DinoZ wrote:
Any man who thinks beating a woman in any sporting event is some accomplishment needs help.
Any decent high school boy sprinter can beat Elaine Thompson, wow, big deal.
If I were to beat Paige Bueckers in 1 on 1, I would be damn proud of it. Just like I would be proud of it if I ever broke 20 in a 5k again. Neither of these will ever happen, but they would be big accomplishments for me, and for most people.
Lenny Leonard wrote:
Transwomen are women. They should be in women’s sports.
Lenny,
You say transwomen are women, as if (A) there is an agreed upon definition of what "woman" means, and (B) transwomen meet that definition. So what is your definition?
This post was removed.
Love it!
Tatar... wrote:
You won't even say 'man' or 'woman' anymore. Reduced to 'male person', 'female person' and 'trans-identified person'. You are using this weird language because deep down you understand more goes into womanhood than just wombs and X chromosomes.
And you are wrong also. If you are born a boy and later identify as a woman, it's a fair bet you're going to have a tough time. To reject the privileges of manhood in favor of identifying as a woman is just about the surest way to infuriate the sexists. The patriarchy considers masculinity the highest characteristic and for someone to reject it is a huge deal.
I'm using "this weird language" because genderists like you insist that woman is a "gender identity" that any male can appropriate and claim for himself, and you keep saying regressive things such as "more goes into womanhood than just wombs and X chromosomes."
I define woman and girl the way dictionaries long have: adult human female; female child. On this thread and others, you have said no, that's wrong, and you have also said that defining girls/women by our female biology is transphobic. But you never say exactly what your alternate definitions of these words are.
So Tatar, please spell it out: how exactly do you define woman/girl? What specific criteria make some people girls/women and others boys/men?
As for your claim that for a boy or man "To reject the privileges of manhood in favor of identifying as a woman is just about the surest way to infuriate the sexists." I don't believe this is the case. I think boys and men who say they "identify as" women are embodying and expressing male privilege, not rejecting it. This is especially true of those who use their claimed "gender identities" to horn in on and dominate in girls and women's sports, to insert themselves in the spaces and services meant and designed for females, and to tell the world they know better what a woman is and how to be a woman than biologically female people do.
Also, males who claim to "identify as" girls and women are still above us actual women in the pecking order, particularly today. If the athletes whose media portrayals I've linked to on this thread were female, they'd be ignored, talked over or down to, laughed at for making preposterous claims and told, "oh c'mon, stop pulling our legs." It's because they are male, and they are perceived by others as male, that they, their stories and their struggles get so much attention and sympathy. It's also precisely because they are male that the untrue and wholly unsubstantiated claims they make are accepted with little or no question by the press and presented to the public at face value.
There's a stark difference between the way Rachel Dolezal was treated for claiming to be black when she's white and the way males of all races today are treated for claiming to be women. Which is odd because the physical differences between persons of different races are few in number and superficial, whereas there are thousands of significant physical differences between human males and females. Moreover, physical sex differences in humans are wide-ranging and run deep. They exist in many/most body parts beyond our reproductive organs and can be found in every nucleated cell in our bodies.
OFOOS wrote:
Lenny Leonard wrote:
Transwomen are women. They should be in women’s sports.
Lenny,
You say transwomen are women, as if (A) there is an agreed upon definition of what "woman" means, and (B) transwomen meet that definition. So what is your definition?
Well, for starters, I’d imagine someone like Lia Thomas has “F” on her drivers license. If you asked her if she was a man or a woman, she would say “woman.”
Maybe just ask the person? That’s my definition.
News update: since this thread began, Lia Thomas has racked up new wins and smashed more records in women's swimming!
On Friday, December 3, Thomas set a new pool, meet and program record in the women's 500 freestyle, and now is the fastest collegiate swimmer in that event in the whole USA!
Lia Thomas, the University of Pennsylvania swimmer who competed as a male for three seasons at the Ivy League school before joining the women’s team this season, set new records Friday night in Akron at the Zippy Invitational.
Thomas, who was a second-team All-Ivy League swimmer as a male, now owns the fastest 500m female freestyle time in the nation after setting an Akron pool record and lowering the Penn women’s all-time record with a time of 4:34:06.
