Both of those quotes are from a former transgender male athlete so it’s not surprising he supports Thomas. Check out the comments in response to articles about Thomas and you’ll see that about 99% are criticizing her and/or opposed to her being allowed to compete against women.
Schuyler Bailar is not "a former transgender" person, though. Bailar is a female who still very much "identifies as" a man and is a professional evangelist for the Church of Gender Ideology.
By coupling the words "former" and "transgender" in describing Bailar, you've given the impression that Bailar might be one of the large and growing numbers of young people who have left the faith by detransitioning. In fact,some could easily read the words "former transgender" to mean that Bailar is now an apostate and might even be the trans equivalent of what Scientologists call a "suppressive person." When in fact, Bailar is very much a true believer.
Those who share and support Bailar's religious ideology say there is no such thing as "former transgender" and that it's a sin and heresy to use those two words together like that. They'd also say that by referring to Bailar as "a former transgender" athlete you've not shown proper deference to Bailar's claimed gender identity and have misgendered Bailar! That's downright transphobic.
So watch out, coz the sound you hear in the distance could well be the braying of the pitchfork-waving mob coming for you too.
I said former transgender athlete and not former transgender person. There’s a difference and “athlete” is the key word. Does “a transgender male that used to compete in the NCAA” work for you?
Why isn’t this pitchfork-waving-mob posting pro-Thomas comments anywhere?
Anyway, my post was in response to the belief Bailar’s comments represent more than just a few people other than himself.
If there is one topic that can unite 90 percent of America, its this one. This is totally ridiculous and unjust. Needs to be like a 5 year adjustment period after sex change, before any competition.
For the NCAA, 5 years would require starting hormone treatments in 8th grade or going on multiple Mormon missions.
Even 8th grade might be a bit too late to prevent advantage from male puberty. (That's the standard set by the USA Swimming.)
Transgender athletes want to compete as women and there is no possible compromise. A separate but equal approach is 100% a ban and impractical. Do people attending a track meet want a 35 minute intermission while 1-2 transgender athletes race a 10000m?
I’m not advocating for transgender female athletes but a separate category is not a possible solution.
Markus Rehm wanted to compete in the Olympics. It was within his rights to ask for inclusion. But I think the right decision was made not to allow him to compete against Tentoglou.
Some of the para categories have even fewer population base than trans people. But they could maintain their own separate categories. So why is it not a possible solution?
She blames the NCAA for not declaring Thomas ineligible but it’s not clear it had the power to do so which is why they tried to punt the decision to U.S.A Swimming.
NCAA had an option of following the USA Swimming's new policy for this year's championships. And they decided against it. So yes, they had the power to declare Thomas ineligible. They chose not to.
Schuyler Bailar is not "a former transgender" person, though. Bailar is a female who still very much "identifies as" a man and is a professional evangelist for the Church of Gender Ideology.
By coupling the words "former" and "transgender" in describing Bailar, you've given the impression that Bailar might be one of the large and growing numbers of young people who have left the faith by detransitioning. In fact,some could easily read the words "former transgender" to mean that Bailar is now an apostate and might even be the trans equivalent of what Scientologists call a "suppressive person." When in fact, Bailar is very much a true believer.
Those who share and support Bailar's religious ideology say there is no such thing as "former transgender" and that it's a sin and heresy to use those two words together like that. They'd also say that by referring to Bailar as "a former transgender" athlete you've not shown proper deference to Bailar's claimed gender identity and have misgendered Bailar! That's downright transphobic.
So watch out, coz the sound you hear in the distance could well be the braying of the pitchfork-waving mob coming for you too.
I said former transgender athlete and not former transgender person. There’s a difference and “athlete” is the key word. Does “a transgender male that used to compete in the NCAA” work for you?
Why isn’t this pitchfork-waving-mob posting pro-Thomas comments anywhere?
Anyway, my post was in response to the belief Bailar’s comments represent more than just a few people other than himself.
In 12 pages of this thread, how many people are in support of trans inclusion in sports? I think only Lenny, so one? It’s not a popular stance. Sports will get sorted out and be sex based only.
