I have no particular preference for Ovett and if there's any runner I'd be biased about would be Cruz since I am Brazilian. It is simply a matter of evidence.
Slightly under 1:44.0 in Prague means what? 1:43.8?
So Ovett splits in that race were ~49.8 and ~54.3.
Are you defending the point that with a full second slower in his first lap, he would have finished only .2 or .3 faster ? I don't think so.
Again my case is based on evidence - show me a runner capable of a 24.4 last 200m in a 3:35 race (pre-super shoes); or capable of a 11.8 100m segment (not even Coe as he had 12.1 for final 100m split at his race in Moscow); or capable of a 50.5 last lap in an Olympic final with a ~25.0 last 200m (other than Coe of course). Show me other runner with 21.7 200m speed and 13:20 5,000m strength.
Show me evidence please.
Despite his success, he wasn't an 800m runner. What do you think, why did he race the distance so rarely?
He was a 800m runner and a 1,500m/Mile runner who matured quite early -- you can clearly see that as he was only 1 year older than Coe !! of course his individual biology played a role. Note how quickly he faded after his accident in 82, Coe was ~32/33 and ranked 2nd in the World at the 800m as well as a Silver Medal at 89' World Cup. Very different metabolism and development from Ovett.
81 was the last season of his "peak" and yet he was only 25/26. Coe's 1:42.3 is from 79 -- I mean, you're not really into time trials, and now the WR becomes significantly harder, perhaps even unattainable, why bothering...? I don't know. Only Ovett could answer this question.
We are truly in the realm of angels dancing on the heads of pins here.
When you still "see" Ovett not giving his full effort on the last 8 steps in the '78 EC final (and therefore losing over a meter) you are extremely biased and there is no chance to have a serious discussion about the subject with you and I stop here responding.
and if there's any runner I'd be biased about would be Cruz since I am Brazilian. It is simply a matter of evidence.
SAI QUE É SUA, TAFFAREL!!!
You're Brazilian - that's cool, I knew a number of Brazilian 800m guys back in the day. I raced a few times against Osmar Dos Santos and also Pecanha. I was the US trials back in 21 and next thing I see this tall, gangly figure with huge shoulders sitting down just in front of me - Jose Luis Barboza! (or Zequinha as you probably call him).
Cruz was one of my favorite guys growing up. One of his coolest workouts was his combined circuit training/tempo running workout.
Basically it was 3 sets of 3 different excercises. In one set you would do something like 60 seconds of high knees, then run 100m at a solid pace (maybe 15 seconds), then do another similar activity but slightly more challenging for say 30 seconds. Run the 100m again and then do a final activity for a set number (20 burpees) and then another 100m. You then take a 2min rest and do this another two times. At the end of three sets you take a rest and then run 800-1000m at tempo. Do the whole thing 2-3 times. Just an awesome combo workout of strength+threshold work. I emulated this workout for a number of season doing it barefoot on grass, doing 2 sets. Got the 800's down to 2.04, 2.01 for the best one I ever did. Cruz used to do it on a larger loop in Eugene somewhere.
I listened to him talk about his career/training philosophy back in the early 2000's which is where I got the info about his circuit sessions. He also ran almost all his mileage at good tempo, said he "wouldn't get out of bed to run slower than 6min/mile" which was kind of fashion in that era for a lot of the top MD guys (Sydney Maree was the same - just ran everything fast). Maybe that helped him reach such an incredibly high level relatively quickly - on the same level might not have helped with respect to his body in the long term.
But yeah, Brazil is definitely a great 800m nation - has as much heritage and pedigree as anyone over the distance.
Coe wasn’t at his peak in the races you listed, Cruz was indeed at his peak, and then could never again really approach that form and speed after he himself was injured. So… can’t totally buy your thesis. And when faced with an opponent in superb form in one of his peak years - Steve Cram - Cruz lost when Cram ran 1:42. And it would nonsense to consider Cram “as good” or better than Cruz overall at 800m. Cruz was a beast. An underrated beast.