How dominant was Thomas’ performance? The Penn sports information department reports Will/Lia set a pool record and meet record in the prelims and then went more than 12 seconds faster in the finals to beat her teammate Anna Kalandadze who had a time of 4:48.99.
That’s right, Will/Lia won the Zippy Invitational 500 free by 14.39 seconds.
The NCAA all-time record in the women's 500 free is 4:24.06, set by Stanford’s Katie Ledecky in 2017. The next four fastest times were set by Leah Smith (4:28.90, 2017), Katie Hoff (4:30.47, 2007), Dagny Knutson (4:31.18, 2009). and Brooke Forde (4:31.34, 2019).
At the 2021 NCAA women’s national championships, Paige Madden of Virgina won gold in the 500 free with a time of 4:33.61.
Are there any pictures of this guy wearing a swimsuit outside of the pool? I mean, seriously, it is pretty damn difficult to hide "things" in a swimsuit. You can get away with that in a lot of sports but not swimming. I really hope this guy CRUSHES Katie Ledecky in Paris and smashes the world record. This is the only way anything will ever be done to make athletics fair for women again.
RunRagged wrote:
News update: since this thread began, Lia Thomas has racked up new wins and smashed more records in women's swimming!
On Friday, December 3, Thomas set a new pool, meet and program record in the women's 500 freestyle, and now is the fastest collegiate swimmer in that event in the whole USA!
Lia Thomas, the University of Pennsylvania swimmer who competed as a male for three seasons at the Ivy League school before joining the women’s team this season, set new records Friday night in Akron at the Zippy Invitational.
Thomas, who was a second-team All-Ivy League swimmer as a male, now owns the fastest 500m female freestyle time in the nation after setting an Akron pool record and lowering the Penn women’s all-time record with a time of 4:34:06.
How dominant was Thomas’ performance? The Penn sports information department reports Will/Lia set a pool record and meet record in the prelims and then went more than 12 seconds faster in the finals to beat her teammate Anna Kalandadze who had a time of 4:48.99.
That’s right, Will/Lia won the Zippy Invitational 500 free by 14.39 seconds.
https://www.outkick.com/transgender-penn-swimmer-sets-another-record-has-fastest-female-500m-time-in-the-nation/https://pennathletics.com/news/2021/12/3/womens-swimming-and-diving-womens-swimming-diving-in-second-place-after-day-one-of-zippy-invitational.aspxThe NCAA all-time record in the women's 500 free is 4:24.06, set by Stanford’s Katie Ledecky in 2017. The next four fastest times were set by Leah Smith (4:28.90, 2017), Katie Hoff (4:30.47, 2007), Dagny Knutson (4:31.18, 2009). and Brooke Forde (4:31.34, 2019).
At the 2021 NCAA women’s national championships, Paige Madden of Virgina won gold in the 500 free with a time of 4:33.61.
The difference between the men's and women's winning 500m times at the last championships was 26 seconds. To date, Thomas has only slowed by 16 seconds, so clearly the hormone treatments are not leveling the playing field.
RunRagged wrote:
The NCAA all-time record in the women's 500 free is 4:24.06, set by Stanford’s Katie Ledecky in 2017. The next four fastest times were set by Leah Smith (4:28.90, 2017), Katie Hoff (4:30.47, 2007), Dagny Knutson (4:31.18, 2009). and Brooke Forde (4:31.34, 2019).
Katie Ledecky: 7 Olympic golds, 3 Olympic silvers, 15 world championship golds, 3 world championship silvers, 14 world records
Leah Smith: 1 Olympic gold, 1 Olympic bronze, 1 world championship gold
Katie Hoff: 1 Olympic silver, 2 Olympic bronze, 5 world championships golds, 2 world records
Brooke Forde: 1 Olympic silver
Dagny Knutson: 1 world championship gold
Lenny Leonard wrote:
OFOOS wrote:
Lenny,
You say transwomen are women, as if (A) there is an agreed upon definition of what "woman" means, and (B) transwomen meet that definition. So what is your definition?
Well, for starters, I’d imagine someone like Lia Thomas has “F” on her drivers license. If you asked her if she was a man or a woman, she would say “woman.”