Here is an interesting article on this subject that came out a couple of years ago. As a female in sports myself, while I will never be okay with having biological men in women's sports and I hope that it never fully comes to fruition, I very much respect Bearden's efforts to essentially make herself a scientific test subject to see just how much impact transitioning as a male has on her athletic performance, especially over time. Also, she has my respect because she sees things from the women's point of view whose sports she wants to be part of, she sees the inherent unfairness there and she RESPECTS it. McKinnon by contrast, pushes and shoves her way in similar to Thomas and a number of other trans athletes, showing blatant disregard to the women whose sports they're trampling all over which does nothing to help the trans movement although strangely they seem to think it does. Anyway, it's worth a read if you've got the time:
These transgender cyclists have Olympian disagreement on how to define fairness (usatoday.com)
Your link leads to the USA Today homepage. Here is the link to the article.
“Lia is such a kind person,” Bailar said. “I have spent time with her, and she is so kind. She’s just compassionate. She is shy. She is an all-around very nice human, and I think people miss that. I know people miss that. They are painting her as some nefarious human that is trying to destroy women’s sport. She is just a woman who is trying her best in a sport that she loves. And she is a real person. I hate having to say that, but it’s true, and people have to treat her as such.”
To exclude transgender women, sports officials will have to know which athletes are trans and which are not. Organizations will have to come up with a way to test all female athletes. “What this is doing is creating this box of what a woman can look like, what a woman can perform like [and] what a woman can sound like,” he said. “And at what point is a woman [who is] too good going to be accused of being transgender and thrown out? At what point is a girl too fast, too tall, her bones too big, her shoulders too wide, her hair too short, her appearance too masculine? At what point are they going to be accused of being transgender?”
Man, how could we ever know which athletes are trans and which ones aren’t? Forget the vulgarity of just saying “drop your Speedo,” is it ever NOT known, via standard record keeping, if somebody changed their gender? This would be easy to determine even if the athlete transitioned before college.
She blames the NCAA for not declaring Thomas ineligible but it’s not clear it had the power to do so which is why they tried to punt the decision to U.S.A Swimming.
NCAA had an option of following the USA Swimming's new policy for this year's championships. And they decided against it. So yes, they had the power to declare Thomas ineligible. They chose not to.
I’m pretty sure Thomas could have received a court injunction to compete anyway. Saying someone is eligible and then changing their mind during the season would not have worked.
One of the frustrating things about these convos is they always focus on the physical advantages males acquire during the puberty of adolescence. Many people seem to think that prior to then, boys and girls are pretty much equally matched. But this is not the case.
Due to differences in anatomy and physiology that develop during gestation in utero, which become more numerous and pronounced during the mini puberty of infancy that occurs in the months following birth, male children have a big leg up over female children in nearly all sports from early childhood on. You can see the difference in sports for kids 3 and 4, like the Tee ball level of Little League.
During the usually-overlooked but extremely important "mini puberty of infancy" that commences about 4 weeks after birth and lasts for anywhere from 4 to 7-8 months, male babies experience a massive surge in testosterone, so much so that for several months in the first year of life the testosterone levels of baby boys are as high they will be years later during the puberty of adolescence.
During the puberty of adolescence, boys hearts will grow to be 25-38% larger and more powerful than the hears of girls of the same height and weight, and the lungs will become 10-12% larger and more powerful. But even at one year old, the heart's crucial left ventricle - which pumps oxygenated blood to the rest of the body - in boys will be 6-8% more muscular and powerful than in girls. Similarly, from birth there are myriad differences in the respiratory systems of boys and girls including in the airway cells. The result is that girls and boys breathe differently, and it takes less total exertion and energy expenditure for boys to move the same amount of air in and out of the lungs than it does for girls.
These convos are frustrating also because they make it seem that if males reduce their testosterone and take exogenous estrogen, they essentially become the same as females. Not true.
Most girls begin menstruating and developing breasts during in middle school, usually 5th to 7th grade, but sometimes in 3rd or 4th grade. Puberty in girls is only considered precocious if it starts before a girl turns 8.
Periods and all the issues that come with them - cramps, blood loss/anemia, clotting, heavy flows leading to embarrassing leaks, premenstrual bloating, insomnia, fatigue, mood changes, food cravings, breast tenderness etc - make a huge difference in girls' ability to train and compete. So does dealing with suddenly developing breasts, which can have marked effects what girls can do physically and what they feel comfortable doing. Breasts also impact girls psychologically and socially, because with them comes a whole lot of unwanted male attention, and usually unwanted vulgar comments, texts, touching and pressing from males too.
The combination of these factors places stresses on girls that boys and men who simply lower their T and add some E can't imagine.
Also, the supposedly "female hormone profile" that males like Lia Thomas seek to mimic by taking "gender affirming" hormone treatments for "gender transition" is actually nothing like the hormone profiles of female people.