Yeah, Cruz was superb. Underrated indeed.
I have to ask about the Armstronglivs person who relentlessly posts in the thread, he must be mentally ill. He makes post after post after post and seems like an obsessed child, always trying to get the last, meaningless word. Is he always like this?
Coe wasn’t at his peak in the races you listed, Cruz was indeed at his peak, and then could never again really approach that form and speed after he himself was injured. So… can’t totally buy your thesis. And when faced with an opponent in superb form in one of his peak years - Steve Cram - Cruz lost when Cram ran 1:42. And it would nonsense to consider Cram “as good” or better than Cruz overall at 800m. Cruz was a beast. An underrated beast.
Yeah, Cruz was superb. Underrated indeed.
I have to ask about the Armstronglivs person who relentlessly posts in the thread, he must be mentally ill. He makes post after post after post and seems like an obsessed child, always trying to get the last, meaningless word. Is he always like this?
So you want the last word? You certainly know what it means to be like an "obsessed child".
and if there's any runner I'd be biased about would be Cruz since I am Brazilian. It is simply a matter of evidence.
SAI QUE É SUA, TAFFAREL!!!
You're Brazilian - that's cool, I knew a number of Brazilian 800m guys back in the day. I raced a few times against Osmar Dos Santos and also Pecanha. I was the US trials back in 21 and next thing I see this tall, gangly figure with huge shoulders sitting down just in front of me - Jose Luis Barboza! (or Zequinha as you probably call him).
Cruz was one of my favorite guys growing up. One of his coolest workouts was his combined circuit training/tempo running workout.
Basically it was 3 sets of 3 different excercises. In one set you would do something like 60 seconds of high knees, then run 100m at a solid pace (maybe 15 seconds), then do another similar activity but slightly more challenging for say 30 seconds. Run the 100m again and then do a final activity for a set number (20 burpees) and then another 100m. You then take a 2min rest and do this another two times. At the end of three sets you take a rest and then run 800-1000m at tempo. Do the whole thing 2-3 times. Just an awesome combo workout of strength+threshold work. I emulated this workout for a number of season doing it barefoot on grass, doing 2 sets. Got the 800's down to 2.04, 2.01 for the best one I ever did. Cruz used to do it on a larger loop in Eugene somewhere.
I listened to him talk about his career/training philosophy back in the early 2000's which is where I got the info about his circuit sessions. He also ran almost all his mileage at good tempo, said he "wouldn't get out of bed to run slower than 6min/mile" which was kind of fashion in that era for a lot of the top MD guys (Sydney Maree was the same - just ran everything fast). Maybe that helped him reach such an incredibly high level relatively quickly - on the same level might not have helped with respect to his body in the long term.
But yeah, Brazil is definitely a great 800m nation - has as much heritage and pedigree as anyone over the distance.
Sai que é sua Taffarel - that's a very nice and nostalgic thing to say to a Brazilian - especially now with the current state of our national football team...
Cruz - such a force of nature. I have in my mind that in terms of pure raw talent, the top 3 most talented 800m runners in history are Snell, Cruz and Kipketer . The order is a matter of personal opinion... Cruz has his left left 2 cm longer than his right leg, something that is apparent when you see his races with attention. He ran 1:44.3 when he was 18, and that in 1981...
Barbosa - met him in person at the Oregon22 World Champs, he was leading the Brazilian delegation there. Such a fun runner to watch. Loved his bold, reckless style. You're right - for us he is Zequinha.
Him and Cruz are such different personalities that to be honest we could have our own Brazilian version of the Coe - Ovett duel, but differently from these two, there was no sense of rivalry between these two, but rather camaraderie and team work.
Nice - you must have been really good to compete against Osmar dos Santos - bronze medalist at Indoor Champs - and Fabiano Peçanha - (we spell it like "Pessanha"), Universiade gold medalist in 2005.
