50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

My jaw didn't drop when I saw those totals, but I did a re-reading to make sure I was really seeing what I thought I did. Of course something in my head now feels like I should try something like that.

lucKY2b wrote:

.. just wondering if I'm the only one whose jaw dropped after reading about Fred Zalokar's training regimen in the latest Running Times magazine? Would love to get Fred Z. on here to talk about how his body is able to handle 180 mpw at age 52, logging more quality miles than my weekly total. I realize a lot are treadmill miles, with many of those at a negative 3-degree pitch, but still.....and running triples.....just wow!

Any thoughts?

Do you have a link lucKY? I could not find the Running Times story. I did, however find this link describing the Berlin Marathon.

The man’s got all the bases covered. He’s not plodding those miles, he’s doing work to stimulate FT-A, and FT-B, although probably leaning more towards the slower side of fast twitch, A. More testimony that we can do more than we think we can. It’s nice to dream of emulating this training, but, in reality for me, and I guess, some others, it’s an illustration and a lesson to be applied to each of us at our own capabilities.

I just signed my wife and I up for the Grand St. Mile as part of the Drake Relays. Now on antibiotics for the 3rd day, so am starting my true recovery from USATF xc and hope to be up to a run later today. Doubt if I'll see 180 miles in a month, much less in a week like Zalokar, but I'll relish the miles I get.

Rtype wrote:Do you have a link lucKY? I could not find the Running Times story.

It's in the March issue, which I just received in the mail mid-week. I don't think they post current articles on their website. Thanks for the link to the Berlin article. According to the RT article, he has now completed all five Majors averaging about 2:36 for four of them (exception was NYC--2:50:44). Sounds like he averages more like 140 mpw for a more typical week, which is probably about double what I would ever imagine myself getting to....of course, I'm not so interested in racing marathons and beyond, either. His sights are on PR-ing (maybe sub-2:30?) at Rotterdam in April.

@Mike-Grand Blue Mile sounds like a blast! (I think it's Blue, yes?)

I was feeling reasonably pleased with myself until I saw this reference to 180MPWs :-).

Some good news for me. The recent travel afforded me an opportunity to see my surgeon while transiting home via London. My achilles appears to be ready to "run as much as you want". Also received a revised and upgraded strengthening program and extended program for glutes, hamstrings, and adductors. Travel did however play havoc with my health as I find it often does.

Sun: 2hrs very easy jogging on grass (unwell).

Mon: 50mins easy @ 10pm after getting home from airport.

Tues: 15min @ HR 90-95%max, 5min jog, 6 x 45sec hill reps (jog down)

Wed: 90mins (headcold worse)

Thurs: am 8 x 90sec surges, 50sec float rec. pm 35mins easy jog home from work.

Fri: Rest. still unwell.

Sat: 40min progressive tempo (average 90% max).

Have a good week all.

Solid week. 52 miles which is my highest weekly total since the December marathon. Still nothing structured.

Sun: 8, easy with the wife. 4x10sec hill sprints

Mon: 7, fartlek/ timed intervals

Tue: 4, treadmill at 9:00 pace

Wed: (AM) 6, with middle 4 miles all below 7:30

(PM) 5, group run at 8:00 pace

Thu: 9.5, hilly run, lots of climbs

Fri: Off

Sat: 12, group run that averaged 7:31 pace. Some climbs early, went nuts late. Fun to mix it up with the young guys.

Lifted and used bands on Monday and Friday. After a discussion with my PT today I am changing my routine. I'm dropping free weights and machines and expanding the use of body weight and bands. Also spoke with my sports med doc about the ShouldersBack decive that Salazar has Mary Cain using. I may try one for daily activities to help improve my shoulder carriage when running.

http://www.equifit.net/products/shouldersback-lite

Stay well and run well,

Edgewood

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Week 88

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Salutations, 50+ers! That was some nor’easter! Hope those in the New England area are safe and warm! Up and down weather here in the bluegrass, where we had enough excellent running weather that I made it back over 50 miles (51) for the first time in a month. The log reads as such:

