He most certainly did not. High carb fuelling (>100g/hr) has been around for a very long time. What he (and many other high profile athletes) did was use his platform to distort and exaggerate the science behind high carb intake during exercise to make money for himself and for his sponsor. Lying to the community he claims to love in order to line his own pockets is sociopathic behaviour and not something we ought to be applauding. He's done the same thing for many other supplements and gadgets. Roche and his fellow influencers are the least reliable source of unbiased scientific information on the internet.
If he had an honest bone in him what he would have said is that elite athletes tolerate high carb intake not because carbs are magic, but because their metabolic systems are highly developed. Copying their intake without having the same capacity is not advanced: it is premature and often unhealthy. High intra-workout fueling has its place, but only if you earn it first by building real work capacity. This is where “science-based” advice fails and becomes pseudoscience: it ignores readiness. High intake is not a goal. It is a consequence of mitochondrial capacity. Without that capacity, more fuel does not mean more performance: it means stress.
Moreover, what the research has found is that very high intakes do not improve performance. Even if you are able to digest, absorb and oxidise 120g/hr, all that happens is the muscles respond by oxidising less fat and more carbs. There is no glycogen sparing (and in fact, some studies have found that very high carb intakes may increase muscle glycogen depletion). So it's a pointless exercise. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul!
In ultra running - and it's mostly ultra runners who pay attention to Roche - exercise intensity is so low that you're using fat preferentially. So why risk gastro problems in an ultra by forcing down large volumes of carbs when there is literally no need to do so?
My first question is 'who David Roche' that there is 109 pages, so I had a quick look at last page. Still don't don't know.
But haven't we gone full circle, from Lore of Running and before. Basic biochem and physiology 'tell you' why carbs are essential for high (fast) performance, not so much for ultras. You seen many thin ultra runners (plodders) recently?
A good low 2hr marathoner , light and muscular enough, can actually carry his glycogen pre stored for the whole race requirements. The serious weekend warriors, sub 3 and maybe 4 do need in race fuel, and fat aint going to cut it. However, assuming from title, if you are talking Western States (not going to read 109pages), you don't even need carbs except some glucose for the brain.
But we are not re-inventing what humans have been doing 1000's of years , except that early hunters never exercised fast, their chases were extremely slow, waiting for prey to collapse. Running faster, for longer required more glucose. I digress.
But...here is the longer term problem. Many older runners used to such diets, suddenly find themselves pre diabetic and diabetic with skinny fit bodies. What the...yep. Keep pushing your physiological boundaries and systems start rebelling. Insulin starts behaving not the way it was meant to but on the expectations you have put it through for many years. Use it...or lose everything. Not a game of chance, because you had the inputs.
cheers
That’s because sometimes ultra runners and marathoners under fuel. Case in point look how skinny they’re. That messes with your insulin. They’d be best off eating more actually.
He most certainly did not. High carb fuelling (>100g/hr) has been around for a very long time. What he (and many other high profile athletes) did was use his platform to distort and exaggerate the science behind high carb intake during exercise to make money for himself and for his sponsor. Lying to the community he claims to love in order to line his own pockets is sociopathic behaviour and not something we ought to be applauding. He's done the same thing for many other supplements and gadgets. Roche and his fellow influencers are the least reliable source of unbiased scientific information on the internet.
If he had an honest bone in him what he would have said is that elite athletes tolerate high carb intake not because carbs are magic, but because their metabolic systems are highly developed. Copying their intake without having the same capacity is not advanced: it is premature and often unhealthy. High intra-workout fueling has its place, but only if you earn it first by building real work capacity. This is where “science-based” advice fails and becomes pseudoscience: it ignores readiness. High intake is not a goal. It is a consequence of mitochondrial capacity. Without that capacity, more fuel does not mean more performance: it means stress.
Moreover, what the research has found is that very high intakes do not improve performance. Even if you are able to digest, absorb and oxidise 120g/hr, all that happens is the muscles respond by oxidising less fat and more carbs. There is no glycogen sparing (and in fact, some studies have found that very high carb intakes may increase muscle glycogen depletion). So it's a pointless exercise. You're robbing Peter to pay Paul!
In ultra running - and it's mostly ultra runners who pay attention to Roche - exercise intensity is so low that you're using fat preferentially. So why risk gastro problems in an ultra by forcing down large volumes of carbs when there is literally no need to do so?
My first question is 'who David Roche' that there is 109 pages, so I had a quick look at last page. Still don't don't know.
But haven't we gone full circle, from Lore of Running and before. Basic biochem and physiology 'tell you' why carbs are essential for high (fast) performance, not so much for ultras. You seen many thin ultra runners (plodders) recently?
A good low 2hr marathoner , light and muscular enough, can actually carry his glycogen pre stored for the whole race requirements. The serious weekend warriors, sub 3 and maybe 4 do need in race fuel, and fat aint going to cut it. However, assuming from title, if you are talking Western States (not going to read 109pages), you don't even need carbs except some glucose for the brain.
But we are not re-inventing what humans have been doing 1000's of years , except that early hunters never exercised fast, their chases were extremely slow, waiting for prey to collapse. Running faster, for longer required more glucose. I digress.
But...here is the longer term problem. Many older runners used to such diets, suddenly find themselves pre diabetic and diabetic with skinny fit bodies. What the...yep. Keep pushing your physiological boundaries and systems start rebelling. Insulin starts behaving not the way it was meant to but on the expectations you have put it through for many years. Use it...or lose everything. Not a game of chance, because you had the inputs.
cheers
"If you are talking Western States, you don't even need carbs except some glucose for the brain." Interesting idea, and that's certainly the message being pushed by Tim Noakes, Andrew Koutnik, and fellow low-carb gurus.