About Cruz - he is a legend in Eugene and also in the Paralympic world where he developed his career. I had the pleasure to meet him in person twice. Very gentle person and a very smart mind. It doesn't surprise me he's had such an influence on the training philosophy of so many good runners.
And yes Brazil has crazy potential, not only in 800m but all of track & field. We have random champions in lots of distances from sprinters (Claudinei Quirino, a Silver and Bronze medal in WCH and Robson Caetano, Olympic bronze at 200m) not to mention the successful relay teams, through hurdlers (of course Alison dos Santos), then Sanderlei Parrela at 400m (4th at Olympics and World Silver medal in Sevilla 99 with 44.29, Michael Johnson of course won that race), Cruz and the "gang" at the 800m, in long distance we had former WR holder at the Marathon, Ronaldo da Costa and also Vanderlei Cordeiro that we all remember from Athens. Field events, Maureen Maggi is Olympic gold at Long Jump, and at triple jump we have a huge history with Adhemar Ferreira, Nelson Prudencio and Joao Carlos de Oliveira - the latter a "freak of nature" and arguably the most talented triple jumper ever, also Darlan Romani in Shot Put and Thiago Braz in Pole Vault.
Brazil has the potential to be a powerhouse in the Sport but because of lack of infra-structure, disconnection from the education and sports system and other problems, we have only the random champions that succeed despite all the odds.
When you still "see" Ovett losing 14/100 in the last few steps of the '78 EC final, you are just biased. From the video of the race, it might be possible that he didn't put his max effort on the last 1 or 2 steps - that's 1/100, at most 2/100. He lost to Beyer by 25/100, because he couldn't hold his pace.
You think a 1.0 second slower 1st lap would give him a 1.6 second faster 2nd lap - based on which formula?
Regarding the extra meters covered, Marco Arop has run something like 51.2/49.4 for 1:40.6 in the Paris final. What do you think he could have run with a 50.5 1st lap?
How do you compare Ovett's 54.9/50.5 (for sure in weaker shoes) to that? Or to Kipketer's 48.2/53.0 in Zürich '97?
That you say Ovett in '79 wasn't as great as in the other years during his prime is based on exactly one thing: it helps your argumentation. Do you know all of Ovett's race distributions during this year? He raced great over 1500m/Mile (his by far best event) during the full season. When confronted with a very good 800m time, he lost. As always during his career. I can give you a very simple explanation for this: he just wasn't a great 800m time trialist like Coe, Cruz, Cram or so many others who came later. He could use his great finishing capabilities for his benefit (EC '78 (ignore Beyer) or OG '80).
You can see him as a potential 1:42.8 or maybe 1:41.0 runner if you like. I'm unbiased and see him at slightly under 1:44.0 in Prague and maybe at 1:43.5 in Moscow.
Despite his success, he wasn't an 800m runner. What do you think, why did he race the distance so rarely?
In the 78 race, he didn't put his max effort not for 1 or 2 steps as you claim, but rather for 7 or 8 steps as you can clearly see from the video. At 1:38 - 1:41 in the race clock you can see Ovett fighting hard as Beyer passes him. By 1:41.5 the race is over and he starts slowing down - there are 6-8 steps to the finish depending on how you count for the last 2-2.5 seconds of the race.
As for Arop, interesting that you mention as I have been following him recently - he certainly seems to be in WR shape for a while now and some even say 1:39 is possible. There's a recent thread here with a workout he posted a few weeks ago that many people claimed a 1:39 was possible. I am not sure I see your point re the Paris race though - 51.2 and 49.4 counting the extra meters (i haven't done this estimation myself but will trust you); with a 50.5 first lap instead he wouldn't have closed that fast but maybe a little bit faster as a final time. Judging from his recent training, I personally think he is at 1:40 low shape.
