Why should they be treated the same?? Only one of them is currently facing a whereabouts failure
And I'm not buying the coach thing below: Gjert wasn't some renowned coach, but he adopted a lot of Bakken's principles and he/his sons adapted and learned. It appears a training system is what Katir does as well under the direction of his coach.
That's kind of how it works, no? Learn, adapt, tweak. Rinse and repeat.
When Katir arrived on the scene, Gjert was, indeed, a renowned coach, lest ye want to take away his Norwegian Sports Coach of the Year award, which he earned prior to 99.99% of the posters here ever hearing the name Mohamed Katir.
Gjert had a system that got his athletes to low 3:30s or better. Lorente didn't have a similar workable system. Suddenly, Lorente makes massive gains in training theory, and, voilà, Katir is borne into this extravagant world of fast running, record-breaking, money earning and life-altering existence. Overnight. Across more than one discipline. That just doesn't make sense.
And Lorente has also coached Mariano Garcia to some nice accomplishments (World Indoor Champ, European Champ). You are a nobody coach until you are a somebody.
"Most obvious doper"...Let s be serious. He s slightly behind Ramzi.
Not sure where to put Farah and Makhloufi in there, though. Tough call.
Moorcroft:
5000 Metres YearPerformanceVenueDate1979 13:30.33 Gateshead (GBR) 10 JUN 1979 1980 13:29.1h Auckland (NZL) 16 FEB 1980 1981 13:20.51 Lausanne (SUI) 14 JUL 1981 1982 13:00.41 Oslo (NOR) 07 JUL 1982
Moorcroft only started to move up to the 5000m in 79 I believe, and then he had injuries until 1982.
Nordas was a long distance runner who switched to the 1500m, as well as switching coaches to the father and former coach of the Olympic 1500m champion.
Katir was always a 1500/5000m man. If you want to say 'he only got serious about the 5000m in 2021' (as another poster in this thread has), how do you explain how a 1500m man taking the 5000m more seriously knocks 8 seconds off his 1500m pb at 23?
BTW, I actually created a thread on Moorcroft's progression, which I'd always found a little suspicious. I also think Nordas does need to be scrutinised. But it's nothing like Katir, and there were multiple other red flags with him too.
Not to mention, Katir has been suspended and Nordas hasn't.
Moorcroft only started to move up to the 5000m in 79 I believe, and then he had injuries until 1982.
Nordas was a long distance runner who switched to the 1500m, as well as switching coaches to the father and former coach of the Olympic 1500m champion.
Katir was always a 1500/5000m man. If you want to say 'he only got serious about the 5000m in 2021' (as another poster in this thread has), how do you explain how a 1500m man taking the 5000m more seriously knocks 8 seconds off his 1500m pb at 23?
BTW, I actually created a thread on Moorcroft's progression, which I'd always found a little suspicious. I also think Nordas does need to be scrutinised. But it's nothing like Katir, and there were multiple other red flags with him too.
Not to mention, Katir has been suspended and Nordas hasn't.
Coevett fact-check:
Nordas did not switch coaches. He did not change training. He was a Gjert-trained athlete through and through training with the brothers for years. I don't know how you wouldn't know this, it has been well-documented.
His explanations for his meteoric rise from 5K also-ran to 1500 stud: -Hadn't found his event or raced a 1500 in good conditions -Underachieved in warm weather in the 5,000 -Was running his workouts too fast in training with Jakob being Gjert's focus -With Jakob out of the picture, began to train more properly -First intro to altitude in 2023 -Accumulation of years of high mileage finally paying off
I think you can be consistent and would be sceptical and scrutinising all this, as it seems pretty shaky. Like your Katir note, he also became much better in the 5,000 last year even while it was a secondary focus. He didn't put up a major mark (a lackluster 13:05 ~ 10 second PB) but he made the 5,000 final, which knocked out numerous sub-13 guys.
This post was edited 3 minutes after it was posted.
Katir's defense that he was available for testing during cited whereabouts failures raises serious questions. Anti-doping procedures are rigorous and leave little room for interpretation.
Here's what I want you to see:
Notice and Response: Within 14 days of a missed test or filing failure, athletes receive a notice and the opportunity to explain. Katir does not indicate that he followed this standard procedure.
Duty to Document: Athletes must substantiate any defense against whereabouts failures with detailed explanations and potential appeals. Katir has not demonstrated that he submitted such documentation.
