That you argue times for athletes decades apart confirms how clueless you are.
Ingebrigtsen's PBs at age 22 in the year 2023 are much more impressive than Snell's PBs at age 22 in the year 1961.
What don't you understand here?
You've just shown you don't grasp the historical context of the discussion. Relative to his era Snell was far superior to Jakob. Proof of that are the world marks he achieved (outdoor as well as indoor) to Jakob's zilch, as well as the Olympic titles he gained. You can't simply compare times recorded over 60 years apart.
This post was edited 6 minutes after it was posted.
You've introduced reason into the debate, which none of the die-hard Jakob fans have so far been able to do. The only part where I take a different view is that to be a great all-rounder, as Bekele undoubtedly was, doesn't make an athlete a "greater" runner than one who absolutely dominated their specialty - as Rudisha (or Elliott) has. It's a judgement call.
I'm the complete opposite of a Jakob fan. How is it possible that a simple point like the one from page 6 can be changed into something like that here? It's really only possible with Armstrong. To see in dozens of threads.
I understand that some arguments are simply too difficult for some of you to grasp.
But "somebody" will have done better from 1500 to 10k and even including the marathon. So he isn't the best runner with the widest range, which is your fallacious measure of the "best" runner. He also isn't and never will be the best runner at either of his specialist events (like El G, Viren and Bekele were). So he can't be the GOAT.
It's not my measure.
This is just the point in discussion, no one has done better at age 22 at the events from 1500m to 5k than Ingebrigtsen. You still havn't got it and it's obvious now, you never will get it.
At the moment Ingebrigtsen is far from being the GOAT (not at 1500m, not at 5000m, not at distance running at all). His goal is to become the GOAT distance runner. You will never understand this point; it's way beyond your capabilities.
Viren held the 5000m WR for 6 days and the 10000m WR for 10 months. His Montreal success was heavily influenced by the African boycott. He can't be included in a serious GOAT debate.
I don't care whether you think no one has done better at the 1500m-5k at the age of 22. So what? It isn't the definitive measure of what might enable Jakob to claim he is the GOAT, which is his goal. Your argument is misplaced and irrelevant and my response was there have been better runners at 22 - like Elliott, who has a greater claim to be a md GOAT than Jakob so far has.
You've introduced reason into the debate, which none of the die-hard Jakob fans have so far been able to do. The only part where I take a different view is that to be a great all-rounder, as Bekele undoubtedly was, doesn't make an athlete a "greater" runner than one who absolutely dominated their specialty - as Rudisha (or Elliott) has. It's a judgement call.
I’m a die-hard Jakob fan, but I pretty much agree with your reasoning. 1. Yes, an athlete can be the Goat based on only one event (f.ex Bolt or Elliott).
2. Even if an athlete has outstanding range and medals there’s a need for strong and adequate WR ‘(s). After all we’re talking about the Greatest of all time here… Bolt, Rudisha and Elliott are the only ones (runners) I can think of good enough to be Goat material based on one event (Bolt even has two), and Kiptum was a fourth if he had lived to sub 2.
3. As for now I think Jakob isn’t inside the top ten list of Goat candidates. His 1500m indoors WR is weak, and 2 mile / 2000m off events (and too alike).
4. Cheptegei has two WR’s in championship events, but isn’t (rightly) considered by anyone (I have seen) to be the Goat. If therefore Jakob does something similar (f.ex betters the WR’s in 1500 and 5000m by a small margins) this clearly is not enough to Goat status…
5. Jakob can get multiple medals, and f.ex run 3.26.5 pb, WR in both 5/10000m, but will still be inferior to Bekele as I see it… (His shortest distance -the 1500m- will be better than Bekele’s shortest -3000m; 7.25 -but the latter wins on range / quality because of his 2.01.41)…
6. Mo Farah could have been a contester to Bekele (El Guerrouj also, if he had run a fast 5000m) -but he would then needed similar pb’s in the 5/10k, and a fast half marathon. Then he might have won on better 1500m pb…
7. Jakob is clearly Goat material. But he needs to show he’s more than just talk. And who knows what f.ex Kiplimo and Kejelcha and Cheptegei will do…
But "somebody" will have done better from 1500 to 10k and even including the marathon. So he isn't the best runner with the widest range, which is your fallacious measure of the "best" runner. He also isn't and never will be the best runner at either of his specialist events (like El G, Viren and Bekele were). So he can't be the GOAT.
It's not my measure.
This is just the point in discussion, no one has done better at age 22 at the events from 1500m to 5k than Ingebrigtsen. You still havn't got it and it's obvious now, you never will get it.
At the moment Ingebrigtsen is far from being the GOAT (not at 1500m, not at 5000m, not at distance running at all). His goal is to become the GOAT distance runner. You will never understand this point; it's way beyond your capabilities.