Kipketer is one of my favorite runners ever. I am of the opinion that he was very close to sub 1:40 shape at this day in Zurich. It is not only the 400m split, he's also gone ~23.0 for the first 200m which is suicidal. The fact he still ran 1:41.24 - a then World Record - is remarkable. I don't think I've ver seen a runner in that kind of shape for the 800m. Maybe Arop is in similar shape now but then with the advantage of the super shoes so I'd still take Kipketer that day in Zurich. Look at what happened with Amos in Zurich with a similar first lap (and 23.5 200m).
That you say Ovett in '79 wasn't as great as in the other years during his prime is based on exactly one thing: it helps your argumentation.
This is false and I posted my arguments based on facts and evidence. It wasn't as great because there's nothing spectacular from this season, contrary to 77-78, 80 and 81 (the year Ovett himself thought he was at his best). I posted you the evidence in my previous races, with stats and splits, including an example from the 79 season. Don't say that my opinion is based on "it helps your argumentation" when I actually posted evidence for it. It is not fair or honest.
he just wasn't a great 800m time trialist like Coe, Cruz, Cram or so many others who came later.
This is a false inference. You are inferring he wasn't good at 800m time trialing because he never tried. You cannot reach this conclusion. One thing that is true and there's evidence - including from Ovett himself - is that he didn't enjoy time trials as much of other runners did. This is a matter of mentality, personality. Some runners enjoy more than others. I've given other examples for this, one that is very clear is Mo Farah who never really cared about time trial races despite having the potential to get much closer to the then 3,000m/5000m WRs (some will actually argued he had decent chances of getting those records).
He could use his great finishing capabilities for his benefit (EC '78 (ignore Beyer)
Not true as this race is not an example of "his great finishing capabilities".
You can see him as a potential 1:42.8 or maybe 1:41.0 runner if you like. I'm unbiased and see him at slightly under 1:44.0 in Prague and maybe at 1:43.5 in Moscow.
You think I am biased but I have no particular preference for Ovett and if there's any runner I'd be biased about would be Cruz since I am Brazilian. It is simply a matter of evidence.
Slightly under 1:44.0 in Prague means what? 1:43.8?
So Ovett splits in that race were ~49.8 and ~54.3.
Are you defending the point that with a full second slower in his first lap, he would have finished only .2 or .3 faster ? I don't think so.
Again my case is based on evidence - show me a runner capable of a 24.4 last 200m in a 3:35 race (pre-super shoes); or capable of a 11.8 100m segment (not even Coe as he had 12.1 for final 100m split at his race in Moscow); or capable of a 50.5 last lap in an Olympic final with a ~25.0 last 200m (other than Coe of course). Show me other runner with 21.7 200m speed and 13:20 5,000m strength.
Show me evidence please.
Despite his success, he wasn't an 800m runner. What do you think, why did he race the distance so rarely?
He was a 800m runner and a 1,500m/Mile runner who matured quite early -- you can clearly see that as he was only 1 year older than Coe !! of course his individual biology played a role. Note how quickly he faded after his accident in 82, Coe was ~32/33 and ranked 2nd in the World at the 800m as well as a Silver Medal at 89' World Cup. Very different metabolism and development from Ovett.
81 was the last season of his "peak" and yet he was only 25/26. Coe's 1:42.3 is from 79 -- I mean, you're not really into time trials, and now the WR becomes significantly harder, perhaps even unattainable, why bothering...? I don't know. Only Ovett could answer this question.
Just a couple of things here:
The chances of Ovett time-trialing an 800m were over by the spring of 1979, due to the performances of Coe. It would have been pointless to set up an all out 800m time-trial just to prove he wasn't as quick as Coe.
Re Ovett's quicker decline (v Coe). By the time the LA Olympics were over, Ovett had two things working against him. One was that he never had the same acceleration again after the surgery post the clash with railings (recorded in his book). Two was that he did himself damage in LA. I was told not too long after (by a British team physio) that it caused a heart problem that limited his ability to do the really intense work for the 1500m (and somewhere Ovett himself said it left him with an arrhythmia).
