LYDIARD OR DANIELS?

Nobby: Not directed at you, but to many who have contributed here; man would it be fun to get to know each other a little. Heck I don't even know if I know any of you who have been posting here. Maybe some can get to Flagstaff sometime, just to meet. I am hoping to bring all my subjects (from 1968) back next year for 40-year followup study. All 26 of them made it back in 1993 for the 25-year testing. What a great time was had by all, and sure fun to get to visit again with some of this country's greats in distance running. Maybe someone reading this can provide current addresses for some -- it was only fairly hard to get in touch 15 years ago, but I imagine a bit tougher this time around. Anyone interested in the full list of subjects can email jack.daniels@nau.edu Maybe I can attach a full list one of these days when I sit still for awhile

Well, Doc, it's a rather nice comment and I'm insulted that it wasn't directed at me! J/K ("Just Kidding", not John Kellogg)

I was just talking to HRE (who by the way felt bad whether he insulted you or not and so did I) last night and I told him that I would most probably have a chance to get to meet you sooner than later particularly now Greg McMillan's in Flagstaff and his involvement with Lydiard Foundation. We were talking about bringing Snell, Lorraine and Rod Dixon there to have some talk with his runners or something.

Greg sent me that DVD of your talk. Very entertaining. I enjoyed it very much.

The whole business of trying to assign a percentage to the amount of success or failure a runner has to a coach or to the runner is really just tossing around meaningless numbers. What people do and what made it happen is way, way, too complicated for something like that to mean anything. What percentage of the way you behave and feel is attributal to your dad's influence? How much to your mum's? How much to friends, grandparents, and to your own uniqueness?

Ron Clarke ran extremely well without a coach. So did Zatopek. Elliott has always maintained he'd never have done what he did without Cerutty and I can't imagine Sebatian Coe without Peter. People are different. But I like Nobby's point about the Japanese system and its emphasis on coaching. It provides consistent performances and has done so for a long time.

I for one have noticed that over the 104 pages of stuff on this thread, Mr or Mrs (whomever) Skuj has directly and indirectly taken hundred of shots at Lydiard system of training.

For the few who noted Nobby's rebuttal; Nobby need not apologize!

Nobby,

Keep up the professional work of spreading the knowledge of Lydiard.

Where 'jtupper' talks of similarities between Lydiard and himself and positives 'Skuj' looks for divisive matters, ESPECIALLY where they do not exist.

Lydiard or Daniels?

Too atagonistic for healthy exchange of information.

How about:

'Lydiard, Daniels, what WORKS for you'?

Nice! Real nice! 'taken hundred of shot at Lydiard system of training' I don't think we need to call Sherlock Holmes immediately. ;))

Dr. Enuff BS wrote:

I for one have noticed that over the 104 pages of stuff on this thread, Mr or Mrs (whomever) Skuj has directly and indirectly taken hundred of shots at Lydiard system of training.

For the few who noted Nobby's rebuttal; Nobby need not apologize!

Nobby,

Keep up the professional work of spreading the knowledge of Lydiard.

Where 'jtupper' talks of similarities between Lydiard and himself and positives 'Skuj' looks for divisive matters, ESPECIALLY where they do not exist.

Lydiard or Daniels?

Too atagonistic for healthy exchange of information.

How about:

'Lydiard, Daniels, what WORKS for you'?

Skuj:

No, please don't (e-mail me)! J/K! ;o)

Just so you, and anybody else, I do what I do because I want to. If I apologized to Skuj, that's simply because I thought it would be appropriate.

But here's a news for you, Coe-Martinite; I was just talking to Dr. Dave last week for a couple of hours at times in regards to his (and Peter's) book. And I made this statement, "...so just because Seb Coe didn't run 100 miles a week, that does not mean he wasn't doing the basic principles of Lydiardism..." And he said, "But he did!" You know, it's not "from the horse's mouth", but I think it's as good as coming from the mouth of the designated vet. So take it as what its worth...

I get accused for the one who's trying to say everything-that's-successful-is-Lydiard. I certainly don't mean to. I'm just trying to convey things I hear or I read that not everybody has an access to (Japanese books or what Frank Shorter said about Lydiardism, for instance). We've asked Dave to write something for our Lydiard Foundation website, so that would be interesting...

Nobby et al,

what did Frank say about Lydiardism? One of my favorite quotes from Arthur, when I was translating for him, was that (paraphrased as it has been years) "eventually everyone will be training using the same methods. The guy who wins on a given day will be the one who peaked correctly for that day."

Glenn

Glenn:

We met with Frank Shorter last summer (at his house--he was the reason why I started running so it was very specal to me). He was all supportive of our programs with Lydiard Foundation and he endorses what we're trying to do. He basically said, his mega-mileage (150 miles a week) and feeling-based training are actually corner-stone of Lydiardism. He said basically, as a distance runner, you cannot get away from running a lot to build a good aerobic foundation and that's what Lydiard has taught us. His letter will be on the website soon as well.

Most of the digs are subtle. Very subtle, just do your own search.

I did a search and found a grand plethora of Suj related controversy, about getting banned from different chatlines and impersonations and using many different psuedonyms. There is one post where you denying using more than a couple psuedonyms, then there is one where some troll impersonated you and registered your name so you said, 'with each new post will be a new name'.

and you also said you would never post as Skuj again, but here is a Skuj...are you him or her? I am assuming him.