Maybe just ask the person? That’s my definition.
By that token, anybody can be a anything they claim to be - you are a "genius" if you say so, regardless of the evidence against it. I can be an American if I say so - even though I am not a citizen. I could be from Atlantis, if I say so.
When a person says they are a "woman" they are using a term of self-description that has a defined meaning for millions of others. How can they be a woman if they do not share that agreed definition of what it means to be a woman? They have simply appropriated the term and stripped it of its agreed meaning, so that it will mean anything they say it means. That is fine if you only wish to use a word differently from how others use it - but they don't, they wish to be included amongst those for whom the word "woman" means something. And it does not mean a person who is biologically male.
Got round to reading anything of intellectual depth yet.
Any probs with Rawls and I will help you.[/quote]
If you say you identify as a moron I don't think there would be any dispute about that here.
Transwomen are women. They should be in women’s sports.(quote)
How are transwomen women? What are your objective criteria for making that claim?
She is a great activist for equality in sports. Equity has to go
Armstronglivs wrote:
Transwomen are women. They should be in women’s sports.(quote)
How are transwomen women? What are your objective criteria for making that claim?
Go away.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Got round to reading anything of intellectual depth yet.
Any probs with Rawls and I will help you.
If you say you identify as a moron I don't think there would be any dispute about that here.[/quote]
Go away
Armstronglivs wrote:
Lenny Leonard wrote:
Well, for starters, I’d imagine someone like Lia Thomas has “F” on her drivers license. If you asked her if she was a man or a woman, she would say “woman.”
Maybe just ask the person? That’s my definition.
By that token, anybody can be a anything they claim to be - you are a "genius" if you say so, regardless of the evidence against it. I can be an American if I say so - even though I am not a citizen. I could be from Atlantis, if I say so.
When a person says they are a "woman" they are using a term of self-description that has a defined meaning for millions of others. How can they be a woman if they do not share that agreed definition of what it means to be a woman? They have simply appropriated the term and stripped it of its agreed meaning, so that it will mean anything they say it means. That is fine if you only wish to use a word differently from how others use it - but they don't, they wish to be included amongst those for whom the word "woman" means something. And it does not mean a person who is biologically male.
Go away
SDSU Aztec wrote:
The difference between the men's and women's winning 500m times at the last championships was 26 seconds. To date, Thomas has only slowed by 16 seconds, so clearly the hormone treatments are not leveling the playing field.
It's well-established that the hormone treatments that males who identify as women take - which is usually a combination of a testosterone suppressant like Spirolactone and high-dose estrogen, sometimes with progesterone added - do not "level the playing field."
Even when males who "identify as" women have their testicles removed - something very few of them do today, for good reason - they aren't magically transformed into the equivalent of women and they don't lose all the physical advantages they have over females in sports.
Males are hugely advantaged in nearly all sports over females because of a vast number of physical characteristics they acquire during the processes of developing as male in utero, going through the 5-month long "mini puberty of infancy" (when baby boys' T levels are as high as they will be in their teens), and the longer, and more well-known puberty of adolescence that is often erroneously depicted as the sole reason that males outperform females in sports.
With the exception of hemoglobin levels, none of the physical characteristics that males have which give them such a leg up in sports are reversed or even appreciably diminished due to the hormone treatments they take for "gender transition."
The idea that these hormone treatments do level the playing field is wishful thinking that comes from and has been promulgated by trans-identified males, gender ideologues and full-of-themselves people in the fields of "gender medicine" and "gender therapy" who want to give the impression that Big Pharma products (and cosmetic surgeries) can change human beings' sex, or come close to doing so, because the transgender industry is a huge cash cow that's raking in plenty of money by selling pipe dreams to unhappy people looking for a quick fix for their mental health and life problems. Unfortunately, the idea that hormone treatments level the playing field in sports has been taken at face value and spread further by gullible sports authorities, the media and much of the general public.