The Process is Clear: Anti-doping authorities thoroughly investigate responses and issue a final decision within 14 days if additional inquiry is unnecessary. Katir does not mention receiving any such decisions.
Burden of Proof: Given the lack of documented explanations or appeals, Katir's claims of innocence remain unsubstantiated. Three separate whereabouts failures strongly suggest a violation of anti-doping regulations.
In the absence of compelling evidence to the contrary, Katir's assertion of availability is insufficient to clear him of potential wrongdoing.
Why should they be treated the same?? Only one of them is currently facing a whereabouts failure
Referring to their status before the ban. Obviously now, Katir is far more suspicious. And I'm not buying the coach thing below: Gjert wasn't some renowned coach, but he adopted a lot of Bakken's principles and he/his sons adapted and learned. It appears a training system is what Katir does as well under the direction of his coach. And yes perhaps some doping as well.
Nordas opens up in a pretty good 1500 in Lieven which should be a fun one.
Well most people here thought Katir was more suspicious than Nordas, and guess what? Katir has been suspended and Nordas hasn't. But the likes of you and Rekwash are incapable of learning from it. Another Moroccan will come along in a few years and suddenly turn into a world beater at 24 and you'll still apologise for them, even when they are busted.
Gjert wasn't a renowned coach, yeah, he only coached two guys into world finals and medals before Jakob. What did Katir's coach do before Katir's success? Well nothing, because he was literally a baker until 2020 with no connection to athletics.
There is also Katir's shady doping apologist manager, the facts of a doping culture history in both Morocco and Spain, Katir never actually denying taking drugs and instead just pointing to his ears while screaming or claiming that the wives of his doubters want to sleep with him.
Even now he doesn't appear to be explicitly denying doping, just pointing out again that he has never failed a test. I wonder if there is a legal reason for that? Perhaps his sponsors can claim their money back more easily if he actually lied and said he was clean, and his lawyers have advised him of that?
Katir was busted beginning of year 4 at a high level, we are barely in year 2 of Nordas. Let us see. The coach has 2 top athletes, I don’t know what to tell you. Gjert has clearly done a lot but once he was just the father of kids who trained a ton.
This post was edited 13 minutes after it was posted.
Moorcroft only started to move up to the 5000m in 79 I believe, and then he had injuries until 1982.
Nordas was a long distance runner who switched to the 1500m, as well as switching coaches to the father and former coach of the Olympic 1500m champion.
Katir was always a 1500/5000m man. If you want to say 'he only got serious about the 5000m in 2021' (as another poster in this thread has), how do you explain how a 1500m man taking the 5000m more seriously knocks 8 seconds off his 1500m pb at 23?
BTW, I actually created a thread on Moorcroft's progression, which I'd always found a little suspicious. I also think Nordas does need to be scrutinised. But it's nothing like Katir, and there were multiple other red flags with him too.
Not to mention, Katir has been suspended and Nordas hasn't.
Coevett fact-check:
Nordas did not switch coaches. He did not change training. He was a Gjert-trained athlete through and through training with the brothers for years. I don't know how you wouldn't know this, it has been well-documented.
His explanations for his meteoric rise from 5K also-ran to 1500 stud: -Hadn't found his event or raced a 1500 in good conditions -Underachieved in warm weather in the 5,000 -Was running his workouts too fast in training with Jakob being Gjert's focus -With Jakob out of the picture, began to train more properly -First intro to altitude in 2023 -Accumulation of years of high mileage finally paying off
I think you can be consistent and would be sceptical and scrutinising all this, as it seems pretty shaky. Like your Katir note, he also became much better in the 5,000 last year even while it was a secondary focus. He didn't put up a major mark (a lackluster 13:05 ~ 10 second PB) but he made the 5,000 final, which knocked out numerous sub-13 guys.
Nordas was also balancing training with a job and studying for a Master's degree. He wasn't all-in on being a pro runner until last year
And Lorente has also coached Mariano Garcia to some nice accomplishments (World Indoor Champ, European Champ). You are a nobody coach until you are a somebody.
Or knows how to dope better: No name coach or the guy who has already doped 3 other guys to world class status?
and my take away from these discussions is that should start doping at 19, people will not be as suspicious. Wait til your mid 20s and you look guilty…
Sorry man rekrunner, you are you, you operate based on the letter of the law but you should accept that other people are different, even more superior than you if they operate based on the spirit of the law!!!