Most males who "identify as" women but keep their testicles as nearly all do today rarely get their T levels anywhere near the normal female range. Moreover, as Lia Thomas explained in an interview a couple of months ago, along with a T suppressant, such males simply just take estrogen supplements - and they take the same amount of estrogen day after day.
But females experience marked hormonal changes day by day over the course of occur monthly ovulation-menstruation cycle. Also, estrogen is not the only sex hormone that girls and women make over the course of the month, and it's not the only one that has an impact on our ability to participate in and be our best at sports.
One of the results of girls's and women's constantly changing sex hormone levels is changes in the stretchiness and laxity of our connective tissue and thus the stability of our joints. This means at certain times of the month we are much more prone to sports injuries than at others. This has a huge impact on ability to train and compete, and on the types of that we can do most easily and safely at some times of the month versus others.
The national swimming records in countries like the US, UK and Australia as well as regional, state, municipal authorities show that boys consistently beat girls at all age levels. The size of performance gap grows with time, but there's always a performance gap.
For the NCAA, 5 years would require starting hormone treatments in 8th grade or going on multiple Mormon missions.
Even 8th grade might be a bit too late to prevent advantage from male puberty. (That's the standard set by the USA Swimming.)
An 8th grade boy's basketball team would crush a high school girl's basketball team. I played on an 8th grade team with 3 six footers who could all touch the rim.
One of the frustrating things about these convos is they always focus on the physical advantages males acquire during the puberty of adolescence. Many people seem to think that prior to then, boys and girls are pretty much equally matched. But this is not the case.
Due to differences in anatomy and physiology that develop during gestation in utero, which become more numerous and pronounced during the mini puberty of infancy that occurs in the months following birth, male children have a big leg up over female children in nearly all sports from early childhood on. You can see the difference in sports for kids 3 and 4, like the Tee ball level of Little League.
During the usually-overlooked but extremely important "mini puberty of infancy" that commences about 4 weeks after birth and lasts for anywhere from 4 to 7-8 months, male babies experience a massive surge in testosterone, so much so that for several months in the first year of life the testosterone levels of baby boys are as high they will be years later during the puberty of adolescence.
During the puberty of adolescence, boys hearts will grow to be 25-38% larger and more powerful than the hears of girls of the same height and weight, and the lungs will become 10-12% larger and more powerful. But even at one year old, the heart's crucial left ventricle - which pumps oxygenated blood to the rest of the body - in boys will be 6-8% more muscular and powerful than in girls. Similarly, from birth there are myriad differences in the respiratory systems of boys and girls including in the airway cells. The result is that girls and boys breathe differently, and it takes less total exertion and energy expenditure for boys to move the same amount of air in and out of the lungs than it does for girls.
These convos are frustrating also because they make it seem that if males reduce their testosterone and take exogenous estrogen, they essentially become the same as females. Not true.
Most girls begin menstruating and developing breasts during in middle school, usually 5th to 7th grade, but sometimes in 3rd or 4th grade. Puberty in girls is only considered precocious if it starts before a girl turns 8.
Periods and all the issues that come with them - cramps, blood loss/anemia, clotting, heavy flows leading to embarrassing leaks, premenstrual bloating, insomnia, fatigue, mood changes, food cravings, breast tenderness etc - make a huge difference in girls' ability to train and compete. So does dealing with suddenly developing breasts, which can have marked effects what girls can do physically and what they feel comfortable doing. Breasts also impact girls psychologically and socially, because with them comes a whole lot of unwanted male attention, and usually unwanted vulgar comments, texts, touching and pressing from males too.
The combination of these factors places stresses on girls that boys and men who simply lower their T and add some E can't imagine.
Also, the supposedly "female hormone profile" that males like Lia Thomas seek to mimic by taking "gender affirming" hormone treatments for "gender transition" is actually nothing like the hormone profiles of female people.
Most males who "identify as" women but keep their testicles as nearly all do today rarely get their T levels anywhere near the normal female range. Moreover, as Lia Thomas explained in an interview a couple of months ago, along with a T suppressant, such males simply just take estrogen supplements - and they take the same amount of estrogen day after day.
But females experience marked hormonal changes day by day over the course of occur monthly ovulation-menstruation cycle. Also, estrogen is not the only sex hormone that girls and women make over the course of the month, and it's not the only one that has an impact on our ability to participate in and be our best at sports.