Viren held the 5000m WR for 6 days and the 10000m WR for 10 months. His Montreal success was heavily influenced by the African boycott. He can't be included in a serious GOAT debate.
Viren won the 5k-10k in two successive Olympics (with a wr in at least one of them). He so far leaves Jakob in the dust.
But "somebody" will have done better from 1500 to 10k and even including the marathon. So he isn't the best runner with the widest range, which is your fallacious measure of the "best" runner. He also isn't and never will be the best runner at either of his specialist events (like El G, Viren and Bekele were). So he can't be the GOAT.
It's not my measure.
This is just the point in discussion, no one has done better at age 22 at the events from 1500m to 5k than Ingebrigtsen. You still havn't got it and it's obvious now, you never will get it.
At the moment Ingebrigtsen is far from being the GOAT (not at 1500m, not at 5000m, not at distance running at all). His goal is to become the GOAT distance runner. You will never understand this point; it's way beyond your capabilities.
Viren held the 5000m WR for 6 days and the 10000m WR for 10 months. His Montreal success was heavily influenced by the African boycott. He can't be included in a serious GOAT debate.
I understand that Jakob wants to be the GOAT distance runner and that you've conceded that your measure of his achievements over the 1500m-5k are irrelevant to that discussion.
Ingebrigtsen's PBs at age 22 in the year 2023 are much more impressive than Snell's PBs at age 22 in the year 1961.
What don't you understand here?
You've just shown you don't grasp the historical context of the discussion. Relative to his era Snell was far superior to Jakob. Proof of that are the world marks he achieved (outdoor as well as indoor) to Jakob's zilch, as well as the Olympic titles he gained. You can't simply compare times recorded over 60 years apart.
Does he even read to what he replys?
3:27.14, 3:43.73, 4:43.13, 7:23.63, 7:54.10, 12:48.45 in 2023
is much more impressive than
1:46.5, 2:20.4, 4:01.5, 5:15.8 in 1961.
No world marks for Snell (not indoors, not outdoors) as he claimed,
1 Olympic title for Snell and no Commonwealth medals also is behind Ingebrigtsen's achievements.
Snell was amazing, but hard to compare eras when the competition back then was pretty dogsht. Olympic title in 60s is nothing like an Olympic title in 2020s. Population has exploded since then, third world countries have caught up and churned out killer athletes, and overall you can't just show up and win a bunch of events easily. Every race has several stars that are hunting for the win, not just letting the worldbeater get it easily.
This is just the point in discussion, no one has done better at age 22 at the events from 1500m to 5k than Ingebrigtsen. You still havn't got it and it's obvious now, you never will get it.
At the moment Ingebrigtsen is far from being the GOAT (not at 1500m, not at 5000m, not at distance running at all). His goal is to become the GOAT distance runner. You will never understand this point; it's way beyond your capabilities.
Viren held the 5000m WR for 6 days and the 10000m WR for 10 months. His Montreal success was heavily influenced by the African boycott. He can't be included in a serious GOAT debate.
I understand that Jakob wants to be the GOAT distance runner and that you've conceded that your measure of his achievements over the 1500m-5k are irrelevant to that discussion.
At age 22, no one in history has done as good as Ingebrigtsen from 1500m to 5k. For a runner who tends to the longer events (he has shown already extremely good endurence) that's a solid basis to seriously challenge his goal of becoming the GOAT distance runner. At the moment for sure he is far from this (nobody has said any different). For me, Olympic titles in the 5k and the 10k as well as more world records (also in at least 1 Olympic event) would be enough (maybe backed up with a steeple or half-marathon success). I don't think he ever will match the longevity of Gebrselassie, Bekele or Kipchoge. But for me, that's not necessary (others might differ) with his already achieved 1500m success, which is a big advantage against the others. For sure Elliott, Snell or Viren are no contenders.
I've not conceded anything, Dumbstrong. I try to explain to you what the discussion is about - so far a failed badly, since you are as far from understanding as at the beginning.
There's no use trying to compare things like PBs and medals between eras when every era has been so different. You have to determine who the best of each era is and then take your pick of who you think excels the most to be the best overall.
Paavo Nurmi was the best in the era where the sport consisted of amateurs and very few countries took track seriously, then you had the era where there was no mandatory drug testing, then you had the super shoe era and a ton of different eras.
This post was edited 1 minute after it was posted.
I'm the complete opposite of a Jakob fan. How is it possible that a simple point like the one from page 6 can be changed into something like that here? It's really only possible with Armstrong. To see in dozens of threads.
I understand that some arguments are simply too difficult for some of you to grasp.
You havn't given a single argument to the point in question. You have just had your own discussion with yourself without any connection to the post you replyd to.