Sun: 8.7 easy-to-moderate

Mon: 4 easy +postrun+balance+squats

Tue: 5.3 w/1.6@5:56 pace +upper

Wed: 7 w/5k in 19:11 (11:48 for last 2) + postrun+static+balance

Thur: 10.2 easy + postrun+upper+dunamic

Fri: 7.1 mostly easy +postrun+balance

Sat: 8.8 w/2.7@6:00 pace +postrun+static+balance

Reflections:

I was a bit sub-par this week doing the strength and balance work. On the other hand, when I do them, they don’t make me sore anymore, and I have gotten my mileage back up to where it was at the end of the year. The faster efforts have felt good; I feel reasonably comfortable running in the 5:5x range for extended (1-2 mile range) surges, although Saturday’s was a mistake. I had meant to tempo 5 miles in the middle at sub-6:20 pace, but after the first mile (6:16) self-doubt told me that there was no way I could keep this up for another 4 miles. The next half-mile was slightly downhill, and I cruised it at 5:45 pace, and my ego (or maybe my id, haha) made me try to hold pace for the rest of the mile as I came back up a hill (5:55), at which point, the writing really was on the wall, and I just ran hard until I ran out of gas (another 0.7 miles @5:45 pace). I finished with an easy pace for the remaining 4-miles, with the good news that the hip didn’t tighten up; I’m not out of the woods, but there has definitely been movement in the right direction.

I’m continuing in a fairly unstructured training mode; I had hoped to get into some lunges this week, but I remain a little leery about pushing the left knee; and I hope to get to hills and drills sooner than later.

One main observation---I’m still not that symmetric. In most the exercises that I do, there’s a noticeable asymmetry left vs. right. Whether it is the level of stability or strength, time to fatigue, smoothness of motion, or range of motion, the signs remain evident even after 6 weeks: more stable on my left leg, squats are stronger with my right leg, the left lateral plank fatigues less, the donkey kick motion is more fluid with my right leg, the hip drops fatigue faster on the right….all these things bother me. Hopefully, continuing these exercises equally and as symmetrically as possible will eventually level things out.

So that’s what’s going on in my neck of the woods, how are things in yours? Any spring races on the horizon?

Hope you all are well....and training likewise.

Training is boring but at least I can still do it and it makes me feel better.

Week of 2/4

Mon 30+ min bike, ave 95 RPMs, including 3 x 3:00 at ~ 75 aHRmax, RPE felt like 8.

Tue 30+ min bike steady ladder up to about 65% aHRmax, weights

Wed 30+ min bike, ave 94 PRMs, including 3 x 3:00 at ~ 75 aHRmax, RPE ~ 8.

Thur 30+ min bike, steady, 96 RPMs ave, ~ 65% aHRmax, felt like RPE6, weights.

Fri 2 x biopsy (arm pit & bone marrow) with 3.5 hours recovery, no exercise, light breakfast at 6:00am nothing else until about 7:30pm.

Sat no exercise, was told by surgeon to take a week off, disagree with a whole week, I reluctantly took today off.

Sun 30+ min bike, 94 RPMs, including 3 x 3:00 @ 75-80% aHRmax

A good week to all!

whoops, you are right, it's the Grand Blue Mile, (since the Drake Relays is all about Blue. Would I think that running on Grand might be on Grand St? What was I thinking! :)

The following Sunday are three road races that is also sponsored by Hy-Vee, a 6 km (really!), a 10 km and a 1/2 marathon, all with major prize money, the 1/2 with the most, including $12,000 to the overall winners! That would be a fun one to watch from the lead vehicle. Don't know why a 6 km, though. Between the three races, appears to be $120,000 (10, 30 and 80 grand).

Just an FYI that the 1 mile has only two turns, each of 90 degrees, and has only about 7 feet of elevation change, so for any of you guys and gals that want a bit of Tuesday night speedwork, there it is.

Another good and fun week of 55 miles for me.

Mon - 8 easy on hills

Tue - 8 easy on hills

Wed - 8 with 17x:30hard/:30 easy uphill from mile 2 to 4 and 4x1:00 hard at the start of miles 5,6,7,8

Thu - 8 easy on hills

Fri - 8 easy on hills

Sat - 8 with 4 very easy in the AM followed by racing a 1500 at my university team/alumni meet. 5:29 for the 1500, which was exactly what I thought I would probably run at my current level of fitness. Sadly, the 1st place guy on the team lapped me just before he finished, but great fun nonetheless.