The one thing you've said there that is correct is you do need glucose for the brain.
The runners at the sharper end of Western States are running at somewhere between 70-80% of HRmax. In well-trained ultrarunners, at ~80% of HRmax you’re in the “crossover” region where carbs become dominant, but fat is still contributing meaningfully. There'll be a lot of individual variation, but in a male operating at 80% of HRmax you'd expect the substrate split to be something like 30-35% fat oxidation and 65-70% carb oxidation. That balance is one of the key determinants of who can actually sustain a 14 hour performance at Western States without blowing up. And if you do the math, this means that an elite male, carb-dominant runner would require a minimum of ~90 g/hour.
However, it's been inferred that some elites have an extremely high fat oxidation at race intensity (40-50%). But even those athletes will require a fairly high carb intake.
Where it gets interesting (and where Roche fails on an epic scale to understand basic exercise physiology) is that in hot conditions (it can reach 40 degrees Celcius at Western States), the % of ingested carbs that you can actually oxidize drops by ~20%! This happens mostly because of reduced blood flow to the gut. In significant heat (like the canyons at Western States), a 90 g/hour intake might yield only 60–75 g/hour oxidized. So any shortfall in carb supply must come from muscle glycogen. Excess carb intake in the heat is likely to cause GI distress. In the heat, the gut becomes the limiting factor - not your willingness or ability to eat.
This reinforces why high fat oxidation is so critical in ultras (especially those taking place in hot conditions). You cannot use high carb intake to close the gap - you have to train your "fat max" (that's the intensity where fat oxidation peaks). To understand how to train fat max, Renato Canova tells us how to do that in great detail here on LetsRun!
And that's why most elite males aim for ~90 g/hour! No more, no less!
Where it gets interesting (and where Roche fails on an epic scale to understand basic exercise physiology) is that in hot conditions (it can reach 40 degrees Celcius at Western States), the % of ingested carbs that you can actually oxidize drops by ~20%! This happens mostly because of reduced blood flow to the gut. In significant heat (like the canyons at Western States), a 90 g/hour intake might yield only 60–75 g/hour oxidized. So any shortfall in carb supply must come from muscle glycogen. Excess carb intake in the heat is likely to cause GI distress. In the heat, the gut becomes the limiting factor - not your willingness or ability to eat.
This reinforces why high fat oxidation is so critical in ultras (especially those taking place in hot conditions). You cannot use high carb intake to close the gap - you have to train your "fat max" (that's the intensity where fat oxidation peaks). To understand how to train fat max, Renato Canova tells us how to do that in great detail here on LetsRun!
And that's why most elite males aim for ~90 g/hour! No more, no less!
the man has an arts degree in environmental science (yes, real degree), so he knows his poop.
Where it gets interesting (and where Roche fails on an epic scale to understand basic exercise physiology) is that in hot conditions (it can reach 40 degrees Celcius at Western States), the % of ingested carbs that you can actually oxidize drops by ~20%! This happens mostly because of reduced blood flow to the gut. In significant heat (like the canyons at Western States), a 90 g/hour intake might yield only 60–75 g/hour oxidized. So any shortfall in carb supply must come from muscle glycogen. Excess carb intake in the heat is likely to cause GI distress. In the heat, the gut becomes the limiting factor - not your willingness or ability to eat.
This reinforces why high fat oxidation is so critical in ultras (especially those taking place in hot conditions). You cannot use high carb intake to close the gap - you have to train your "fat max" (that's the intensity where fat oxidation peaks). To understand how to train fat max, Renato Canova tells us how to do that in great detail here on LetsRun!
And that's why most elite males aim for ~90 g/hour! No more, no less!
the man has an arts degree in environmental science (yes, real degree), so he knows his poop.
Now you’re hating on Dylan. You losers are obsessed with these people. Let me guess what is your problem with Dylan? First you hate on the Leadville GOAT now you all hate on the OG and the best trail running podcaster of all time? Really?
Now you’re hating on Dylan. You losers are obsessed with these people. Let me guess what is your problem with Dylan? First you hate on the Leadville GOAT now you all hate on the OG and the best trail running podcaster of all time? Really?
Why are these losers so obsessed with this thread?!
Now you’re hating on Dylan. You losers are obsessed with these people. Let me guess what is your problem with Dylan? First you hate on the Leadville GOAT now you all hate on the OG and the best trail running podcaster of all time? Really?
What do you think the word hate means? Should we ask Claude for a definition?
Was anyone around when Beth McKenzie (elite ironman) got popped for Ostarine? She is coached by David and based in Australia, now an elite trail runner. She claimed contaminated salt pills but was unable to prove it, banned for 2 years and didn't admit to it somewhere around 2016/17. Probably the wrong audience but I am curious if anyone remembers and whether the salt pills were legitimately contaminated in the court of public opinion.
Now you’re hating on Dylan. You losers are obsessed with these people. Let me guess what is your problem with Dylan? First you hate on the Leadville GOAT now you all hate on the OG and the best trail running podcaster of all time? Really?
What do you think the word hate means? Should we ask Claude for a definition?
She isn't coached by David, but she's been on the Freetrail podcast and gave a pretty thorough walk through of all of it for whatever that's worth. Interesting for sure