You are a Coe Martin fanatic to the enth degree. Admit it.

Glenn,

That's a really good point. People treat these training methods as if someone went to the basement and built them, but it's more along the lines of Newton discovering gravity. Arthur just figured out how it works.

Dr. Enuff BS wrote:

Most of the digs are subtle. Very subtle, just do your own search.

I did a search and found a grand plethora of Suj related controversy, about getting banned from different chatlines and impersonations and using many different psuedonyms. There is one post where you denying using more than a couple psuedonyms, then there is one where some troll impersonated you and registered your name so you said, 'with each new post will be a new name'.

and you also said you would never post as Skuj again, but here is a Skuj...are you him or her? I am assuming him.

You are a Coe Martin fanatic to the enth degree. Admit it.

I AM A COE-MARTIN FANATIC TO THE NTH DEGREE.

And for one to adhere to a philosophy, one should deeply analyze all other philosophies to the nth degree. hence my presence on the pages of this thread, asking SERIOUS questions, and trying to get SERIOUS answers.

And, the Troll caused a lot of damage for me. Your post is proof of that.

Never mind the bollocks. Here's.....

...RunStrong:

RunStrong wrote:

Nobby (or anyone else), I'm sure this question has come up many times. In regards to building up to 100mpw, how long needs the buildup to be in the best interest of the athlete? I know a key aspect is the person and how he responds to mileage, but in your experience how many years did it take for one to reach 100? One year? Two? Three? How many years of moderate mileage makes sense? And if one isn't there yet, should they start doubling trying to make the progress of reaching 100mpw easier?

Glenn McCarthy wrote:

"eventually everyone will be training using the same methods. The guy who wins on a given day will be the one who peaked correctly for that day."

And at the risk of completely sabotaging any chance that I'll be poster-of-the-year, I couldn't disagree more with that statement.

IMHO, training will always evolve, and we'll always be comparing and contrasting and moving 2 steps forward, and 1 step backward, and training differently. The one who wins will be the one who a) prepared best and b) knows it.

Hey,

Forgeit it....Run and be happy....

Run, Run and again Run.....

You see, I always believed that running, training, was science and art. Maybe we have, or soon will have, 100% of the science figured out. There will never be any more discoveries or discussions or debates regarding the physical / chemical science. But applying that science will always lead to...um...threads like this for instance! :) In Film History, we have all the Movements - Surrealism, Neorealism, French New Wave, etc etc etc... The history of running is often (too simplistically I think) segmented into The Big Phases. ie The 70s was megamileage and the came The Coe Revolution and then we "woke up from that mistake"....The quotations remind me that many of these Movements in running were steeped in misunderstandings...People misundertood Lydiard for "jogging / 100MPW" and people misunderstood Coe for the opposite reasons. In retrospect, we see our mistakes.

This rambling post that I have inflicted upon you hopefully illustartes that we shall never train the same.

Skuj wrote:

The history of running is often (too simplistically I think) segmented into The Big Phases. ie The 70s was megamileage and the came The Coe Revolution and then we "woke up from that mistake"....The quotations remind me that many of these Movements in running were steeped in misunderstandings...People misundertood Lydiard for "jogging / 100MPW" and people misunderstood Coe for the opposite reasons. In retrospect, we see our mistakes.

Have you been paying attention? It's been well established that Seb did significant mileage.

Reading is Fundamental wrote:

Have you been paying attention? It's been well established that Seb did significant mileage.

And, did you miss the part about misunderstandings / mistakes we make when we interpret these philosophies? (I accapt that I may have written it badly.)

I also accept that the Coe-Martin book propogates these myths. There is a weekly mileage page in it that is waaaaaay out to lunch wrt the amount of running actually done. I wonder if, in 1990ish, these people had any idea about the impact of such "exaggerations". I did the math, and came to much higher numbers that Dr Martin and his man.

I dug out my old diaries to see how I did this. In the summer after my sophomore year(1972)in college I went from about 40 mpw to 50-60, finishing with a couple 70's. The I went back down to 35-50 or so during cross country season what with all the races and interval work we did back then. I finished out the year with some 50-70 mile weeks, mostly on the low end. I did mostly 50-60 through early 1973 with the odd 70 and had several very low weeks, (races, sickness, etc). I hit 70 in early May then went 60,80, 80,80,80,80,85,80,80,80,80,80,75,100,110,100 for the balance of the summer. Yes, I had this weird thing in those days about always doing a number of miles in a week that was divisible by five. Don't ask why.

That was prep for my junior xc season but this time I kept the mileage up throughout the autumn; 109, 81, (screwed up the 5's thing),94,90, 90 (I did a 30 mile run on the Tuesday of that week)90, 50, 90, 70, 90 30, (marathon at the end of the week), 100, including the marathon,100,103,90 and I closed the year out with 110. I did 3724 miles that year, I should have done one more and had a number divisible by 5 but what can you do after all this time?

So you see I certainly didn't rush to 100. I had thought of it as an attainable training goal for probably two years before I got there. I just made apoint of doing as much as I could handle comfortably. All of those 80s were training me both to race and to train more. I ALWAYS had a run of at least 15 miles in each week.

Who "coached" Shorter to his Olympic Medal performances?

Anyone...

I believe it was FS.