You've introduced reason into the debate, which none of the die-hard Jakob fans have so far been able to do. The only part where I take a different view is that to be a great all-rounder, as Bekele undoubtedly was, doesn't make an athlete a "greater" runner than one who absolutely dominated their specialty - as Rudisha (or Elliott) has. It's a judgement call.
I’m a die-hard Jakob fan, but I pretty much agree with your reasoning. 1. Yes, an athlete can be the Goat based on only one event (f.ex Bolt or Elliott).
2. Even if an athlete has outstanding range and medals there’s a need for strong and adequate WR ‘(s). After all we’re talking about the Greatest of all time here… Bolt, Rudisha and Elliott are the only ones (runners) I can think of good enough to be Goat material based on one event (Bolt even has two), and Kiptum was a fourth if he had lived to sub 2.
3. As for now I think Jakob isn’t inside the top ten list of Goat candidates. His 1500m indoors WR is weak, and 2 mile / 2000m off events (and too alike).
4. Cheptegei has two WR’s in championship events, but isn’t (rightly) considered by anyone (I have seen) to be the Goat. If therefore Jakob does something similar (f.ex betters the WR’s in 1500 and 5000m by a small margins) this clearly is not enough to Goat status…
5. Jakob can get multiple medals, and f.ex run 3.26.5 pb, WR in both 5/10000m, but will still be inferior to Bekele as I see it… (His shortest distance -the 1500m- will be better than Bekele’s shortest -3000m; 7.25 -but the latter wins on range / quality because of his 2.01.41)…
6. Mo Farah could have been a contester to Bekele (El Guerrouj also, if he had run a fast 5000m) -but he would then needed similar pb’s in the 5/10k, and a fast half marathon. Then he might have won on better 1500m pb…
7. Jakob is clearly Goat material. But he needs to show he’s more than just talk. And who knows what f.ex Kiplimo and Kejelcha and Cheptegei will do…
Yes, an athlete can be GOAT distance runner based on only 1 event. But at the current moment thats extremely hard (if not almost impossible).
How would you trump Bekele's (or Gebrselassie's or...) achievements with one event? A career stretching two full decades with top achievements at a variety of events?
How can a pure 1500m runner (for example) top this? 4 Olympic titles and various sub 3:24 times? Maybe.
To better Bekele and Gebrselassie, you need several events. Success at the highest level from 1500m to 5k is a solid basis for Ingebrigtsen to achieve his goal. Let's wait to see what he can do in the years to come.
At the moment I'm really sceptical if he will win in Paris.
You've just shown you don't grasp the historical context of the discussion. Relative to his era Snell was far superior to Jakob. Proof of that are the world marks he achieved (outdoor as well as indoor) to Jakob's zilch, as well as the Olympic titles he gained. You can't simply compare times recorded over 60 years apart.
Does he even read to what he replys?
3:27.14, 3:43.73, 4:43.13, 7:23.63, 7:54.10, 12:48.45 in 2023
is much more impressive than
1:46.5, 2:20.4, 4:01.5, 5:15.8 in 1961.
No world marks for Snell (not indoors, not outdoors) as he claimed,
1 Olympic title for Snell and no Commonwealth medals also is behind Ingebrigtsen's achievements.
I don't think what you understood what I said because you keep making the same stupid false comparison.
Snell was amazing, but hard to compare eras when the competition back then was pretty dogsht. Olympic title in 60s is nothing like an Olympic title in 2020s. Population has exploded since then, third world countries have caught up and churned out killer athletes, and overall you can't just show up and win a bunch of events easily. Every race has several stars that are hunting for the win, not just letting the worldbeater get it easily.
Track today is not the sport that it was in the middle of the 20th century. Its stars were household names. Today, no one knows of any track star except a sprinter who has retired. The other main difference in a declining sport is that it is rife with doping at the top.
I understand that Jakob wants to be the GOAT distance runner and that you've conceded that your measure of his achievements over the 1500m-5k are irrelevant to that discussion.
At age 22, no one in history has done as good as Ingebrigtsen from 1500m to 5k. For a runner who tends to the longer events (he has shown already extremely good endurence) that's a solid basis to seriously challenge his goal of becoming the GOAT distance runner. At the moment for sure he is far from this (nobody has said any different). For me, Olympic titles in the 5k and the 10k as well as more world records (also in at least 1 Olympic event) would be enough (maybe backed up with a steeple or half-marathon success). I don't think he ever will match the longevity of Gebrselassie, Bekele or Kipchoge. But for me, that's not necessary (others might differ) with his already achieved 1500m success, which is a big advantage against the others. For sure Elliott, Snell or Viren are no contenders.
I've not conceded anything, Dumbstrong. I try to explain to you what the discussion is about - so far a failed badly, since you are as far from understanding as at the beginning.
It's not my measure, Dumbliar.
You are a stuck record. I can't be bothered responding to that twaddle.