Also, no one knows what kind of hormone treatments Thomas might be on. The current NCAA rules only say that a male athlete must have completed "one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment" prior to competing in women's events, but they do not say that testosterone must be reduced to any particular level. Nor do the NCAA rules require that testosterone must be kept at a consistently lowered level throughout the entire calendar year. Also, the NCAA doesn't test these athletes' T levels or require independent testing. A letter from the athlete saying he intends to suppress T or is suppressing it already, and a single doctor's letter saying what meds have been prescribed, and documenting the athlete's T level at the time the letter is written "if relevant," are all that's required.
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/inclusion/lgbtq/INC_TransgenderHandbook.pdfRunRagged wrote:
SDSU Aztec wrote:
The difference between the men's and women's winning 500m times at the last championships was 26 seconds. To date, Thomas has only slowed by 16 seconds, so clearly the hormone treatments are not leveling the playing field.
It's well-established that the hormone treatments that males who identify as women take - which is usually a combination of a testosterone suppressant like Spirolactone and high-dose estrogen, sometimes with progesterone added - do not "level the playing field."
Even when males who "identify as" women have their testicles removed - something very few of them do today, for good reason - they aren't magically transformed into the equivalent of women and they don't lose all the physical advantages they have over females in sports.
Males are hugely advantaged in nearly all sports over females because of a vast number of physical characteristics they acquire during the processes of developing as male in utero, going through the 5-month long "mini puberty of infancy" (when baby boys' T levels are as high as they will be in their teens), and the longer, and more well-known puberty of adolescence that is often erroneously depicted as the sole reason that males outperform females in sports.
With the exception of hemoglobin levels, none of the physical characteristics that males have which give them such a leg up in sports are reversed or even appreciably diminished due to the hormone treatments they take for "gender transition."
The idea that these hormone treatments do level the playing field is wishful thinking that comes from and has been promulgated by trans-identified males, gender ideologues and full-of-themselves people in the fields of "gender medicine" and "gender therapy" who want to give the impression that Big Pharma products (and cosmetic surgeries) can change human beings' sex, or come close to doing so, because the transgender industry is a huge cash cow that's raking in plenty of money by selling pipe dreams to unhappy people looking for a quick fix for their mental health and life problems. Unfortunately, the idea that hormone treatments level the playing field in sports has been taken at face value and spread further by gullible sports authorities, the media and much of the general public.
Also, no one knows what kind of hormone treatments Thomas might be on. The current NCAA rules only say that a male athlete must have completed "one calendar year of testosterone suppression treatment" prior to competing in women's events, but they do not say that testosterone must be reduced to any particular level. Nor do the NCAA rules require that testosterone must be kept at a consistently lowered level throughout the entire calendar year. Also, the NCAA doesn't test these athletes' T levels or require independent testing. A letter from the athlete saying he intends to suppress T or is suppressing it already, and a single doctor's letter saying what meds have been prescribed, and documenting the athlete's T level at the time the letter is written "if relevant," are all that's required.
https://ncaaorg.s3.amazonaws.com/inclusion/lgbtq/INC_TransgenderHandbook.pdf
Great post, always good when you get down to the details.
It has been previously asked in the non NCAA world how they monitor T levels in Trans and how such methods would not be subject to manipulation.Me thinks that it would be quite easy.
Armstronglivs wrote:
Lenny Leonard wrote:
Well, for starters, I’d imagine someone like Lia Thomas has “F” on her drivers license. If you asked her if she was a man or a woman, she would say “woman.”
Maybe just ask the person? That’s my definition.
By that token, anybody can be a anything they claim to be - you are a "genius" if you say so, regardless of the evidence against it. I can be an American if I say so - even though I am not a citizen. I could be from Atlantis, if I say so.
When a person says they are a "woman" they are using a term of self-description that has a defined meaning for millions of others. How can they be a woman if they do not share that agreed definition of what it means to be a woman? They have simply appropriated the term and stripped it of its agreed meaning, so that it will mean anything they say it means. That is fine if you only wish to use a word differently from how others use it - but they don't, they wish to be included amongst those for whom the word "woman" means something. And it does not mean a person who is biologically male.
You’re really over complicating things.
There are actual trans people in the town where you live. They are a real thing.
Again, I don’t think we should allow people who don’t even acknowledge a transperson’s existence to contribute to the sports conversation. It is akin to someone who thinks certain races are superior to others being allowed to vote on school integration.