One of the results of girls's and women's constantly changing sex hormone levels is changes in the stretchiness and laxity of our connective tissue and thus the stability of our joints. This means at certain times of the month we are much more prone to sports injuries than at others. This has a huge impact on ability to train and compete, and on the types of that we can do most easily and safely at some times of the month versus others.
The national swimming records in countries like the US, UK and Australia as well as regional, state, municipal authorities show that boys consistently beat girls at all age levels. The size of performance gap grows with time, but there's always a performance gap.
I watched the NCAA women 500 yard Free a few minutes ago
You know when is the last time I watched an NCAA race?
Never.
You know how many views?
59K
The women 100 free (which Thomas did not swim) has 8K views
She did bring exposure to women swimming
Of course more people watched the Lia Thomas race. That's because everyone wanted to see what the fuss was about. Just like the women's 800 got a lot more attention when Semenya was running.
Women's basketball would get a lot more attention if Shaq said he felt female and started to play in the WNBA. It would be their highest ratings ever! But would it be fair? No.
And can you imagine the ratings for a tennis match between female/trans LeBron James in a dress vs Serena Williams? But that doesn't mean it should be allowed. Fairness in sports should not be determined by ratings and views.
I watched the NCAA women 500 yard Free a few minutes ago
You know when is the last time I watched an NCAA race?
Never.
You know how many views?
59K
The women 100 free (which Thomas did not swim) has 8K views
She did bring exposure to women swimming
This is like saying Putin's invasion of Ukraine has benefitted that country by bringing attention to it.
Makes a neat analogy though: Lia Thomas is to women's swimming as Vladimir Putin is to Ukraine.
A little extreme.
It’s obviously not Thomas’ fault. She is simply following the rules and bringing exposure to women swimming at the same time (all of a sudden people actually care if Emma Weyant has a fair chance (who?)).
In my mind, the people who booed Thomas are wrong.
Yes, you can write a letter to the NCAA or protest in front of NCAA office. That’s fine. But Thomas did nothing wrong.
Wow, just read through this thread. So much vitriol and hate. The cherry on the top was Run Ragged comparing Thomas to Putin. That’s despicable in my opinion. Truly. All this bs that Thomas is a malignant narcissist. Does anybody know her who has posted? Lia Thomas is a woman. Full stop. She’s a decent but unremarkable woman swimmer. She finished first, 5th and 8th. No records were broken. She’s still like 10 sec slower than Ledecky in her best event. Women’s swimming is just fine it seems after this championship. Life goes on. In the pursuit of meaningful competition, Thomas should not have been permitted to compete, I agree, but that does not excuse a lot of what’s been said about her or other trans athletes. I’m not sure if there is a fair path to allowing trans women to compete in the women’s category, like after some period of testosterone suppression, or not, and I freely acknowledge the biological differences between men and women that bear on athletic performance, on average, though there’s considerable overlap. (At my best as a male runner I would had my ass kicked by all elite woman in every event over 800m.) Regardless none of this excuses the TERFs l, and all of the hate.
For the NCAA, 5 years would require starting hormone treatments in 8th grade or going on multiple Mormon missions.
Even 8th grade might be a bit too late to prevent advantage from male puberty. (That's the standard set by the USA Swimming.)
That wasn’t the point I was trying to make. I couldn’t find any studies about when a transgender person commences hormone treatments, but one starting in 8th is unlikely. Few parents want to responsible for irreversible physical changes and want their child to wait until they are an adult.
Wow, just read through this thread. So much vitriol and hate. The cherry on the top was Run Ragged comparing Thomas to Putin. That’s despicable in my opinion. Truly. All this bs that Thomas is a malignant narcissist. Does anybody know her who has posted? Lia Thomas is a woman. Full stop. She’s a decent but unremarkable woman swimmer. She finished first, 5th and 8th. No records were broken. She’s still like 10 sec slower than Ledecky in her best event. Women’s swimming is just fine it seems after this championship. Life goes on. In the pursuit of meaningful competition, Thomas should not have been permitted to compete, I agree, but that does not excuse a lot of what’s been said about her or other trans athletes. I’m not sure if there is a fair path to allowing trans women to compete in the women’s category, like after some period of testosterone suppression, or not, and I freely acknowledge the biological differences between men and women that bear on athletic performance, on average, though there’s considerable overlap. (At my best as a male runner I would had my ass kicked by all elite woman in every event over 800m.) Regardless none of this excuses the TERFs l, and all of the hate.
ESPN feature writer Katie Barnes joins Takeline to review the tension surrounding Lia Thomas' swimming career. She was the only known transgender woman compe...
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