A missed test or filing error is most like the spirit of doping otherwise it wouldn't be an antidoping violation of the antidoping code. It's furthest away from the spirit of honesty and fairplay!
What about the electromagnetic signatures in Spain?
No, only you do that. Most people see it for what it is.
I can't really control what you believe most people see.
I prefer to stick with how WADA documents describe "whereabouts failures".
They see them as a likely cover for doping - as most people do - which is why it is an antidoping violation. Of course an athlete won't return a positive test if they can't be tested. That's why a doped athlete will avoid being tested. But you always look for excuses for the athlete. Most athletes can meet their testing obligations - and do - so if they are failing to do so they are either as thick as two planks and incompetent as professional athletes, or they are doping. So what are your grounds for suggesting Katir is an innocent dimwit?
Moorcroft only started to move up to the 5000m in 79 I believe, and then he had injuries until 1982.
Nordas was a long distance runner who switched to the 1500m, as well as switching coaches to the father and former coach of the Olympic 1500m champion.
Katir was always a 1500/5000m man. If you want to say 'he only got serious about the 5000m in 2021' (as another poster in this thread has), how do you explain how a 1500m man taking the 5000m more seriously knocks 8 seconds off his 1500m pb at 23?
BTW, I actually created a thread on Moorcroft's progression, which I'd always found a little suspicious. I also think Nordas does need to be scrutinised. But it's nothing like Katir, and there were multiple other red flags with him too.
Not to mention, Katir has been suspended and Nordas hasn't.
Coevett fact-check:
Nordas did not switch coaches. He did not change training. He was a Gjert-trained athlete through and through training with the brothers for years. I don't know how you wouldn't know this, it has been well-documented.
His explanations for his meteoric rise from 5K also-ran to 1500 stud: -Hadn't found his event or raced a 1500 in good conditions -Underachieved in warm weather in the 5,000 -Was running his workouts too fast in training with Jakob being Gjert's focus -With Jakob out of the picture, began to train more properly -First intro to altitude in 2023 -Accumulation of years of high mileage finally paying off
I think you can be consistent and would be sceptical and scrutinising all this, as it seems pretty shaky. Like your Katir note, he also became much better in the 5,000 last year even while it was a secondary focus. He didn't put up a major mark (a lackluster 13:05 ~ 10 second PB) but he made the 5,000 final, which knocked out numerous sub-13 guys.
Everyone always has a story. Does Nordas explain his rise? Sure. In the same way katirs story of not taking the sport seriously til 2019, not being able to go to altitude and training limitations in 2020 explain his breakthrough. Or of course they both could have decide that it was the time to start doing drugs…
We have no way of knowing til more info comes in. Right now Katie is a doper and Nordas isn’t. But it has nothing to do with progression. It is all about avoiding tests…
Katir was a serious runner training like a dog even before 2018. His Instagram used to go back before that and he was posting training and race pics constantly. He also had a six-pack and had a side gig as a male model. He's deleted all his old photos.
One thing that needs to be stated that is relevant whether people like it or not - he came to Spain at five with his father illegally in order to have a better financial future. And yet it's racist to suppose he would be prepared to cheat in order to become rich. Right.
Everyone always has a story. Does Nordas explain his rise? Sure. In the same way katirs story of not taking the sport seriously til 2019, not being able to go to altitude and training limitations in 2020 explain his breakthrough. Or of course they both could have decide that it was the time to start doing drugs…
We have no way of knowing til more info comes in. Right now Katie is a doper and Nordas isn’t. But it has nothing to do with progression. It is all about avoiding tests…
But 'Katir not taking the sport seriously' is just a made-up fact by Thoughtlessleader. And it's not just the crazy progression (during the lockdowns), it's about the coach with no experience, the fact that he is representing the dirtiest European country for doping and comes from a country that has not only produced many distance running dopers, but even many dopers representing their European host countries (and now Katir is yet another one). And a manager who mamaged the doper Cacho and who claims dopers should get fourth and fifth chances. He also never denied taking drugs and reacts to accusations with taunts about sleeping with wives and having a bigger D.
There are truly some doping apologist scum here. Wouldn't be surprised if Katir's coach or manager is posting here.
Minor detail reported in the Spanish press but not yet mentioned here: Ketir had "previously planned to skip the Glasgow Indoor Worlds..." Good thinking. Just might get tested...
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