Sun - 7 easy on trails

Just sat having a beer,did my first race for 21 years.

Nick Beer 10 km road race.

36 min 28 sec

1st in my age group over 55 yrs

13th out about 550 runners

slowest ever but fastest has a 55 year old !!!!

weather shit rain,cold and windy

Revision number n+1 to plan B:

Still a 30/30 plan ~30mpw on ~30 minutes a day

but with the idea of exploring decelleration.

Why because I enjoy looking for something new and useful.

The idea is that when your slow twitch fibers are fatigued the faster twitch fibers have to pick up the slack. The faster fibers then become more fatigue resistant.The problem is that getting to the point of recruiting the faster fibers without getting injured.

Volume is often used to do this ie Ed Whitlock's 3 hour slogs through the cemetery probably do this. I would get injured trying this even if I had the physically durability and mentally I just would not be worth it as I do not like LSD.

Long tempo,MP,Acceleration are another method.

The semi long tempo I used to do with good results. A weekly 6 miler at a JD tempo pace ,5k + 20 secs per mile. This workout really seemed to work well in my mid forties but recovery was tough. Just not something I am gonna do over the years.

So what I noticed about the above run was what I will call good fatigue. The last few miles of those 6 milers required a more concentrated effort or else I would slow down. I am not talking about increased heart rate to maintain the pace just more concentration.

So these last few miles of the tempo I believe is where I was building speed endurance. As the faster fibers had to do more work they developed fatigue resistance.

At 56 I want to figure out a way to get the benefit of this type of training without risking injury and doing something sustainable year round.

Hence:

7 day Decelleration training

Every day Warmup for at least 10 minutes

DRun pace for ~20 minutes

4 tempoish 20 minute decelleration runs followed by 3 ez pace runs

Day 1 6:26 5 secs per mile faster than JD threshold pace

Day 2 6:36 5 secs per mile slower than JD threshold pace

Day 3 6:46 15 secs per mile slower than JD threshold pace

Day 4 6:56 25 secs per mile slower than JD threshold (MP) pace

Day 5 7:40

Day 6 8:00

Day 7 8:30

alf tupper wrote:

Just sat having a beer,did my first race for 21 years.

Nick Beer 10 km road race.

36 min 28 sec

1st in my age group over 55 yrs

13th out about 550 runners

slowest ever but fastest has a 55 year old !!!!

weather shit rain,cold and windy

Ho LEE Ta MO LEE

85% prdicts a 10 miler of 1 hour flat 5k of 17:39

I did not post a prediction but was guessing about a minute slower. Very Nice Race!

10.5 Hr for the week, including 15.5 miles running (3 easy runs).

Skied a 6.5K race against a local masters and finished 25 sec ahead of an AG bud who had just got 2nd and 4th at US masters championships. He often beats me in the shorter races, so things are looking good for the distance races coming up (30K, 50K, 20K, 50K) in the next 6-7 weeks.

Interestingly I tend to do better in mid, medium long distance running (mile to the half marathon), but better in the the long distance skiing. My self analysis, I'm skinny for a skier but chunky/semi-muscular for a runner.

"I been through the desert on a horse with no name. It felt good to be out of the rain" - America

Headed south this weekend to today's Palm Desert Seniors Meet...about 20 miles south and east of Palm Springs.

Was planning to race 800 and then double back in 3000 but when I got there the said "oh, we decided to change the schedule of events this morning to make it easier for people to double" Well maybe for some but not for this old geezer cat...so I had to make a game day decision and pick one or the other. It was pretty dang windy so I knew both would impact times and as I have a) no expectations over 3K as I would at 800 and b) likely the only opportunity to run a 3000 all season, I opted for the 7.5 lapper...the seasonal half mile debut will have to wait for May at Bay Area Seniors Games.

At any rate, led from the gun and eventually lapped the field in what was nuthin' but a time trial...and a very very hard one at that.

Truth be told I am mostly just deeply thankful I can run every day and race on the track...even if times that are downright pedestrian by our 'glory days' standards

Oh, and, by the way, that old 70s tune I led off with? I actually heard it down there in the desert this weekend for the first time in many moons...not once, but twice...kuhRAZY!