Despite all that, he still won the 1986 Commonwealth Games 5000m over Tim Hutchings (fourth in the Olympic 5000m in 1984) and Jack Buckner (who would win the European 5000m not long after).
The chances of Ovett time-trialing an 800m were over by the spring of 1979, due to the performances of Coe. It would have been pointless to set up an all out 800m time-trial just to prove he wasn't as quick as Coe.
100% agree - and don't forget that it's right about 1980 where big money starts entering the sport (and a lot of it because of Coe and Ovett) so the carrots being dangled for the 1500m/mile were a lot "juicier" than for the 800m - a record even at 1.42.33 it was unlikely he could get (as you said).
It's simple - he really needed to be in that Oslo race back in 79 where Coe ran that WR and there could have been a good chance he held on to Coe out of pure pride and competitiveness and run something in the high 42's, low 43's. I mentioned this earlier but that was the only race under 1.43.0 in a 3 year period from the beginning of 78 through until the end of 1980. Heck it was the only race under 1.43.80 in that period and of course in the next fastest race (the 78 Euro's), it was Ovett who was only a quarter of a second behind in 2nd.
By the time Coe had posted that mark - one Ovett was likely not even running no matter what the race, it's as you said - there was no reason to time trial an 800 just to not beat Coes time - especially when he had won the Olympic title and was now getting big $$$ for his 1500/mile exploits.
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The chances of Ovett time-trialing an 800m were over by the spring of 1979, due to the performances of Coe. It would have been pointless to set up an all out 800m time-trial just to prove he wasn't as quick as Coe.
100% agree - and don't forget that it's right about 1980 where big money starts entering the sport (and a lot of it because of Coe and Ovett) so the carrots being dangled for the 1500m/mile were a lot "juicier" than for the 800m - a record even at 1.42.33 it was unlikely he could get (as you said).
It's simple - he really needed to be in that Oslo race back in 79 where Coe ran that WR and there could have been a good chance he held on to Coe out of pure pride and competitiveness and run something in the high 42's, low 43's. I mentioned this earlier but that was the only race under 1.43.0 in a 3 year period from the beginning of 78 through until the end of 1980. Heck it was the only race under 1.43.80 in that period and of course in the next fastest race (the 78 Euro's), it was Ovett who was only a quarter of a second behind in 2nd.
By the time Coe had posted that mark - one Ovett was likely not even running no matter what the race, it's as you said - there was no reason to time trial an 800 just to not beat Coes time - especially when he had won the Olympic title and was now getting big $ for his 1500/mile exploits.
Salvitore, don't you believe 77-78 Ovett, or perhaps 80 Ovett, could have run 1:42.5 on a time trial 800m race?
Salvitore, don't you believe 77-78 Ovett, or perhaps 80 Ovett, could have run 1:42.5 on a time trial 800m race?
I think it's a good question. I'm not sure but I'll be honest (and full disclosure Steve Ovett is one of my favorite runners ever - like maybe my favorite), I do think Ovett was at his best when he had someone to beat and I do think think he was better suited to time trialling over 1500 and the mile than he was over 800m.
My gut feeling is that over 800m if he was ever going to max out his potential (or get as close as possible to it) it would be in a race similar to Cram or Elliot where they had guys to key off through 600m and then use their strength in the final 100-150m, Cram had Joaquim in Zurich, Elliot had Johnny Gray in Seville. I don't think that's a knock on Ovett but I just couldn't see him blazing off behind a pacemaker in 50.0 knowing he was going to win the race no matter what like Coe could and did.
He was very fast as we know but he was always a strength guy above that. So I still believe he was capable of running under 1.43, but not with him making the pace himself. 1.42.50 would be the absolute top end of what he could run in a perfect scenario (maybe unwilling to let Coe get away from him in Oslo or something like that).
But it's just my feeling/opinion - I could very well be wrong.
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