Train don't strain,

MF

First. well done to Alf Tupper. That is a very excellent 10K time, particularly after a short 21 year layoff from competition. Second, well done to Mike F. I ran that Palm Desert track a number of years ago and it is OK but not a speedway; plus it's never easy to reset your race plan on the fly when you have mentally focused on a different event.

Week 88: 10 hours 38 minutes in 9 runs, 3 of them workouts.Tue 1 hr 35 mins including 9x hill repeat. I felt "done" partway through the 5th repeat, but reminded myself that alf was out there training on dead legs so pushed through to the planned 9th and it wasn't so bad...Fri 1 hr 15 mins on the treadmill, with 17 mins "tempo" at 7:19/mile (approx half marathon pace). This time I really was "done" at 17 minutes. The plan was 22-25 mins tempo but my right quad was seizing up, the only other time that ever happened was at the end of my first marathon, so I bailed. During reflection on the long cooldown, I wondered if the blood donation on Tuesday afternoon could have had any impact.Sat 2 hrs 2 mins long run, 6 miles north in 56 mins running with 9:00 pace group, 1 mile south in 9 mins with the same group, then 1 mile back north in 12 mins with the 10:45 pace group (I believe they were lollygagging), then 6 miles south in 44 mins solo. I meant to run about 8:00 on the solo part, was a little surprised that I averaged 7:20. I will start wearing a GPS watch on the long runs so that doesn't happen again. And I guess that means the Fri tempo "failure" was not due to Tuesday's pint. Maybe it was the Thursday strides?RE the March Running Times: Never mind the 145 MPW joker, to each his own. Instead I am all blissed about "An Elite State of Mind".

Toby Tanser said:

"People will look at other runners and say, 'That guy is the same height as me, the same weight as me, comes from the same town as me. Maybe I can do it, too.' So you have this group of positive-thinking people, and positivity spawns more positivity -- people encouraging you to do more."

.. quoted in David Alm, "An Elite State of Mind", Running Times, March 2013, p.51 [pp.48-53]

Good "first" race, alf. I'm cracking up thinking about the advice I gave you when you first started posting here.

I like the idea of a long tempo and the benefits towards speed. On fast twitch fibers helping when the slow twitch fibers become fatigued, say, on a long slower run, I think we need to delineate which type of fast twitch we are talking about: The A (intermediate resistance to fatigue and fast contraction time) or the B (low resistance to fatigue and very fast contraction time). First, I’m not arguing as any kind of expert and I’ll welcome correction; but my understanding is FT-B is FT-B and never will be anything else. However, FT-A theoretically can actually, to a small degree, be shifted to either the ST side or the FT-B side (this is debatable). A good tempo stimulates FT-A , but a long slow slog, or too many miles of slogging with no speed potentially could move some of the FT-A to the ST side.

So, on that tempo you (we) are using mostly ST with a larger number of FT-A fibers “helping” than with a slow plod, but those FT-B’s are still waiting on you to do something explosively (sprint, run up a hill hard, or even weights).

Again, I’m throwing this out for discussion as an amateur but I see 3 or more muscle fiber types, not just 2. This brings up the obvious question on how the amazing Ed Whitlock can go so danged fast off what he terms some pretty slow running. My theory is genetically he was given a good allotment of FT-B and he’ll always have that no matter what. The man is just fast.

Anyway I may be totally wrong and actually it would be good to hear from some of the real experts on cell theory. Long ago there were some threads so deep on this it gives you a headache to read, but certainly worth reading. And I’d be lying if I claimed to understand it all. No way.

So, in summary, I agree!

Rtype, as yet another non-expert, I agree that there is more than one kind of fast twitch fiber (A and B, I and II, maybe others). However, I'm not sure how much this science will benefit my training! Seems to be too much variation between individuals, and I for one have no idea of my own slow twitch percentage. I have decided that instead of taking some recruitment theory and trying to apply it to my training, I will just try out different training methods that have worked for others and see which ones work best for me. But to be cautious, I look first at the training methods of runners who are closer to me on the talent spectrum. Just my take.